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Hey guys.

The ground on the path was moist. The surface of it was littered with tiny pools of liquid that reflected the night sky and the frontier world's three moons. The jungle on either side was so think the trail looked like a tiny river rather then the life line to the Imperial guard forward operating base Alpha. The only sounds where the light buzzing of insects and the croaks of frogs. The ranger had finished his small container of rations; already feeling his body heat up from the nutrient rich wafers. A week of slow crawling or sniper stalking in the jungle had taken its tole. He grabbed his rifle with his right hand and re-situated his back on the tall willow tree. Once comfortable again the ranger placed his elbow on the soft spot of his right knee and looked into the sight. A grin appeared on his face as he thought of his 'hide sight.' The vines were the perfect cover. A small beep sounded deep in his ear. At a frequency only a trained Eldar sniper could hear. The trip wire had been set off. From around the curving path, 200 meters away from the Eldar, a small group of Jungle guardsmen came into view. The rifle clicked and the ranger adjust the sights. the infamous crossairs rested on the chest of a 'silver' young man who was fumbling with a map. Bang, the rifle kicked back, a young officer dead. Mission accomplished. The sniper packed his gear up and walked away to the sounds of screaming men and the roar if striking scorpion chain blades. His fellow ambushers.

Wait. Huh?

Most of you are probably wondering why I wrote this story or why a the young officer was metallic. Did the ranger finally kill the silver surfer. Hell no. The story is like most of my visits to my game shop. My army vs. an unpainted one. I wanted to get all your opinions on the topic. I love playing 40k. My only objectives for a night of 40k at the store are to catch up with friends, play a fun game (don't care who wins kind), and show off the work i put into my army. I will be the first to tell you my army is not professionally done. But why can't people buy a can of primer, apply some basic colors a wash or two and then bring it in.

And I also hate when I come to the store, set my things down get situated and then some guy asks hey you wanna play a game. yeah thats fine. I'll play you. But then he asks hey man you play dark eldar right. My response 'yes.' Oh man give me like 10 minutes I forgot my list at home. I get a coke. pull my stuff out and then we start deploying and oh wait hes got 25 lascannons. fun... bs. Tailoring just prooves you have no skill, or have (for a lack of a better word) 'want' to get better mentality. You just show up and brag about how many people you beat.

What are your thought on non painted armies and taloring of lists.

monti14 wrote: Tailoring just prooves you have no skill, or have (for a lack of a better word) 'want' to get better mentality. You just show up and brag about how many people you beat.

Cool generalizations, there.

Also, insulting people helps to get your point across.

Great post.

"Begin Comedic Rant"

I completely agree with you and will go one further.

There is NO true customization of your army. 5th Ed is Mechanized heaven as well as 1 trick ponies. There is a certain way to play the standard scenarios in order to win. There are a few combinations in each codex that people play. Once you are aware of these combinations you can counter with your own.

Need an list bad? I'll just zip online and grab the flavor of the day list on my net book and "BAM" you got one at the store. No forethought. No creativity. No Nothing!

But of course everybody and their mother is doing the same, which polarizes the game and in order to win it comes down to who spent the most money so they can get the "special characters" that unlock those "special abilities" so you can try to curb stomp the other guy into oblivion with your army.

But the other guy had done exactly the same thing that you have done now so it comes down too this.

1. Who makes the next to the last mistake to win the game and
2. And who has the best dice rolls.

And THEN we have people that -will- cheat with those dice in order to win. Lord give the strength to go on....

Now back on topic

When kids bring in a unpainted army that is one thing. I'll cut them some slack for several months.

But when neck beards, full grown Adults (physically at least), with all of their Angst and righteousness come in with an unpainted army and YOU know that he has had it for months if not YEARS, then that is just pure deep country fat fried laziness, with a massive slobbering of LoZer over it.

And to those who tailor make armies on the fly because they conveniently forgot your codex/rulebook/dice/army list, etc, I generally send that LoZer to the neck beard guy who has the unpainted army just waiting to show his "manliness" with his "army".

So to end my little rant, if you toss away all of the comedic sarcasm you will find that this is partly an unfortunate aspect of today's gaming due to Games Workshop's business model. It sells product but in my opinion, creativity is no longer the rule. It is an exception.

