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resime?

purplefood wrote:resime?

This:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:resime?

This:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

I was actually wondering what you meant...
Resime isn't a word.

I didn't know how to spell it, thought it was the right word...
Let's call it a research results....

purplefood wrote:resime?

I'd guess he meant resümee thats summary for you guys.

1hadhq wrote:

purplefood wrote:resime?

I'd guess he meant resümee thats summary for you guys.

I know what resume means thanks.
Summary makes much more sense...

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

Kilkrazy wrote:

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

No strictly enforced "legal" limits. More a traditional way of organizing kept and only those that stray too far ( HuronB., tyrant of badab ) caught and taken care of.

From Rowboat G. in Age of Darkness said about his newly written codex:

'but your teachings'
'Are yet flawed', said Gulliman. 'No one,not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.'

Enforcing a exactly defined "legal" limit would not be in the spirit of the codex...

I'm not sure that drawing up a TO&E counts as sparks of heroism on the battlefield.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

Which would go against the Codex Astartes.

1st company = veterans
2nd-5th companies = battle companies
6th-9th companies = reserve companies
10th company = scout company

With the exception of the scout company, each of these is restricted to 100 combat-ready Astartes plus command personnel (captain, chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer, etc).

The 1000 limit does not seem to also include the command staff based on the codex's organization chart-- headquarters staff as it were are shown to be outside of the 1000 marines.

The headquarters staff would seem to be be the chapter master, the ten captains (senior officers), techmarines, librarians, and non-combat personnel in the form of serfs. It probably doesn't itself exceed 50 or so.

I think the codex astartes IS enforced on younger chapters, but older ones such as Space Wolves and Black Templars get away with things that other chapters can't because of their history.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

The point I am trying to get at is there is either a "legal" limit to the size of an SM chapter, or there isn't. I was under the impression that the legal limit was 1,000 and it was pretty strictly enforced. I don't mind if the legal limit is 1,357 or something, but no-one seems to know what it actually is.

Perhaps GW have never stated the limit.

The reality is that the games designers who came up with the idea of a hard personnel limit of 1k per chapter didn't really have any experience of logistics. Which is why space marines actually have 10 men in a squad, 10 squads in a company, 10 companies in a chapter . . . but each company has a command squad and a captain, and the chapter has some librarians and chaplains and techmarines and dreadnoughts . . . and presumably they need 20 more space marines per company to drive the rhinos and 3 space marines or so to operate every tank . . .

Various authors have tried to explain this sort of thing, adding in mortal support staff, etc but there still seem to be a lot of gunships and vehicles being flown by mysterious, nameless marines who don't get the 'face time' of squad members. Perhaps you could explain it with the space marines' (bizarre) system of 4 battle companies and then reserve companies, who presumably provide the drivers.

So there is no 'actual' number of space marines, because the people who determine that number never really thought it through. Don't even get me started on how impractical it would be to replace casualties in such small forces with such long training pipelines, or why the imperium seems to use them as front line infantry.

Sorry, but I was just reading some short stories about space marines. They all seem to lose half their men whenever they do a mission. They should have been wiped out by attrition long since.

Just saying it one more time, scale and logistics in 40k is not meant to stand up to scrutiny. The numbers are only written in for the look of the thing.

I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

purplefood wrote:

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

I credit myself with not having to read internet forums, just pay attention to the fluff.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

This. It has been said there is less than 1 Space Marine for every world in the Imperium.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you wanted to make a larger chapter, just make more reserve companies or larger reserve companies.

Which would go against the Codex Astartes.

1st company = veterans
2nd-5th companies = battle companies
6th-9th companies = reserve companies
10th company = scout company

With the exception of the scout company, each of these is restricted to 100 combat-ready Astartes plus command personnel (captain, chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer, etc).

The 1000 limit does not seem to also include the command staff based on the codex's organization chart-- headquarters staff as it were are shown to be outside of the 1000 marines.

