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Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

I don't see how you figure that. Regardless, I'm not sure I subscribe to Mel's reserve company theory anyway.
Anyways besides that, in the latest retcon the 10th scout company can be any size. It's kinda dumb, like the 10th company could be 600 guys . This is because now "scout" means "new guy". In real life a scout is not an FNG he's usually one of your better men. I preferred the old fluff where scouts were elite specialists still beholden to codex Astartes rather than trainees on the farm team.

The lack of definition in the information about the most well covered faction makes me despair of ever finding a good answer to the question.

There isn't that much murkiness. Somehow Dakka makes things less clear. There's about one thousand chapters, one thousand strong - GW has said directly a thousand times.

Yes but what does 1,000 strong mean?

I was under the impression that the point of the Codex Guillimanus was to split the SMs down and limit their numbers in order to prevent rebellions.

A chapter of 1,000 infantry plus undetermined numbers of vehicle crews and librarians who can be fielded as infantry is not limited.

A chapter of 1,000 all ranks and capacities is limited.

I have this to add:

Blood Angels codex page 9 shows a breakdown of the chapters forces.

"For logistical reasons each squad is assumed to have a nominal strength of 10 battle-brothers, although battlefield attrition and instability caused by the flaw inevitably reduces this tally. .... Each company will also have a death company, although this is considered an auxiliary force".

This shows two things, that Death Company are not considered marines and that their are 'auxiliary' forces. Presumably not a rare thing in the Imperium.

The page goes on to break down all the companies and such. Vehicle crews are not mentioned, although vehicles are. Here's the total listing:

Chapter Enqerries and Servitors = 900

Chapter Master = 1
Sanguinary Priests = 22
Chaplains = 14
Sanguinary Guards = 30
Techmarines = 36
Predators = 20
Baal Predators = 18
Vindicators = 5
Whirlwinds =7
Land Raiders = 43
Stormravens = 51
Rapid Strike Vessels =16
Thunderhawk Gunships = 36
Thunderhawk Transporters = 3
Epistolaries = 7
Codiciers = 11
Lexiacum = 8
Acolytum = 5
Librarian Dreadnoughts =5
Veterans = 102
Furiouso Dreads =5
Assault Squads = 18
Tactical Squads = 44
Devastator Squads = 18
Dreads = 21
Scout Squads = 10
Unassigned Neophytes = 56

------- Now, there are a few things to assume from this:
I'm not sure what the different ranks of librarians are, e.g. at what point you become a space marine and not an aide. I'll assume Acolytum aren't and Lexiacum aren't full space marines. In addition, I'll exclude the neophytes from all calcuations, and the death company since they are BA specific.

There are two paths to go down, crewed vehicles (and dreads) or not.

Ignoring vehicles and dreads, here' another breakdown of numbers:

Chapter HQ = 91
Veterans and Sang Guard = 132
Assault Marines = 180
Tactical Marines = 440
Devastator Marines = 180
Scouts = 100

Total = 1123 Marines in the BA chapter, exclude DC and vehicles.

-------------------------------------------------

The next route is with vehicle crews and such, I'll have to take some guesses here, the numbers in brackets are my estimated crew and the numbers afterwards are total crew:

Chapter HQ = 91
Veterans and Sang Guard = 132
Assault Marines = 180
Tactical Marines = 440
Devastator Marines = 180
Scouts = 100

Dreads (1) = 31
Predators (3) = 60
Baal Predators (3) = 54
Vindicators (3)= 15
Whirlwinds (3)= 21
Land Raiders (4)= 172
Stormravens (2) = 102
Rapid Strike Vessels (5)=80
Thunderhawk Gunships (5) = 180
Thunderhawk Transporters (5) = 15

Therefore, with Vehicles and their crew (excluding servitors but imagining drivers and such are full battle-brothers):
1853 space marines in the BA chapter.

Make of that what you will

Lunarman

Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

I have a better question. How many guardsmen are there?

I read somewhere there are about 1,000,000 marines. Some chapters have more like BT. GK have more than most chapters but noone knows how many there are exactly. Ill find the source of my number later when I remember where I read it.

There are lots of guardsmen...
Like lots...
They have enough guardsmen to crush every single SM chapter in a tide of bodies and steel.

Let's assume the following:

1 million planets in the IoM.
Average population of 100,000,000 per planet
Military participation rate of 0.5% (similar to modern Europe)
Weight per man including equipment = 100Kg
2,000,000 SMs in the IoM

There are 5x10^11 IG.
That is 250,000 per single SM.

