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Melissia wrote:Maybe one single sentinel per squad, but not a SQUADRON of them. That's... wow.

Uhm.

117 sentinels in one list...

Even one sentinel per squad would give you 45 sentinels. All of them independent and able to target and fire independently after moving 6".

...I swear to God, if you ruin this for me I will not be happy.

LET SLIP THE SENTINELS OF WAR!

I think now the best option we can have is to create an alternative character/circumstance which allows for Sentinel 'Platoons' to be taken.

Maybe something like:
If your Company HQ and Troop Platoons/Veteran Squads are mounted in Chimeras then you can take a Sentinel Platoon consisting of 0-1 Scout Sentinel Squad and 3-6 Armored Sentinel Squads.
The Armored Sentinel Squads can further be broken down into "Outrider Attachments" and be considered part of a Chimera mounted Squad's unit.

Hrmh. That might be worth testing actually...

Sounds good to me! Sentinels are supposed to be in platoons anyway. I think a special character in an armored sentinel would work best, a sort of command sentinel at the head of the squadron.

I'd not accept a second "main" weapon attached to the sentinel, even if it is only a heavy bolter.
I don't want a copy of imperial guard eldar war walkers..
with a single heavy stubber, meltagun or flamer or stormbolter, I'd pay +5~10 points more for it.

motorhead1945 wrote:I'd not accept a second "main" weapon attached to the sentinel, even if it is only a heavy bolter.
I don't want a copy of imperial guard eldar war walkers..

You mean you don't want the Imperial Guard inspiration for the Eldar thieves and their Warwalkers.

with a single heavy stubber, meltagun or flamer or stormbolter, I'd pay +5~10 points more for it.

No flamers or meltaguns. They need something that retains their 'mobile fire support' role and something that could ostensibly fit in the chin mounting.
Flamers and meltaguns are close range and would be silly, especially on a 'scout' variant Sentinel.

Kanluwen wrote:I've been thinking for awhile about a Sentinel 'Hurricane' platform with twin-linked heavy stubbers or a grenade launcher underneath of the chin in addition to its main armament.

How about then (on armoured sentinels only):

Tempest Cannon System: This is a number of 'Stubber' type weapons all mounted onto the same tracking and firing system. This allows the Sentinel to tear into enemy infantry long after its main armament has expended all of its ammunition.

The Tempest Cannon System functions as a Heavy Stubber, but is Heavy 6 rather than 3. This may only be destroyed by a "weapon destroyed" result after the primary weapon is destroyed.

About 15 points?

S_P

I like the sound of the 'tempest'. Make it 20 pts, it sounds a bit OP for a mere 15.

-cgmckenzie

Also, remove the thing about not being able to shoot off the tempest. It's not required, and doesn't need to be there.

A single Sentinels squadron should be allowed to be attached to a platoon so sentinels are not competing for fast attack slots. This was possible in the old codex.

Secondary weapon on sentinels would be nice but nothing major maybe a heavy stubber or bolter.

Just make sentinels as an attachment to a platoon or HQ like in the old codex. Having the autocannon helps out bunches.

cgmckenzie wrote:I like the sound of the 'tempest'. Make it 20 pts, it sounds a bit OP for a mere 15.

-cgmckenzie

20p for 6 terrible shots that conflict with a sentinels main role? I'd pay maybe 5 points for that. 10 TOPS.

Id love to see a seintinel with an assault cannon. THAT would be awsome.
seintinels should have secondary weapons as the walker rule seems wasted without.
and i agree that the chainsaw should have a use maybe giving +2 strength and rending?
or just counting as a DCC.
the tempest sounds like a good idea for an armoured support seintinel but not a scout.
i like it.

I think that Sentiels work pretty well as is, but there are few tweaks that I would like to see.

An additional attack (or even the option for another) would make them that little bit egdier and reliable. Tarpitting while a viable tactic is dull and this would see them being able see off units a liitle better.

The option for a defensive weapon - unlike others i'm not that bothered about increasing their game effect but a (usable) modeling option like a H. Stubber or SB would greatly enhance the model. I really do love the Sentinel model but it is a little lop-sidded and chin or LHS mounted weapon would greatly enhance it.

For the same reason I would like to see HK missiles reduced to 5pts. It this happened you would see 1 or two mounted on most Sents. Quite realistic as well, at 10 points for a single shot their just isn't sufficient reason to take them.

As for takng them as options in an infantry platoon, I beleive that they did this in the 4th edition Codex. Not sure why this was changed out of the latest edition and kept in IA8? Personally I do not have a problem with sents taking a FA slot, but then I don't run Vendettas/Valks.

