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DevianID wrote:Dont forget to add the 250+ points for the land raider on top of your 255 points for 12 DCA + Inq.

In that case 505 for the DCA + raider and 650 for the termies + raider

the thing is you want your unit to be dealy but also survivable so it can kill multiple things.

So far I have run my unit with 5 DCA, 5 Crusaders with Rad and Hammerhand.

They were able to kill a 10 Man Death Company squad with no casualties, then then took about 3 turn of firepower from a Land Raider Crusader, this took them down to 1 crusader and 2 DCA. Then they were able to charge the Assaut Termies (6 Hammers, 1 LC) with Shrike and a PW Vanguard (it was a team game). Only 1 Hammer was left after the first assault phase, and he died next turn.


All DCA is fine, if you can get them into a unit. If their transports dies, or if they can only kill one small unit, they will die to return fire before they can get to the meat and potatoes of the enemy army.

12 DCA with Rad and Hammerhand is far more deadly than you need it. Anything that 5 DCA+5 Crusaders+Rad and Hammerhand can not kill is going to be a LOT more points than they are and you should probably be shooting at that unit with other elements of your army to weaken it before you assault.

Vs the majority of shooting that the a CC style henchman squad will face, Arco's are more survivable than crusaders. More so if you have cover, which is not too difficult in most cases. Acros provide volume of attacks which helps dealing with hordes. They also ID t4 models when used in conjunction with rad grenades. They also allow the squad to deal with vehicles easily, even without an inquisitor.

Getting crusaders for mechenised melee henchmen, in most instances, is a false economy.

youbedead wrote:

DevianID wrote:Dont forget to add the 250+ points for the land raider on top of your 255 points for 12 DCA + Inq.

In that case 505 for the DCA + raider and 650 for the termies + raider

Or 250 points + 200 for a storm raven that's being held in reserve or outflanking. If most of the army is a gunline on the defensive a simple raven in reserve would work just fine as a counter assault unit with assault ramps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:S6 ap3=wound meq on a 2+ with no armor saves.

5th Edition favours vehicles. There are many vehicles in 5th edition, simply put.

How easily do virtually all of the units in the Grey Knight Codex handle MEQ (or TEQ for that matter), from strike squads to DCA's; Very easily. Do you really need more cheap anti-MEQ pie plates? I would say no. At the very least, it is worth investing points to reach AP1 - to make the psykers more effective at destroying vehicles - this also leaves enough spare henchman slots (out of 12 models) to field nearly any variety of melta-men, HB servitors, etc.

As for a more dedicated henchman only squad/armies, you lack force weapons, daemon hammers and dreadnoughts to provide high str attacks, which become very useful vs units like monoliths, landraiders, multi-wound models and even assault leman russ chassis.

With psycannons and psyfleman dreads GK have no problems opening light transports like rhinos or razorbacks.

Without psyker henchmen GK have absolutely no cheap anti MEQ pie (Optimal word there is cheap so OSR/heavy psycannon obviously don't count). Cheap pie will encourage the other side's MEQ to hide in cover and remain in maximum 2" dispersion. Hiding in cover and maximum 2" dispersion slow down MEQ units that are already dismounted from their transports, are of no use from massed ranged woulds inflicted by storm bolters/non rend psycannons, and is actually disadvantageous when it comes to CC with SS or Purifiers. A small amount of points invested in psychers will force the other side's MEQ to choose between giving the psykers optimal shots or assuming a disadvantageous position when fighting SS/Purifiers.

svendrex wrote:the thing is you want your unit to be dealy but also survivable so it can kill multiple things.

So far I have run my unit with 5 DCA, 5 Crusaders with Rad and Hammerhand.

They were able to kill a 10 Man Death Company squad with no casualties, then then took about 3 turn of firepower from a Land Raider Crusader, this took them down to 1 crusader and 2 DCA. Then they were able to charge the Assaut Termies (6 Hammers, 1 LC) with Shrike and a PW Vanguard (it was a team game). Only 1 Hammer was left after the first assault phase, and he died next turn.