If the lift capacity were available, each SM could be buried under a pile of IG weighing 25,000 metric tons.

First of all the IoM's military participation is much higher than modern Europe. Secondly, what the heck are talking about? That's one crazy tangent you went off on.

But it is a damn good tangent!
However, the percentage militarisation is an estimated average across the whole IOM, considering hives contain billions and agri-worlds don't have a tithe, 0.5% seems reasonable, if slightly low.

Yes they have the power to effect governing, they do have power within the High Lords Of Terra as they have a high lord in the council (but their job is not governing).

However it is the High Lords as a whole that decide if a new founding can happen (as presented in multiple fluff sources). So the Inquisition cannot authorise the founding of new chapters without the support of the High Council (the Exorcists were part of the 13th founding and not a lone founding by the Inquisition). Add to the fact that the tithed geneseed is stored in Mechanicus vaults it would make it very difficult for even a large group of Inquisitors to get access to it for a 'secret' founding.

Inquistion is pretty involved in Governing in that they can remove an Imperial Governor whenever they feel life it.

Not that I don't believe you but what are the multiple sources that say it's the High Lords that make Chapters?

CDA 'Anazail made a strong request of the High Lords of Terra for a Chapter to raised'

Index Astartes vol 1 'New Chapters are only created by an Imperial edict of the High Lords of Terra, and, some whisper, by the sole will of the Emperor of Manind. The task of actually assembling these Chapters always belongs to the Adeptus Mechanicus.'

Sounds good to me. In my mind, because the Inquistion are the guys out in the field and understand the situation "on the ground" so to speak they often request it, High Lords rubber stamp it, Mechanicus makes it happens.

The High lords are made up of people with alot of knowledge of what is going on in IoM through their own departments. The Master of the Administratum, Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard (if part of the council at the time), Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy (if part of the council at the time) would all have a very good idea about were new founding should go.

Kilkrazy wrote:Let's assume the following:

1 million planets in the IoM.
Average population of 100,000,000 per planet
Military participation rate of 0.5% (similar to modern Europe)
Weight per man including equipment = 100Kg
2,000,000 SMs in the IoM

There are 5x10^11 IG.
That is 250,000 per single SM.

If the lift capacity were available, each SM could be buried under a pile of IG weighing 25,000 metric tons.

I thought i was exaggerating but it turns out i'm not... go figure.

Graham McNiell wrote:(Ultramarines, Warriors of Ultramar) at full occupation, the monastry was home to the thousand battle brothers of the chapter and their officers...

Suggests that officers are not counted as part of the 1000 marines in a chapter, so the estimates of 1100-1300 are acceptable depending upon how many officers are needed to manage a chapter of SM.
I presume officers are captains, librarians, chaplains, techmarines, the master of the forge, honour guard and the chapter master

Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Where did we get the idea that vehicle crews and such aren't counted as Space Marines when GW makes their statements about numbers, anyway?

In terms of basic codex fluff, there's 1,000,000 with the (1000 chapters of 1000). Getting more complicated and taking into account larger than average chapters (Black Templars), chapter losses, destroyed chapters, smaller then average chapters, etc. it's probably 600,000-800,000. That number is of course a shot in the dark, beyond the basic 1 million figure there's no reliable number out there.

Seaward wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically there could be 2,000,000 SMs since the officers, librarians and vehicle crews aren't counted as SMs but clearly are, having power armour and so on.

Where did we get the idea that vehicle crews and such aren't counted as Space Marines when GW makes their statements about numbers, anyway?

From Lunarman's post further above in this page. That covers Blood Angels so may not be universally applicable.

I would welcome a definitive fluff source to confirm the point either way. Perhaps there isn't one available.

Codex Space Marines shows a full Ultramarine roster that is above 1000 and they are the most Codex chapter obviously.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

Ask and ye shall receive .

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

No, because the reserves companies crew the vehicles.

That means SM chapters can be any size they like, by increasing the size of their reserve company.

There are four reserve companies, each one having 100 marines.

A-P wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Thank you lunarman, i was building myself up to doing that but now you have saved me the trouble

There is a really good B&C thread about this, but im not a member so i cant use the search function :(

Ask and ye shall receive .

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Thank You A-P!!
This is exactly what i meant!

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes but what does 1,000 strong mean?