Currently the most sentinels you can fit into one Force Organization Chart is 27 using the Elysian List.

3x3 Squads in Elites make 9+6x3 Squads in Troops make 18=27 Sentinels walking around, although these are Drop Sentinels with Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta...

Kanluwen wrote:Really the thing that I've always thought would make Sentinels more 'bearable' is to remove the Armored Sentinel from the Fast Attack slot and make it an upgrade for a squad with a Chimera--but disallowing them a Heavy Weapon Team.

That's a great idea, actually.

I like OPs idea too though

I'm not sure whether its been mentioned but putting a grenade laucher on the sentinel would be good...

oh! i was thinking about making a thread like this, kudos to OP for being one step ahead of me

the way im thinking right now is that although the sentinal may or may not need a few tweaks, its still is a pretty good light gun platform that does pretty well on the battlefeild for its points cost. What DOES need tweeking is the Armoured Sentinal, as either it needs A: more guns, or B: needs a definte points drop. As far as im concerned the chimera and the sentinal are in the same catagory of vehicles. They both cost 55 points, both are used in a light infatry support roll and have the same amoured values... except, the chimera does it better. For the same points and armour, the chimera gets 1: Another heavy weapon, 2: The ability to carrry infatry, 3: A faster move range, 4: Doesnt take up a FoC space, 5: Allows an extra 5 Ad-hoc weapons to be mounted for free, and 6: Counts as troops when taking objectives.

here's what i belive that will make it on par with other choices on the imperial guard list without making OPed.

Armoured Sentinal: 1-3
Walker stats stay the same
+5 points per walker
-Heavy flamer is free
-The sentinal now carries a secondary stubber in addition to its main armament
-The sentinal may exchange the heavy stubber for a:
[5pts]Flamer, gernade launcher, CC weapon giving +1 attack
[10pts]Melta gun, hunter killer missle, twin linked heavy stubbber
[15pts]Plasma gun

The Armoured Sentinal may still take all of the same upgrades, including the HK missle (allowing it to have a maximum of 2 HK missles)

Reasons for adding these changes:
+5 points to overall cost to equip 2 weapons
-Secondary weapons are all special weapons so as not to become OPed. the weapons add flexibility to deal with diffrent problems and enhance the primary weapons rather then overshadowing them.
- The armoured sentinal should NEVER have dreadnought close combat weapons( unless its the apoclypse sentinal in the imperial armour volumes) Its a heavy gun platform that is able to deal with light infatry up close from time to time, not a walking sock'em robot like the dreadnought.

As for moving the the sentinal into the platoon supports, it sounds like a great idea might be a little OPed to take even MORE armoured choices so we might have to bump up the points cost for that accesibility.( course i also think the chimera/other guard armour should be bumped up by5-10 points also, but thats for a diffrent thread)
EDIT: word corrected in second sentence

king-newmic wrote: 6: Counts as troops when taking objectives.

Vehicles as troops can never score

you are right kenshin620, seems i jumped the gun. doesnt make them any less powerful though scince they dont take up FoC slots.

Vehicles with troops in them can score tho!

I dont think Sentinels are all that bad to be honest. With the scout move its nice. Plus you can outfit them differently for differen situations if you magnetize your stuff. I like running a whole squadron with either autocannons or plasma cannons against tactical marine armies. They seem to get their points back when I use them.

Use them to sneak up behind vehicle when they have autocannons

I like Kanluwen's idea of letting a Chimera-mounted squad take an armoured sentinel instead of a heavy weapons team.

My opinion... troop squads may buy an armored sentinel or scout sentinel INSTEAD OF a chimera. In terrain where a chimera would get bogged down, the platoon is issued a sentinel as mobile support to replace the squad's lost chimera.

In platoons, all sentinels must be combined into a single unit, meaning if you take the max 5 squads + command you get 6 sentinels in one unit... not 6 single sentinels.

As for armored sentinels, while I agree they seem pricey, that is only because guard get such a crazy discount on good vehicles. The armored sentinel will never outperform a hydra, I think we should just deal with it. If vendettas and hydras and manticores et all were more expensive you would be seeing a lot more armored sentinels.

@ Original post: small thing, really, but if you want to replace the heavy bolter with a flamer, you'll need a heavy bolter to begin with.

@ Kanluwen page 1: The Eldar War Walker doesn't need any extra or special rules as long as you arm it with the only Eldar heavy weapon that's not overpriced.

Mahtamori wrote:
@ Kanluwen page 1: The Eldar War Walker doesn't need any extra or special rules as long as you arm it with the only Eldar heavy weapon that's not overpriced.