All DCA is fine, if you can get them into a unit. If their transports dies, or if they can only kill one small unit, they will die to return fire before they can get to the meat and potatoes of the enemy army.

12 DCA with Rad and Hammerhand is far more deadly than you need it. Anything that 5 DCA+5 Crusaders+Rad and Hammerhand can not kill is going to be a LOT more points than they are and you should probably be shooting at that unit with other elements of your army to weaken it before you assault.

All true, I was just amazed at how killy DCA are, it's insane the amount of damage they can put out. It is more sensible to throw in a few crusaders. The DCA also make brilliant counter assault units. A 10 man unit could be held back and used to clear off any of the objectives and for 150 points you can afford to have them die

I think that a "Hench-Star" unit should have some crusaders in it, just to protect your investment.

[Hench-star: Large henchman assault unit, with an attached character (rad and hammerhand) mounted in an assault tranposrt (SR or LR)]



I think that DCA can work on their own.

I would take 5x DCA in a Psy-Heavy Bolter Razorback.


5 DCA kill 6-7 marines on the charge, they are super cheap, and the razorback can do the shooting at range, while stuff gets close.

For me I run primarily gunline GK. Having a stromraven with 7 DCA, my GKGM and a multimelta/DCCW dread certainly draws a lot of attention. Chances of actually blowing the thing out of the air turn 1 is improbable (especially if you deploy well) and it puts opponents into a catch 22 postion. Shoot the Stormraven, which itself puts out a hell of a lot of shots, and let the gunbase take a heavy toll. Or shoot the gunbase and allow a stormraven, dread and DCA to run amok.

Of course your opponent can try to find a balance in their shooting, but any shots that dont permanently damage the thing are kind of wasted.

Coteaz is complmented best by a Shooting unit.

Santuary has often stopped that charge and given me that vital time too shoot back, It makes charging within 3" a 50/50 Chance, and since it works for everything within 12" of him he effectively has a 24" bubble of protection.

I've pondered going for lot's of flamers and doing a suicide squads with Coteaz backing them up 12" away with Short range firepower. Coteaz might stop them from being charged and they might survive another turn, or they got shot at.....

Coteaz could compliment CC squads within 12" making them harder too charge, and more likely too get it themselves, but personally I think he's better for Shooting ones.

Danny Internets wrote:

Byte wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband does not take up Force Organisation Slots. It's in their entry, right under the title, before the stat lines.

but if Coteaz is taken, they may be taken as troops. So at best I could see it stretched to include 6 troop slots and one ban extra for each INQ included in the lists.

Just because they count as Troops doesn't mean you can selectively ignore their other special rules, such as the fact that they don't take up FoC slots. There is no doubt that you can take an unlimited number of henchmen units with Coteaz--it's right there in black and white.

Guess this was cleared up. I'm glad for it, it passes the common sense approach now. Its a shame that it takes a FAQ to define common sense.

DevianID wrote:Dont forget to add the 250+ points for the land raider on top of your 255 points for 12 DCA + Inq.

That's wasteful. You get 6 Troops choices. Don't make a deathstar; make a swarm.

Two units of DCA+Crusaders in Chimera will do more than one in a Land Raider.

Land Raider would be for non-Coteaz builds, which isn't relevant in this discussion.

Everyone keeps talking about DCA + Crusaders, but no one seems to remember my DCA + Daemonhosts. Those go fantastic in a Chimera more so than the Crusaders.

5DCA +5 Daemonhosts are t4 majority, which versus much of the things you will worry about is more protection than crusaders will be. Sure, there are times when crusaders are better at protecting the DCA, but not when your transport blows up for example. Also, if you do happen to roll a shooting power for the 5 daemonhosts, your chimera has 5 fire points.