I was under the impression that the point of the Codex Guillimanus was to split the SMs down and limit their numbers in order to prevent rebellions.

A chapter of 1,000 infantry plus undetermined numbers of vehicle crews and librarians who can be fielded as infantry is not limited.

A chapter of 1,000 all ranks and capacities is limited.

Well, if you want an exact detailing of every single Marine, I'm afraid that you won't find it as no such thing has ever been published. We can hyptherize, or even theorize (based on peer review, natch), but everything is an approximation modified, highly, by in-fluff casualties and unreported information. A traditional miodern military has about twelve non-combatants per combatant, for example. How many people do the Ultramarines have making drop pods, or mining for metal to be turned into bolter shells? Leaving out the non-combat support staff, here's what we know, based on the Codex.

First, a fully-formed chapter has ten companies... 1st company is veteran, 2-5 are "battle" companies and handle the usual combat load, 6 and 7 are 'tactical' companies for reserves, 8 is the assault company, 9 is the devastator company, and 10 is for scouts/training.

Each company has a captain and his command staff. Each company has a chaplain. Each company has a librarian. Chaplains and librarians used to get a support staff as well, both of command staff marines and younger chaplains and librarians (There are four Librarian ranks... the list above that lead to some confusion was using these official names. Master Librarian is the highest, Epistolary is a level 3 and tops of all but 1st company, lexicanum was 2nd highest, codexi were rookies) ... Apothecaries also had a sub-structure, as did techmarines. Servitors are all over the place, bacing up tech marines. There are also commanders under the captain (not reflected in 4th ed charts, sadly) that each run 20 men. These *also* have a retinue.

In *theory*, attack craft (Bikes, attack bikes, land speeders) are crewed by assault marines while tanks (Predators, land raiders) are crewed by devastators and/or tech marines (Fluff has drifted over the years). These are pulled from the infantry of the company or drawn from the 8th and 9th companies, as needed.

So, what does it all mean?

Well, firstly, ten companies, each with ten squads of ten men = 1000. This is the number that's usually given for a chapter. Command staff is over and beyond this. At the very least, you get a Captain per company, a Chaplain per company, a Techmarine per company, and an Apothecary per company. More realistically, each command staff member has substaff... 4 under a Captain, 2-4 for the rest. The first company's command staff is a level higher (Captain = CHaper Master, Librarian = Chief Librarian, etc) as befits their rank. Dreadnoughts aren't counted towards the overall total, nor are servitors that can be combative (Servitors are often potential Marines who wiped out in training or whose bodies rejected the genetic treatments.) nor dos it count, say, spacecraft crews (Navigators and so on)

So, the *actual* number varies, both with casualties and with command staff.

As such, no true, concrete counting can be made.

You can find a few snapshots ... the codexies will usually include a breakdown of a chapter (most often Ultramarines), detailing the names of some command staff and showing actual numbers of dreads and so forth. Those numbers are pretty much obsolete as soon as they're posted, but hey.

SO, in conclusion, you can say "A thousand chapters of a thousand men", or a million Marines, and you can get a number good enough to work with.

Founding new chapters would take up a new post, but I can cover that if you'd like.

Kilkrazy wrote:

I would welcome a definitive fluff source to confirm the point either way. Perhaps there isn't one available.

Codex space marines, page 88, Antaro chronus.

He's a tank commander and at this "fluff" page described as member of the arsenal. ( second paragraph ).
So tank crews of the arsenal ( predators, vindicators, whirlwinds, Land Raider ) are part of the arsenal, not the companies.
Additionally , he has 50+ marines under his command. ( last paragraph ).



The case of more than 1000 marines is pretty solid as the companys alone provide 1000.

Codex space marines, page 17, UM:

10 companies a 100 marines. + arsenal, apothecarion, etc => 1000 + 97 + MC = ~ 1100 without chaplains, crews, command squads...
Again at 9 companies > adds 54+x > ~ 1150 without the fleet and a unknown number of chaplains.

So I was right after all, there are more than 1.000.000 Space Marines in the galaxy. The final resime of the counting on a line up was: "The final number of Marines in a Chapter is impossible to determine, it is our best guess that the number of Marines in a full strength Codex Chapter is in the region of 1400-1600 warriors, far in excess of the mythical 1000 so often quoted both in the fluff and in the 40K community. Hopefully this article has gone some way to showing a more realistic assessment of the strength of the Astartes."