Which is not what I'm about. I don't like this playstyle where every decision is made based on how best to squeeze the stone until blood runs from it. I don't like this idea percolating that is nothing but "super-effectiveness".

I'm all about being able to field what people want, and it should be just as effective as anything else albeit at different roles.

DevianID wrote:My opinion... troop squads may buy an armored sentinel or scout sentinel INSTEAD OF a chimera. In terrain where a chimera would get bogged down, the platoon is issued a sentinel as mobile support to replace the squad's lost chimera.

Fwoosh. Right over your head.
Sentinels are commonplace in Armored Regiments, where the Sentinels provide scouting/target acquisition support and then mobile fire support capability for the troops.
Why? Because dug-in heavy weapons teams(aka: the thing I want to allow to be replaced) are a liability in mobile warfare.

In platoons, all sentinels must be combined into a single unit, meaning if you take the max 5 squads + command you get 6 sentinels in one unit... not 6 single sentinels.

Then what's the point of your first post? You don't issue a platoon Sentinels because a squad can't take a Chimera.

As for armored sentinels, while I agree they seem pricey, that is only because guard get such a crazy discount on good vehicles. The armored sentinel will never outperform a hydra, I think we should just deal with it. If vendettas and hydras and manticores et all were more expensive you would be seeing a lot more armored sentinels.

What in the flying feth do Hydras and Manticores have to do with anything? Heavy Support choices v. FA=not really comparable.

Then let's not forget they and the Vendettas each have a different role, fluffwise and tabletopwise, to Sentinels. Hydras shred infantry+light armor, Manticores are just all-around "Bring it on" vehicles, and Vendettas are dedicated anti-tank bust 'em ups.

Sentinels are platoon level assets not regimental like Hydras, Manticores, and Vendettas. That is what needs to be taken into consideration when comparing Sentinels to those, not to mention the fact that Sentinels are supposed to be engaging flanks and harrying the foe all along the way. It's not "Oh we need a good alpha strike unit--gogo Sentinels".

Kan is, as always, correct.

So, scince no one has any bad thoughts on adding a second weapon to the sentinal, i guess everyone agrees on it...?

Another point also is if you allow platoons to take sentinals will it be scout or armoured or both? Maybe a rule that says you may replace up to 3 heavy weapons teams with a sentinal squad?

master of ordinance wrote:Id love to see a seintinel with an assault cannon. THAT would be awsome.
seintinels should have secondary weapons as the walker rule seems wasted without.
and i agree that the chainsaw should have a use maybe giving +2 strength and rending?
or just counting as a DCC.
the tempest sounds like a good idea for an armoured support seintinel but not a scout.
i like it.

Sentinels used to have Assault Cannons, I would love it if they came back.

I think it would be cool if the Sentinels could take 2 heavy weapons but the Strength of the 2 weapons combined could not exceed 11. For example, you could have 2 Heavy Bolters (5+5=10), an Autocannon and a Heavy Stubber (7+4=11), or just a Lascannon. Missile Launchers would be considered Str6 for this rule.

Sentinel Secondary Weapon options:

None: Default
Twin Linked Bolter: +5 Points
Heavy Bolter: +10 Points
Meltagun: +10 Points
Plasma Gun: +15 Points
Enhanced Engine: (Scout Sentinel Only)+20 Points*

Enhanced Engine: Some Sentinels forsake the additional firepower granted by a Secondary Weapon for an additional speed burst. Taking this upgrade allows the Sentinel to move 9 inches in the Movement Phase, but if it does so it may not shoot in the following shooting phase. If one Sentinel in the Squadron takes this, the entire Squadron must. This upgrade does not help Scout Moves.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Sentinel Secondary Weapon options:

None: Default
Twin Linked Bolter: +5 Points
Heavy Bolter: +10 Points
Meltagun: +10 Points
Plasma Gun: +15 Points
Enhanced Engine: (Scout Sentinel Only)+20 Points*

Enhanced Engine: Some Sentinels forsake the additional firepower granted by a Secondary Weapon for an additional speed burst. Taking this upgrade allows the Sentinel to move 9 inches in the Movement Phase, but if it does so it may not shoot in the following shooting phase. If one Sentinel in the Squadron takes this, the entire Squadron must. This upgrade does not help Scout Moves.

I like it, but the Plasma gun should not be more expensive than the Heavy Bolter (imo). Also, Enhanced Engines is really expensive. I would make it so they can move an additional inch (like the Orks) but it can still shoot. The +1" to moving could be worth around 10 points.