Also, for razorback squads 3DCA and 3 Daemonhosts cost the same as 5 DCA, but offer a few advantages. First, they are more survivable initially, and second they probably wont wipe their squad out in the first round, giving you protection from shooting. Now that is very metagame dependant, but its still a worthwile option.

Another point, servitors are still s4/t4 4+ armor right? If they are, then whenever you have an INQ in the squad for rad nades and hammerhand, consider running a bunch of servitors to go with your DCA. So, for example, 5 DCA, 6 servitors, and your INQ with nades, gives you t4 majority, 4+ armor when your ride goes kaboom, and 6 s8 fist attacks against vehicles. I like the servitors better than the very expensive evis option, and 5 DCA + 6 servitors is the same cost as 5 DCA + 4 crusaders. You also get free MM switches for your powerfist attack! (again provided I remember the servitor profile correctly)

I love this thread. Anything GKPA can do, Henchmen can do better?

For instance, why the purifier spam?

10 Purifiers, 2 psycannons, 7 halberds, hammer, rhino - 319 pts. Can move and shoot 4 shots out to 24" at S7 AP4 rending BS4. In combat, 14 attacks at I6 WS4. The hammer does 9-14 dmg against vehicles, with WS irrelevant, 2A.
vs.
5 DCA + Eviscerator, assault cannon razorback - 185 pts. Can move and shoot 4 shots out to 24" at S7 AP4 rending BS4. In combat, 15 attacks at I6 WS5. The eviscerator does 8-18 dmg against vehicles, with WS irrelevant, 1A.
That leaves 144 pts for whatever - another psyfleman dread? Could replace 1 or 2 DCA with Crusaders for more tankiness as, after all, you probably want to take 2 rounds to kill stuff rather than 1.

Plus you need to spend 150 pts on Crowe, whereas Coteaz only costs 100 pts and seems to be more useful.

Another example:

An Imperial Guard Basilisk cost 125 pts for a BS3 S9 AP3 Blast.

2 squads of 6 psykers cost 120 pts for 2 BS3 S8 AP2 Large Blasts. One of them at least will pass their Ld test, and seem to me to be harder to kill than the vehicle.

Another example:
5 strike squad + psycannon or 6 strike squad harassment unit in a rhino. Same cost as 4 psykers, 3 plasma gun acolytes, 5 storm-bolter acolytes in a chimera which seems to be better. Or just the dirt-cheap 12 storm-bolter acolytes - 12 hits vs the 8 hits from a 6-man strike squad on the move.

Perhaps in the end though, the PAGK swiss army knife is better than the Henchmen scalpel?

DevianID wrote:Everyone keeps talking about DCA + Crusaders, but no one seems to remember my DCA + Daemonhosts. Those go fantastic in a Chimera more so than the Crusaders.

5DCA +5 Daemonhosts are t4 majority, which versus much of the things you will worry about is more protection than crusaders will be. Sure, there are times when crusaders are better at protecting the DCA, but not when your transport blows up for example. Also, if you do happen to roll a shooting power for the 5 daemonhosts, your chimera has 5 fire points.

Also, for razorback squads 3DCA and 3 Daemonhosts cost the same as 5 DCA, but offer a few advantages. First, they are more survivable initially, and second they probably wont wipe their squad out in the first round, giving you protection from shooting. Now that is very metagame dependant, but its still a worthwile option.

Another point, servitors are still s4/t4 4+ armor right? If they are, then whenever you have an INQ in the squad for rad nades and hammerhand, consider running a bunch of servitors to go with your DCA. So, for example, 5 DCA, 6 servitors, and your INQ with nades, gives you t4 majority, 4+ armor when your ride goes kaboom, and 6 s8 fist attacks against vehicles. I like the servitors better than the very expensive evis option, and 5 DCA + 6 servitors is the same cost as 5 DCA + 4 crusaders. You also get free MM switches for your powerfist attack! (again provided I remember the servitor profile correctly)

Servitors are NOT S/T 4


Let us take an example and see who is more durable

12 bolter hits

Crusaders take 8 wound, then lose 2.66 dudes
Daemonhosts take 6 wounds and loose 4 dudes (2 if the have FNP)



The issues is that you WANT to allocate hits to daemonhosts first. After only 1 dies, you lose your T4 majority. I think they are best used to protect a shooting unit. 3x Plasmaguns with 5-7 Daemonhosts would be good I think. This way you can loose a host or two and still be T4.

