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Ascalam wrote:I have no issue with someone tailoring their list against a specific opponent, as long as the opponent knows exactly what he'll be facing too.

If one guy ONLY plays eldar, and the other guy plays Eldar, Tau, Nids and Blood Angels for example it puts the mono-army guy at a disadvantage, as the other player can tailor vs him, but he has no idea what he'll be fighting.

Meh, never had to worry about it; my main opponent plays only guard, I play only Chaos, and everyone else jumps between armies that are basically the same (Horde Orks and Nids, or Necrons and Marines)

Good way to play, that.

My local area is pretty much Marines (of any flavour) and Something Hordey, but you never know which it will be when you set up a game with someone.

Lots of daemon players and a fair few Nids. I think i'm the only Ork player though, or one of very few.

I have no problem with unpainted armies. Lists designed to destroy me are okay... it makes for a better challenge. My only complaint is the "Oh, look at that! A tourney next month! I think I'll buy a whole new army, the newest army, glue some of it together, put stuff on bases and pray that my opponents don't ask me to explain my codex. Because I haven't read it yet."

This has happened to me at more than one rogue trader event.

I'm aware the rules state the armies need to be painted and based but, there are so few people who show up to events, they'll take anyone.

How do people feel about tailoring lists?... Is any preparation considered tailoring?

For example I play a BA DoA army at the moment. I usually carry a balance between Meltas and Flamers in my assault squads. If I knew I was going up against Nids then I would probably need a few more Flamers. Against GK I would probably be better off with more Meltas.

Is this considered tailoring? Or is it just making sure you didn't bring a knife to a gun fight.

That's tailoring, because you probably didn't tell the GK guy that you're playing DoA so he could stack up on warp quakes. Keep in mind that some armies can't tailor against everything, because the codex doesn't allow it and some player can't, just because they don't have the models. It's not as easy as "those meltas are flamers" for everyone, so tailoring without agreement is gaining an unfair advantage.

As for painting my army is in four stages: Grey/silver(some), primed black(very few), three colors(some), fully painted(about half).
I don't prime a unit unless I start painting them, because I'd rather have a grey ork with a grey weapon, than a black blob of something the primer makes it. Then I sloppily paint skin, weapons and some kind of squad marking for orks and base color and metal parts for vehicles. After that I usually batch-paint the unit if it numbers 10 or more units, or paint them one at the time for smaller ones, which takes about an entire evening per model. This results in most models looking quite good, some others really crappy(but at least painted) and the rest unpainted. Some day my whole army will be finished, but that takes time. I've even been accused of buying painted model because the standards in my army (unpainted/sloppy three colored/done) differ that much.

Well considering where I am at all I have for opfor is Orks and Nids I am pretty much tailored against hordes, that being said I relish surprise fights against MEQ and Mech lists. As far as painted models go I really don't care, they paid for their expensive plastic crack, they can do whatever they want.

Anymore, I often tell my friends what I'm playing and ask them to "wreck my gak for me." It's the best way to stress test a list. Of course, I'd also argue that the definition of 'tailoring' is actually much broader than it's being used here. If you're not all tailoring, why do you have so many melta guns? Why so many dark lances? It's almost as if you're building a list with the focus of taking down a bunch of vehicles, like you expect a mech army. 'Tailoring' as it's being used in this thread is just a very highly tuned form of playing to the META.

I think there's a big difference between tailoring a list and making an educated guess.

For example, if you brings lot of flamers and pie plate against an Ork Army, you're making a guess... the guy may come at you with only 2 troops of boyz in Trukk, Nobz with Big Mek & KFF in a battlewagon, 9 killa kan and 2 deff dread. Now, what the hell are your flamer going to do here? Not much.

So yeah, big difference between looking over someone's list and building a counter-list and simply trying to make some assumption (i.e. If I play against Orks, I'll bring template) - which ultimately may not even pan out.



Now on to painting...

What annoys me are people who lie to themselves. The infamous 'I don't have time' argument.

I know people who play World of Warcraft, ride motorcycle, train dogs, etc... and also play Warhammer and/or other miniature game. And while they have time for a night long raid, a week long bike ride or to go to a dog show... they don't have time to paint.

Fact is, very very few people do not have the time to paint. Unless you're working 90 hours a week with social obligations on top of it... odds are you have free time. You could use some or all of that free time to paint. You simply choose to do something else instead.

Which you're allowed to do of course! I paint minis... but I also watch TV, go out, watch movies, play videogames, take care of my dogs, and I have a wife which, has anyone who has one know, are quite time consuming. Nobody expect you to put painting in front of anything else - unless you want to.