"End of Comedic Rant"

Well... this will end well...

I disagree. I can customize my army which has a fifth edition list (Imperial Guard) quite damned well and still keep it competitive.

I admit that I have been playing little with list building this year compared to previous years (mostly because I don't care about tabletop that much right now...) but fifth edition has a lot of options and viable builds in all of its books.

YOU..my good sirs are spot on. yes indeed

I like to bring 2 armies with me, one I set out and one I play. It’s almost like a bait and switch if it wasn't for the fact that I only play off of pre-printed army lists (which I keep several of, at different point totals). The Tailorers almost always screw themselves over by not playing an all-comers list.

However, not all pick-up games should be played with all-comers lists. You want to have fun, but so do they. Adjusting your list to play a specific army isn't bad, and can lead to a fight worth remembering.

As to unpainted armies, I personally never field unpainted pieces (even if they are badly painted), and yes, I do look down on people that do with a bit of distain. Yet any comment I could make will never be spoken by me, as it’s their hobby too. We each get out of it what we put into it.

Things are different, though, in a tournament. I've noted players that arrive, look at everyone's armies, and then sit down, work out a specific list, buy any new models they need, assemble the models as fast as possible in time for the tournament to begin (some will even put a few coats of paint on them, if they have time). I've never seen a player like that make it to the top tables, nor receive any mention on sportsmanship or army composition. I guess the issue just works itself out.

SJ

jeffersonian000 Wrote:

Things are different, though, in a tournament. I've noted players that arrive, look at everyone's armies, and then sit down, work out a specific list, buy any new models they need, assemble the models as fast as possible in time for the tournament to begin (some will even put a few coats of paint on them, if they have time). I've never seen a player like that make it to the top tables, nor receive any mention on sportsmanship or army composition. I guess the issue just works itself out.

Agreed with this post and I never fielded an unpainted army as well.

There are certain levels of tournament play that i have seen/played. From the friendly Rouge Trader types to the very hardcore GT circuit, to those that play for money.

I prefer friendly tournaments above all.

sometimes I test out new units, and bring in a squad or two unpainted. Usually my entire army or a very large portion is painted. I also dont taylor lists, I go into the shop with a certain unit or tactic I want to try.

IMO you would LOVE Grand Tournaments or conventions. At a GT or a large tournament everyone has one list , and like 90% of the armies are lookin great. Try to go to some tourneys and you will feel at home with some more serious gamers.

I can understand non-painted armies from time to time. Who knows, maybe the person is picking up the game and seeing if it's worth the effort and interest for them to paint. Its what I did. And hell, now I enjoy the painting nearly as much as the game.

As for tailored lists, it draws nothing but anger. Sure, changing things up from time to time is fun. I like to change my army a little bit each time just to make it interesting. Seriously though, making a list just to beat someone isn't cool. Takes the fun right out.

Yeah maybe I just overreacted. But To come back to the store and see a bunch of kids that kept wanting to tailor their lists and or ask for help on how I felt they should change their list to play a specific dude was disappointing.

One time in particular I was about to play a bud's Space Marine army when a kid came up and asked, "dude I am about to play Tyranids what should I take?" I sorta dodged the question and we went about our game. He had a vehicle heavy and termi heavy space marine list vs. my dark eldar. It was a gruesome game. We shot the gak out of each other. As the game was getting good the kid interrupted me and saw I was losing. He said something close to, " I just kicked that kids ass, ohh man your not doing to well."

Its odd that people think they are really good when they just tailor their armies/ in my opinion cheat.

I am in the military and I don't think my Marines know exactly where the Taliban ambush point is, how many AK-47's, RPG'S AND I.E.D'S are on the battlefield. The skill comes from rolling with the punches.

Personally, most of the armies I field are unpainted or partly painted. I play at home though, for a few reasons I won't go into. Last time I played at a public venue was probably in 2004 or around then.

The reasons my armies are unpainted are simple.

First, I enjoy assembling and gaming far more than I do painting. Assembling is quick for me, as I don't spend an hour finding the right pose for each miniature. As a result, some of my miniatures don't look so good, but I'm willing to live with that. Quickness is good for me, because it provides quicker results and thus gratification for my efforts. That's also the reason I enjoy gaming more than painting.