The Host shooting attack mesh well with plasma. You can either take on MEQ well, or throw out some high S shots at a tank or MC.

Here is how I run my Deathstar unit:
Librarian
Techmarine+Rad+Psychoke
DKA x 8
Crusader x 4
LRC + MM + Psy Amo

all for 755

Add Coteaz and Vindicare Ass and you have 1000pt core.

svendrex, yeah I mistook my servitors. Checked at home and saw s3/t3...

Let us take an example and see who is more durable
12 bolter hits
Crusaders take 8 wound, then lose 2.66 dudes
Daemonhosts take 6 wounds and loose 4 dudes (2 if the have FNP)

Flawed example. 12 bolter hits on a 5 man DCA 5 man Crusader, versus 5DCA/5Daemonhosts. We will ignore that the host unit costs 25 points less for now.

12 hits on the crusader backed unit is 8 wounds. 5 go on crusaders, 3 on DCA. You lose 2 DCA and 1.6 crusaders. Still need a morale check, total losses are 3.6 models.

12 hits on the 'host backed unit. 6 wounds, 5 on the hosts 1 on the DCA. .67 DCA die and 3.3 hosts die. Less if you somehow manage a useful power. Total losses are 4 models.

So as we see with my math, using your example, the 'host backed unit keeps more DCA alive when you get rapid fired. And because you are now within 12 inches from the rapid fire, you get the assault with 4.3 DCA instead of 3 DCA.

You are very correct in that the crusaders are better once your majority is lost. However, to that I still must point out that the hosts are cheaper, and my goal is to take lots of these squads. Plus every now and then you will get a useful power rolled up.

BTW, if you get cover, then now you have a 4+ save on your hosts compared to the 3++ on the crusaders.

For triple plasma, I dont know about hosts. For one, if your in a chimera then only 2 hosts can shoot out the top hatch. Also, t4 wont help versus plasma wounds. I would run 2 jokero, 3 plasma, and 7 regular guys if you wanted a better super shooting unit, as the jokero may give a useful buff like more armor or rending, and if you do get rending the 7 regular guys with lasguns make good use of it if you disembark.

DevianID wrote:stuff

The crusaders provide better defense from mutiple small units shooting at you.
The Daemon hosts provide better defense from one large unit shooting at them.

To each his own I guess, I have had good luck with the Crusaders so far.


I know that I can not shoot the Daemonhosts out of the top of the Chimera, but the extra durability provided by them means it would not be so bad to stay in the chimeera until I rolled a shooting power, then I get out and rain plasma and Warp Fire upon the enemy.

Granted this is a unit I have not tested out yet, so I do not know for sure it this works well or not.

Note on your suggested unit (the jokaero one). I already run something very similar. 2x Jokaero, 3x Meltaguns, 5x Storm Bolters.
Regular warrior henchmen come with Las Pistols not lasguns base.
Rending and extra range ar not that great for the plasma guns, but the Extra range is really good for the meltaguns.
Rending is for the heavy flamers and the Storm Bolters

So I'm trying to improve on the purifier spam list that seems to be the competitive thing to do.

In another thread I looked at replacing 6 purifiers in a rhino with a psybolt TL-assault cannon razorback with 5 DCA, which is cheaper, better in close combat, and shoots the same on the move.

Here's another idea:

2 groups of 6 purifiers, 2 psycannon, 3 halberd, hammer, razorback with psybolt ammo is 450 pts. They have:
12 men, 2 troops
4 psycannons
8 storm bolters
16 power weapon attacks, 12 at WS4 I6, 4 at I1
8 non power weapon attacks
cleansing flame or hammerhand.

