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BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.
There's about 1,000 chapters so there's about a million Astartes. There's about a million Imperial Worlds. Astartes are depicted as Angels in Imperial Culture (and The Great Heresy is based on The Christian war in Heaven. Emperor=God. Horus=Satan Astartes=Angels). So like each person supposedly has their own Guardian Angel in the Imperium supposedly every world has its own Guardian Astartes. Of course, both are untrue.

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.


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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Yes actually.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.

To make a long debate short, take SM army list and count all the marines in there. Include all commanders of the chapter, vehicle crews, specialist and veterans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Upon closer examination the 1,000 rule appears to be a rough guideline for the number of line infantry in a chapter. However no chapter is ever at full strength. So overall the average number of Space Marines in Chapters around the galaxy remains about 1,000.

So the reason they don't have more than 1000 is because they always suffer casualties and they are never at full strength?

Yes.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

You understand it all wrong.

It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

For that, I always thought that Chapter ( when they got permission or blessing from AM and HL ) when forming a successor give command of it to their best captain ( like Imperial Fist giving command of Black Templars to their finest champion ). It seems I was wrong and new leaders are pointed by someone else...

You cannot use the 2nd founding as a basis for further founding, as it was unique due to the events that lead to it. The second founding had no new marines, it was about splitting the legions.

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

Vehicle crews don't exist in the army list.

The army list isn't fluff.

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

No. He didn't.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
It would help if you wrote in an understandable way and help even more if you didn't change tack and back peddle when you are proven wrong. Reread what i quoted from you and what i said, you will find that i was understanding it well.

I was not wrong, I said that Chapters request the founding of a new. You said that they send a petition - that's the same as requesting.
I was only wrong about commanders. I look upon Imperial Fist who gave command of Black Templars to their champion. I though every other chapter does this, I thought wrond.

I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

Brother Coa wrote:Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

THe first and second foundings are completely seperate and done in totally different ways to every other founding. Chapters have no say in what geneseed stock is used in new foundings.

BluntmanDC wrote:
You cannot use the 2nd founding as a basis for further founding, as it was unique due to the events that lead to it. The second founding had no new marines, it was about splitting the legions.

Ok, my mistake. Then how someone is becoming a chapter master to a new chapter?
He wins an Imperial loto?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

He didn't say they did petition.
A new chapter has the gene-seed of a primarch not another chapter.
The High Lords or whoever is overseeing the founding appoints the Chapter Master.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The army list isn't fluff.

Not a fluff? Seriously

Then this thread has no point. 1000 marines per chapter it is ( BT and SW are exception ).
So Imperium have 1.000.000 SM, more or less.

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

Brother Coa wrote:
So Imperium have 1.000.000 SM, more or less.

-∞ < 1,000,000 < ∞

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He understands fine. You don't. The chapters themselves don't decide when new ones are created, and have not influence, other than PERHAPS, training new recruits. Everyting else is handled by The Ad Mech.

Petition is same as request.

Slightly different actually, but there's no need to be pedantic as I said nothing about any possible differences in the above quote.

That's entirely different. The Imperial Fists were SPLIT UP. They had to give command to their best guy as he was the best candidate.

Why different? Because they where split up? The new chapter is having the geenseed of the old chapter, it is natural to assume that they will appoint someone as new chapter master. And if he is not appointed by them then who is appointing them?

Yes, it is different because they were split up rather than completely newly built. Yeah, someone, a veteran from the first company, not a Captain and an entire fething company, how does the source chapter replace him? Likely decided within the new chapter, independent of any other outside force.

Army List? As in a player made one? That's not an indication.

Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Sorry what? Army Lists? As in, the lists a player CREATES HIMSELF? Why would that give even the slightest indication of any sort of numbers?

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

The only example of a successful petition was for the founding of The Disciples of Caliban by Anaziel, which as described as 'unheard of for a Chapter Master to make such a request'. So it is very, very rare.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I said that petitioning the High Lords was RARE and even in the few instances it would have happened the usual answer would be no, please read peoples posts this is getting ridiculous.

How RARE? One in 1000 years? 2000?

The only example of a successful petition was for the founding of The Disciples of Caliban by Anaziel, which as described as 'unheard of for a Chapter Master to make such a request'. So it is very, very rare.

Thanks, I really thought that making a chapter is easier. Is it like that because they don't trust the SM? ( because of HH? )


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iproxtaco wrote:
Aren't all army lists standardizes by GW and rules?

Sorry what? Army Lists? As in, the lists a player CREATES HIMSELF? Why would that give even the slightest indication of any sort of numbers?

What do you mean by 'army list then'?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

Inquition can also made Space Marine chapters? I thought they only busy themselves with GK and that other chapters must petition to make another one, or the situation is so desperate for others to be made. What chapter have they founded?

Both points are wrong. Chapters are not made all the time, and The Inquisition do not make chapters whenever they feel like it.


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They made the Excorsists.

iproxtaco wrote:What do you mean by 'army list then'?

Army list, like: 1'st company, 2'nd company, 3'rd company, Command etc...

Don't have one for every company of every chapter though, do we?

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to get to the bottom of Coa but new Chapters are made all the time. They're made by The Inquisition whenever they feel like it. I can't think of a situation where a chapter would petition the high lords to split his chapter. If a chapter master finds he's got a few spare Marines lying around: he'll just keep them.

Inquition can also made Space Marine chapters? I thought they only busy themselves with GK and that other chapters must petition to make another one, or the situation is so desperate for others to be made. What chapter have they founded?

The Inquisition has only one recorded piece of fluff about founding a chapter and that is the Exorcists. However the Lord of the Inquistion is usually a member of the High Lords of Terra anyway and the founding of the Exorcists was fully supported by the Ad Mech as well, so it is a bad example.

Chapters pay a tithe of geneseed. It's stored somewhere (probably Mars) and when The IoM deems it neccesary they will create a chapter. Now whether its The High Lords who give the order or The Inquisition I'm not sure but I was under the Impression it was the Inquistion. Pretty much every founding after the second was made this way.

It isn't the Inquistion, their job is to fight the enemies of man and root out corruption, it is not to govern. The High Lords rule the IoM, they make all the important decisions (which includes foundings).

The Inquisition has plenty of power to effect governing. And just beause they aren't governors doesn't mean that they wouldn't have the authority to start an Astartes chapter.

I'm not saying they do, just that the two aren't logically contradictory.