But the thing that annoys me about the 'I don't have time' argument is that it's something people hide behind and ultimately, while they don't convince anybody else, they end up convincing themselves! It is because they say they don't have time they will never make the time. It's a vicious circle.

Let's face it, if your life schedule was so busy and so heavy with obligations... would you have the time to assemble minis? Read codex? Build Army list? Spend countless hours on this forums (and others)? Waste an entire evening (if not an entire day) playing with plastic soldiers? No, you wouldn't.

It's not like painting is a race... if it take you 5 years to complete 1,500 pts... then it take your 5 years.

Now if the real reason is that you don't like to paint and don't want to do it... why are you using your lack of time has a shield? Do you think it makes you look 'better' in the hobbyists' eyes? People like Pouncey who flat out come out say 'I don't paint because I don't like it' have much merit in that regard imo.

Tarkand wrote:I think there's a big difference between tailoring a list and making an educated guess.
Fact is, very very few people do not have the time to paint. Unless you're working 90 hours a week with social obligations on top of it... odds are you have free time. You could use some or all of that free time to paint. You simply choose to do something else instead.

Which you're allowed to do of course! I paint minis... but I also watch TV, go out, watch movies, play videogames, take care of my dogs, and I have a wife which, has anyone who has one know, are quite time consuming. Nobody expect you to put painting in front of anything else - unless you want to.

I have a family to support, work 40-50 hours a week, and spend about 3 hours everyday commuting. 90% of my weekends are spent at family gatherings/social events, cleaning/repairing my house, shopping for the weekly/monthly household supplies, and being the occasional "Stay At Home Dad" while my wife works her part time job.

.... And I still find time to paint.

Just wanted to echo your great point about how people use the "I'm too busy" defense as an excuse rather an actual legitimate reason not to paint.

I accept the not having time to paint excuse or the i dont' want to paint excuse. I slowly paint mine. less than half my army is painted buti'm coming up on having played for almost 6 months now. but i have painted about 60 ork boyz, 20+ nobz, 2 warbosses, and 6 war buggies at this point but still have alot to go. i just am sometimes in the mood to paint and other times I have things I HAVE to do or things I'd rather do.. eventually they'll be there

I work some gruesome hours, and have two small kids at home, but i still try to paint when i can.

I don't particularly enjoy painting, and i'm not very good at it, but i prefer to take a painted army to the table

My Necrons are about 1/2 painted, with another quarter part painted.


My orks, well...

There is something intimidating about 300+ grey plastic/ silver metal orks staring at you that makes it hard to pick up a paintbrush. I have one full unit of boyz painted decently, with their trukk, and a scattering of other models. but my orks are slow going. It will likely take me 10 years at current rate to finish them all

I agree 100% with the 'new' painting argument. (i.e. i never have time... but really i like raiding, and or other activities instead of painting)
It just has to be a priority for the individual if it is gonna get done. I would have no problem if I played a game or two against a person with a whole grey and silver army if they just said, "hey bud, I hate painting and don't wanna spend 30+ on paints when I need it for gas..."

Ok what about if you ask the individual why his army is not painted and he said, " I would rather buy a new squad, landraider, or truck instead of $30 plus in paints?"

Is that laziness? Because he just can't be bothered to paint them so he buys more guys?





about the tailoring... I started this thread because I hate the guy that watches you play a game, get your feel for tactics, knows your list, and then out of know where says, "hey bud lets play after this or hey wanna game." And already has a list ready or goes and makes one.

If some one know you play orks, but just has to make a educated guess. Thats fine. I mean thats just life on the battlefield. A Marine unit doesn't know if their convoy will get hit by a IED. but Hell they are bringing combat engineers to check the roads, and they are bringing MRAP anti IED vehicles that hold up better. So hell I am fine with a kid bringing flamers against me because like you said I could only have 2 troops choiuces and a lot of killer cans.

Tarkand wrote:I think there's a big difference between tailoring a list and making an educated guess.

For example, if you brings lot of flamers and pie plate against an Ork Army, you're making a guess... the guy may come at you with only 2 troops of boyz in Trukk, Nobz with Big Mek & KFF in a battlewagon, 9 killa kan and 2 deff dread. Now, what the hell are your flamer going to do here? Not much.

So yeah, big difference between looking over someone's list and building a counter-list and simply trying to make some assumption (i.e. If I play against Orks, I'll bring template) - which ultimately may not even pan out.