Instead of that, replace with a tag team:

6 DCA in chimera.
6 purgation in razorback.
At start of game, DCA jump into razorback, purgation jumps into chimera. These 2 units are 390 pts. They have:
12 men, 1 troop (assuming Coteaz)
4 psycannons
2 storm bolters
20 power weapon attacks, 18 at WS5 I6
4 non power weapon attacks

The 60 pts saved could upgrade a Dread to a Venerable Dread. With the 50 points saved by upgrading Crowe to Coteaz, you could make the razorback(s) more shooty or upgrade the purgation unit(s) with hammers etc.

The reason for me looking at this is that I'm not overly impressed with the (on-paper) look of the purifiers in many close combats, especially given that if a purifier takes a psycannon he loses his power weapon attack, and because of saves being possible against cleansing flame.

Sethorly wrote:S
In another thread I looked at replacing 6 purifiers in a rhino with a psybolt TL-autocannon razorback with 5 DCA, which is cheaper, better in close combat, and shoots the same on the move.

Except I don't think you can put an autocannon on a razorback.

Yeh sorry I meant assault cannon. A psybolt ammo assault cannon throws out the same shots on the move as 2 psycannons. Original post edited.

What do you think of the DCA & Purgation units with Venerable Dread upgrade instead of the 2 Purifier units?

Well since you ask, I think DCAs are gimped by T3 and 5++ in comparison with purifiers. I say this as somebody who plays both Eldar and Space Marines, that T3 troops with a 5++ and power weapons are a glass hammer. You have to kill what you assault, because if you whiff it will turn around and kill you next round. Purifiers can plausibly take a charge and survive, can wipe out an enemy unit and then eat a turn of fire without dying, can use hammerhand against tough T5-6 opponents, and have the option to take a daemon hammer in case of walkers (I think purifying flame is for masses weedy opponents with crap saves--use hammerhand against enemy marines).

Also I think there's always going to be a problem with trying to get units into transports that aren't their own in turn 1. It prevents you from starting in reserve in your transport if you need to, makes you vulnerable to the odd indirect alpha-strike shot in turn 1, and prevents you from moving & then disembarking in turn 1 if you need to.

The DCAs can buy a razorback as their own dedicated transport. For gray knights who want to shoot out hatches, buy a rhino (another reason for getting purifiers over purgationizers, although you can always just buy a purgation squad with two psycannons instead of four). The three multilaser shots and losing fortitude aren't worth 15 points IMO. The only reason I'd take an inquisitorial chimera is to put terminators in it.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well since you ask, I think DCAs are gimped by T3 and 5++ in comparison with purifiers.

That's why DCAs need Crusaders.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well since you ask, I think DCAs are gimped by T3 and 5++ in comparison with purifiers. I say this as somebody who plays both Eldar and Space Marines, that T3 troops with a 5++ and power weapons are a glass hammer. You have to kill what you assault, because if you whiff it will turn around and kill you next round.

I've run some numbers to see how DCA and Purifiers do against Marines, FNP Marines (both have Hammerhand used against them) and Orks (having Cleansing Flame used against them). They completely reinforce what you've said. DCA wipe out twice as many marines, but then die. The Purifiers hold on into the second round by the skin of their teeth. Against Orks, Purifiers kill roughly a third more than the DCA. The lack of grenades compounds this glass cannon problem, you just can't assault DCA into cover.

What a shame!

If only henchman squads could be bigger. Would be fun to have 120 storm-bolter acolytes zerging up the field.

Sethorly wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well since you ask, I think DCAs are gimped by T3 and 5++ in comparison with purifiers. I say this as somebody who plays both Eldar and Space Marines, that T3 troops with a 5++ and power weapons are a glass hammer. You have to kill what you assault, because if you whiff it will turn around and kill you next round.