The headquarters staff would seem to be be the chapter master, the ten captains (senior officers), techmarines, librarians, and non-combat personnel in the form of serfs. It probably doesn't itself exceed 50 or so.

I think the codex astartes IS enforced on younger chapters, but older ones such as Space Wolves and Black Templars get away with things that other chapters can't because of their history.

OK that means we are back to 900 SMs plus command staff per chapter. Assuming one command model per nine SM models, we have our 1,000 SMs per chapter. Excepting the few chapters like BT who refuse to follow the codex.

Given the chapters who are below full strength, the number of SMs is probably between 750,000 and 1,000,000.

Yeah, We've come full circle.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:I believe there are 1,000,000 space marines, composing 1000 chapters. Meaning one space marine per world of the Empire.

Which is not even close to being enough.

Good job on reading the rest of the thread.

I credit myself with not having to read internet forums, just pay attention to the fluff.

I was pointing out how that has already been mentioned and then disproved several times in this thread alone.

All right, I have done a little counting with Blood Andgels army as they are "the first legion to adopt codex astartes and to follow it accordingly." Here is total summary:

Tactical Squads - 44x5, x10 = 220, 440
Assault Squads - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Devastators - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Scouts - 10x5, x10 = 50+56 Unassinged Neophytes = 106 total, 156
Veterans - 101
Techmarines - 35
Chaplans - 13
Sanguinary priest - 21
Sanguinary Guards - 29

Total = 705 ( with 5 marines per squad )

With 10 per squad = 1155 ( with 10 marines per squad )

Predators - 20+18 Ball Predators = 38 total
Vindicators - 5
Whirlwind - 7
Land Raiders - 43
Drednoughts - 21+10 Furioso = 31 total

So that's 1155 marines if each tactical, assault and devastator squad have 10 marines. In addition to all of this, every company or strike force have 1 squad of Death Company with them. That makes 14 more squads of Death Company to this number...

So the Blood Angels have a little more than 1200 marines. I have also done by number x5 per squad, but the codex states it should be 10 per squad, aldo this number is not stable because of the losses.

And this is the chapter that follow codex astartes accordingly.

Let's look at the Space Marine Codex?

1st Company = 97 marines, + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (so 106-111)
2nd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (113 as per Fall of Damnos)
3rd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (108-113)
4th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
5th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 1 Dread (107-112)
6th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
7th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 3 Dreads (109-114)
8th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad (105-110)
9th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 7 Dreads (112-117)
10th Company = ? No set size ?

Chapter Command = 29 + 1 Chaplain per Company (or just Battle Company?) (35-40)
Fleet Command = min of 1 SM per vessel (54+)
Apothecarion = 13
Librarius = 28
Armoury = not sure if rank marines drive these or they are assigned personnel (28-136)

So that's a minimum of 1138, max of 1291 (neither number includes scouts or any additional fleet personnel) for the Ultramarines

Do Dreads count?

Kilkrazy wrote:Do Dreads count?

Don't know... I made sure the numbers were transparent so that you could include/exclude them at desired (I did include them in the totals). I certainly think they should count, but the Codex makes it clear that they just serve the company they were part of outside the normal squad matrix. So would I count them as strength... you bet (maybe as more than one marine)!, but as part of the "core" number of a Codex Chapter, probably not (though most Chapters, clearly, have them).

Sorry if this has already been posted but in the 4th edition rulebook it says there is "less than one space marine for every world in the imperium", and "Just over one million worlds" in the Imperium, so I assumed that meant about a milliion space marines.

Ashryu wrote:Sorry if this has already been posted but in the 4th edition rulebook it says there is "less than one space marine for every world in the imperium", and "Just over one million worlds" in the Imperium, so I assumed that meant about a milliion space marines.

You got it all wrong. If it says: "less than one space marine for every world in the Imperium", that means that there isn't even 1 Space Marine per Imperial world. Maybe there are half Marine per Imperial world. Less than one means less than one, half, quarter, witch just raise their numbers anyway...