Now on to painting...

What annoys me are people who lie to themselves. The infamous 'I don't have time' argument.

I know people who play World of Warcraft, ride motorcycle, train dogs, etc... and also play Warhammer and/or other miniature game. And while they have time for a night long raid, a week long bike ride or to go to a dog show... they don't have time to paint.

Fact is, very very few people do not have the time to paint. Unless you're working 90 hours a week with social obligations on top of it... odds are you have free time. You could use some or all of that free time to paint. You simply choose to do something else instead.

Which you're allowed to do of course! I paint minis... but I also watch TV, go out, watch movies, play videogames, take care of my dogs, and I have a wife which, has anyone who has one know, are quite time consuming. Nobody expect you to put painting in front of anything else - unless you want to.

But the thing that annoys me about the 'I don't have time' argument is that it's something people hide behind and ultimately, while they don't convince anybody else, they end up convincing themselves! It is because they say they don't have time they will never make the time. It's a vicious circle.

Let's face it, if your life schedule was so busy and so heavy with obligations... would you have the time to assemble minis? Read codex? Build Army list? Spend countless hours on this forums (and others)? Waste an entire evening (if not an entire day) playing with plastic soldiers? No, you wouldn't.

It's not like painting is a race... if it take you 5 years to complete 1,500 pts... then it take your 5 years.

Now if the real reason is that you don't like to paint and don't want to do it... why are you using your lack of time has a shield? Do you think it makes you look 'better' in the hobbyists' eyes? People like Pouncey who flat out come out say 'I don't paint because I don't like it' have much merit in that regard imo.

Hilariously enough, I DON'T have time to read codices, spend hours on this forum, assemble minis, and build army lists. I hardly PLAY anymore. And BTW when I get home from work in that time before I go to sleep I hang out with friends, read, etc. I really don't want to paint minis as soon as I get home. It's a relaxing activity to be sure, and I really enjoy it, but after a long day at work I'd rather just chill out. When I decided to paint a squad of my terminators it took me about a week, so I can do it, and I know I can, but I also mentioned that I'm not always painting 40K stuff. For example I just finished a succubus for funzies. I burned out on painting my terminators. And no, I don't raid anymore because it takes too long. To clarify I still paint on the weekends :b

I recently went through this with my friends. I was using "I don't have time" as an excuse to not do anything (primarily because I was going through a lot of stuff and just didn't want to do anything). I realized my error and it is much like you said. As someone who has dealt with this, I can say that sometimes it may be an excuse, but not having time and not having inclination are two different beasts. I honestly have no inclination to paint after work. Like I said, weekends or holidays are different, but the majority of the time I would simply rather not.

This probably dissolved into a bunch of rambling, but I feel strongly on this issue because, as I mentioned, I just went through it and know someone who is going through it right now as well. Maybe it would be a good idea to paint more. Maybe I'll give it a try.

I had to come up with a counter to list tailoring. and it made the game much funner feel free to use it monti14 or anybody else for that matter.

first some background. I LOVE making lists. I have hundreds of ork lists on paper around but in general i have fun lists i try every week that are changed up. however i rotate 6 lists as my "general lists" (truthfully it is 6 lists per points scape so 18 total) i have 6 1000 point, 6 1250 and 6 1500 . they are numbered opponent rolls a D6 that's the number list at that points value i use.

I also ocationally rotate one out so its always pretty random you could get ork guline, could be green tide, could be battle wagon bash, could be tons of walkers , perhaps bikers or maybe deep strikeing orks... luck of the dice

Thats awesome. Great idea. I am gonna have to try making a bunch of lists tonight. Thanks a lot. Make the game more fun for me and make me a better player in the process.

At least prime your army and paint when you can. Do nothing seems a bit lazy. We have way to many grey armies at our store.

List tailoring is a foul. Working your list to change things up or to try and improve your game is fine.

My thoughts for what they are worth.

Smacks wrote:How do people feel about tailoring lists?... Is any preparation considered tailoring?

For example I play a BA DoA army at the moment. I usually carry a balance between Meltas and Flamers in my assault squads. If I knew I was going up against Nids then I would probably need a few more Flamers. Against GK I would probably be better off with more Meltas.

Is this considered tailoring? Or is it just making sure you didn't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Tailored lists...

Well, I'm guilty of that, but mainly because I play exclusively at home against my mom, and write both lists. In my most recent lists - I end up writing new ones almost every time because it's something I enjoy doing, and also because I like to fiddle with things - there are neither vehicles nor monstrous creatures on either side, so I didn't include any anti-tank weapons on either side.