I've run some numbers to see how DCA and Purifiers do against Marines, FNP Marines (both have Hammerhand used against them) and Orks (having Cleansing Flame used against them). They completely reinforce what you've said. DCA wipe out twice as many marines, but then die. The Purifiers hold on into the second round by the skin of their teeth. Against Orks, Purifiers kill roughly a third more than the DCA. The lack of grenades compounds this glass cannon problem, you just can't assault DCA into cover.

What a shame!

If only henchman squads could be bigger. Would be fun to have 120 storm-bolter acolytes zerging up the field.

However the DCA are half the cost (not to mention it should be 8DCA/ 4 Crusaders)

youbedead wrote:However the DCA are half the cost (not to mention it should be 8DCA/ 4 Crusaders)

Exactly. I was trying to find a cheap replacement to the purifier/rhino unit, aiming for it to be about as effective but allow Dreads to become Venerable Dreads. Alas, it seems their non-durability and lack of grenades mean that this is not possible. It seems they need an IC with grenades, and crusaders or daemonhosts to be fielded. Or just used as a counterassault unit. Against an enemy that kills marines as easily as DCA, however, I guess they'll have a place by themselves.

Sethorly wrote:

youbedead wrote:However the DCA are half the cost (not to mention it should be 8DCA/ 4 Crusaders)

Exactly. I was trying to find a cheap replacement to the purifier/rhino unit, aiming for it to be about as effective but allow Dreads to become Venerable Dreads. Alas, it seems their non-durability and lack of grenades mean that this is not possible. It seems they need an IC with grenades, and crusaders or daemonhosts to be fielded. Or just used as a counterassault unit. Against an enemy that kills marines as easily as DCA, however, I guess they'll have a place by themselves.

You could always do 5 DCA/5 Crusdaers that way you still have that that 3+ save and your still destroying marines. A unit of 10 cost the same as a 5 man purifier squad with psycannons

I believe a half and half army, henchmen w/ melta or plasma and servitors w/ melta or plasma to benefit from shooting deep striking units. Place him in a Chimera to use the fire points for these and move forward to charge the enemy w/ Death Cults and Crusaders, maybe some Daemonhosts as well?

On another note, I take 3 squads of ten Psykers in Chimeras. Thats 3 S10 AP1 Large Blasts from 36" and because only a single Psyker is firing then you can use the fire points. Also w/ 3 Chimeras sitting still you can have 9 Multi Laser, Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber shots, not much stands against that alone.

Are you mad? Wheres the ablative wound, If you peril then your squad has died and given a KP away.
For a meagre 4P thats the best Investement.

Razerous wrote:Vs the majority of shooting that the a CC style henchman squad will face, Arco's are more survivable than crusaders. More so if you have cover, which is not too difficult in most cases. Acros provide volume of attacks which helps dealing with hordes. They also ID t4 models when used in conjunction with rad grenades. They also allow the squad to deal with vehicles easily, even without an inquisitor.

Getting crusaders for mechenised melee henchmen, in most instances, is a false economy.

Sorry but you are wrong. Against S4 fire (the majority of the fire against you) it takes ~8 shots to take down 1 Crusader whereas it takes ~7 to take down the Acro. Against anything higher the Crusader gets better and better, especially once you start hitting AP2 weaponry. Arco is only better in cover (which is not a place DCAs tend to go since they have no Grenades) and against S3. S no as clear cut as you make out. Simple fact is it is much easier to break down FNP or a cover save than it is a 3+ invulnerable. Furthermore once in combat (which is where the unit is going) the Storm Shield provides more defense than the sole FNP.

As for the combat 'facts' you posted; wrong also. Arcos are S5 so will not insta-death T4 models after Rad Grenades; even with an Inquisitor the point of the unit is for the DCAs to mop up which with 4A @ S5 each with no AS they should be. As for vehicles, well if you are charging vehicles with DCA units you are asking for them to die since their purpose to get stuck in with what is inside; if you want to be able to deal with vehicles stick in Melta Warriors with what space you have left in your transport.