That said, I really like the idea of a randomized list rotation with six different lists. I think it would help me in providing a little variety without writing new lists each time. ^^

Metaphorically, I think a better way of making sure that you don't bring a knife to a gun fight and a gun to a knife fight would be to bring both.

But, if both lists are tailored against each other, it's more justifiable since it's an even playing field. One player watching their prospective opponent's list in action, then offering a game before running off to write a list to fight that particular list seems wrong.

One side tailoring against the other is somewhat realistic in campaigns where one side has superb intelligence on their opponent's force composition, but outside of campaigns or scenarios with fluffy reasons to do it, it just... seems so wrong.

Edit: I just realized the above was a reply to your first sentence.

In reply to the rest of your post, it'd make sense assuming that your commander knows what sort of forces he's going up against. It's not quite tailoring, since your list composition remains largely the same. Close, but I don't know if it's close enough to be called a cigar.

CrazyThang wrote:

Tarkand wrote:I think there's a big difference between tailoring a list and making an educated guess.

For example, if you brings lot of flamers and pie plate against an Ork Army, you're making a guess... the guy may come at you with only 2 troops of boyz in Trukk, Nobz with Big Mek & KFF in a battlewagon, 9 killa kan and 2 deff dread. Now, what the hell are your flamer going to do here? Not much.

So yeah, big difference between looking over someone's list and building a counter-list and simply trying to make some assumption (i.e. If I play against Orks, I'll bring template) - which ultimately may not even pan out.



Now on to painting...

What annoys me are people who lie to themselves. The infamous 'I don't have time' argument.

I know people who play World of Warcraft, ride motorcycle, train dogs, etc... and also play Warhammer and/or other miniature game. And while they have time for a night long raid, a week long bike ride or to go to a dog show... they don't have time to paint.

Fact is, very very few people do not have the time to paint. Unless you're working 90 hours a week with social obligations on top of it... odds are you have free time. You could use some or all of that free time to paint. You simply choose to do something else instead.

Which you're allowed to do of course! I paint minis... but I also watch TV, go out, watch movies, play videogames, take care of my dogs, and I have a wife which, has anyone who has one know, are quite time consuming. Nobody expect you to put painting in front of anything else - unless you want to.

But the thing that annoys me about the 'I don't have time' argument is that it's something people hide behind and ultimately, while they don't convince anybody else, they end up convincing themselves! It is because they say they don't have time they will never make the time. It's a vicious circle.

Let's face it, if your life schedule was so busy and so heavy with obligations... would you have the time to assemble minis? Read codex? Build Army list? Spend countless hours on this forums (and others)? Waste an entire evening (if not an entire day) playing with plastic soldiers? No, you wouldn't.

It's not like painting is a race... if it take you 5 years to complete 1,500 pts... then it take your 5 years.

Now if the real reason is that you don't like to paint and don't want to do it... why are you using your lack of time has a shield? Do you think it makes you look 'better' in the hobbyists' eyes? People like Pouncey who flat out come out say 'I don't paint because I don't like it' have much merit in that regard imo.

Hilariously enough, I DON'T have time to read codices, spend hours on this forum, assemble minis, and build army lists. I hardly PLAY anymore. And BTW when I get home from work in that time before I go to sleep I hang out with friends, read, etc. I really don't want to paint minis as soon as I get home. It's a relaxing activity to be sure, and I really enjoy it, but after a long day at work I'd rather just chill out. When I decided to paint a squad of my terminators it took me about a week, so I can do it, and I know I can, but I also mentioned that I'm not always painting 40K stuff. For example I just finished a succubus for funzies. I burned out on painting my terminators. And no, I don't raid anymore because it takes too long. To clarify I still paint on the weekends :b

I recently went through this with my friends. I was using "I don't have time" as an excuse to not do anything (primarily because I was going through a lot of stuff and just didn't want to do anything). I realized my error and it is much like you said. As someone who has dealt with this, I can say that sometimes it may be an excuse, but not having time and not having inclination are two different beasts. I honestly have no inclination to paint after work. Like I said, weekends or holidays are different, but the majority of the time I would simply rather not.

This probably dissolved into a bunch of rambling, but I feel strongly on this issue because, as I mentioned, I just went through it and know someone who is going through it right now as well. Maybe it would be a good idea to paint more. Maybe I'll give it a try.

Both excellent points. I was going to make a snappy comment about mocking unpainted armies and laughing at the little children with their metal men....but I'll save that for a different forum. The reality is if you don't paint your armies, you're not in the hobby and I want nothing to do with you.

But I will gladly help people work on their painting.

A few hours or so a week, some simple washing and dry-brushing (or hell, some wonderwash) and anyone can slowly develop a nice army that looks fine on the tabletop. If you don't have time, then you might want to assess your priorities, or decide if this is the hobby for you.

My favorite is people who say they can't afford elements of the hobby-good gods how are you in GW games if you aren't making a comfortable living?

@Anaxagoras: That's actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately, whether or not to continue in this hobby (I'm actually coming back from a hiatus in which I actually missed the game, go figure :b ) and this thread has given me a lot to think about because you're right, why bother doing it if I'm not going to bother putting even a minimum amount of time into it?

In fact, today I read the entire Dark Eldar codex PROGRESS! (VERY slow work day, wish I could paint here.)

I love painting my army, only problem is I like buying more.

My army was about 75-80% painted as of 1730 last night, but at 1731, it doubled in size by virtue of 2 vendettas, a shadowstorm, 3 chimera, and far too many troops. It was disheartening in some sense, because I take about an hour to paint a single guardsman and now I know that even if I paint for 5 hours a day, I will be painting until August :(

But, every week I have a few more that come into the world of living color, only to be destroyed by what ever list is coming at them.

For tailoring, I don't really like it at all. My army is sufficiently bizarre that it is hard to tailor a counter to it, but it also takes me over 10 minutes to pull out. In the time I get it out, my opponent has had a good long look at my army and can start to assemble a quick 'kill that' counter. It makes me angry but I do have a effective counter to it:

I remove my 10 man ratling squads last, after they have placed their army and are ready to go. Something dangerous about 20 BS4 sniper rifles infiltrating and firing turn 1.

I tell my opponents to pull their own list and not try to counter mine. Most of the crowd at my FLGS agree. The ones who don't have problems finding games.

For the rest of us, the most tailoring that we go to is picking who to fight. The SW guys don't like playing my IG, I dislike playing daemons, and nobody wants to play GK.

-cgmckenzie

I have too much army ADD to have a fully painted army. Quite simply, I can't focus on one army at a time or I would go crazy and quit, flushing all that money and time down the drain. At the moment I am not painting because I would rather work on assembling all the models that I have purchased the last couple of months. I am working on a "No-Buy" month right now. I don't intend to buy anything until I finish assembling everything I have.

With that being said, I don't have time to assemble everything AND get it painted. It takes time, and I have too many armies. I used to think that I needed to get stuff painted before I could play, but I quickly realized that I paint too slowly to ever get any games in if I wait until it's painted. I do try and make progress, but I have also realized that my Skaven army is probably never getting painted; it's at the bottom of my priority list, and theres so many of them I will probably give them away before I ever get around to them.

In regards to painting, I have seen people that will prime them, then spray paint each squad some random color and call them "painted" and thus look down on me. Forget that. The models I do have painted are 1000 times better than that.

I love to paint...I'm just slow at it, and can't focus on painting for long enough to do more than a couple of models in a row. Like was said earlier, if you look down on me because of it, well...I have better things to worry about.

I would like to mention that I feel much much worse about proxying than I do about having unpainted models. I know I wouldn't be able to keep everything straight with your army, so why should I expect you to remember that this flamer is a melta, but this one is a ML? This is part of why I am trying to get everything assembled.

Also, I have a habit of painting the less useful models first (my long fang Lascannons are painted, but not the ML models). Ah well.

List tailoring? Meh...don't do it.

Ascalam wrote:I have no issue with someone tailoring their list against a specific opponent, as long as the opponent knows exactly what he'll be facing too.

If one guy ONLY plays eldar, and the other guy plays Eldar, Tau, Nids and Blood Angels for example it puts the mono-army guy at a disadvantage, as the other player can tailor vs him, but he has no idea what he'll be fighting.

If everyone brings a balanced list, then this isn't an issue. I know a guy that only plays guard and there is slight variations to his list, but most of the time he doesn't bring a list, so those variations are simply to win. However if the eldar player in your example brings a balanced list (something like 2 farseers, banshees, dire avengers, war walkers, fire dragons, ect) he can fight the guy who plays the other 4 armies. That said, this is understood that the player with multiple armies doesn't go herp derp he can't kill the following, so I'll put them in.

If everyone's gonna go on about tailored lists, then think about this: You may know every model your opponent has in a mono army, this gives you a huge advantage if you KNOW your playing him. But you have to know that.