Second, I haven't felt the urge to paint much in recent years. Every few months I'll do a little or a lot for a few days to a week or two, but then I stop again. This is because I pretty much do what I feel like doing. Most of the time I don't feel like painting. I'd rather chat on the Internet, play video games, or more rarely build some foamcore structures.

Third, often when I do paint, I end up thinking about other things I could be doing at the time. Listening to music doesn't drown out those thoughts, but listening to TV shows does keep my mind occupied and focused sometimes. Those thoughts become urges, and inevitably I stop enjoying the painting.

Fourth, I have about ten different armies, most of which have much more than 1,500 points worth of models. Such a large collection is a daunting task to take on, and even at a modest rate of one model a day, would take me at least a couple of years to get all painted, even without the inevitable new models in the meantime. I can't focus on getting one army fully painted for the same reason I collect so many different factions: My interests vary, sometimes day to day.

Put succinctly, I don't really enjoy painting enough to stand getting all my minis painted.

We just have a few rules

A) Must have printed out army list (if not, make one by start time or paint that evening)
B) roll for opponents after everyone has shown their list
C) roll for tables (typically 5 already set up with various terrain by start time)
D) roll for game type

Nobody knows who they'll be playing, what type of "map" they'll be on or what type of game they'll play.

So far (6 months in with these rules) so good.

Lobukia wrote:We just have a few rules

A) Must have printed out army list (if not, make one by start time or paint that evening)
B) roll for opponents after everyone has shown their list
C) roll for tables (typically 5 already set up with various terrain by start time)
D) roll for game type

Nobody knows who they'll be playing, what type of "map" they'll be on or what type of game they'll play.

So far (6 months in with these rules) so good.

When I first started, we pretty much did exactly this. It worked out really well. Frankly, I think it's a great way to prevent anyone from feeling cheated or "noobstomped" since all the matchups are random.

On the subject of non-painted armies... My enjoyment of the "hobby" aspect and my enjoyment of the "game" aspect of 40k aren't exactly inseparable right now. I adore building and painting models - it brings me a lot of gratification, but I think I've said it a few times on this site that I am just as happy to play games using properly scaled cardboard cut-outs as I am using fully painted armies.

Lobukia wrote:We just have a few rules

A) Must have printed out army list (if not, make one by start time or paint that evening)
B) roll for opponents after everyone has shown their list
C) roll for tables (typically 5 already set up with various terrain by start time)
D) roll for game type

Nobody knows who they'll be playing, what type of "map" they'll be on or what type of game they'll play.

So far (6 months in with these rules) so good.

I really, really like these rules...a lot.
Puts some randomness back into the game ...

Lobukia wrote:
We just have a few rules

A) Must have printed out army list (if not, make one by start time or paint that evening)
B) roll for opponents after everyone has shown their list
C) roll for tables (typically 5 already set up with various terrain by start time)
D) roll for game type

Nobody knows who they'll be playing, what type of "map" they'll be on or what type of game they'll play.

yeah those rules are awesome!!!

Glad I got pulled away from the computer for a minute, I was originally going to write something very condescending. Point being, I love seeing a painted army. I love HAVING a painted army. I don't love how long it takes. Honestly, between college and work I don't have time to paint, and when I do, it's usually personal painting projects as opposed to armies. This is why it makes me so angry to hear some people say "I'll totally look down on this person if they don't have a painted army lolol". Because trust me, school and work are a bit more important to me than what you think of me.

So yes, this thread has been vindicated in the sense of "I love where this is going"

I don't like tailored lists unless you agree to use tailored lists. The problem with playing at a FLGS is that everyone knows what army or armies you play.

To be fair, most people at my FLGS have standard lists that they run without modifications but some people will say, "Oh, OK, let's play, I'll be back in 20 minutes" then run off with their codex to make changes. fething ridiculous if you ask me...

As for painted armies, if it's unpainted I won't put it on the table. But as long as there's progress from week to week I really don't care. If you bring the same unpainted minis week after week with no intention of painting them, meh...

I have instated rules for our FLGS. Premade lists at 1500 points on tuesdays, 750 on fridays. Bring one list, and only one list. Roll for deployment and game type, unless otherwise agreed upon.

Works well, still have players who show, well just one guard player, who makes his list when he gets there.

Considering the fact that I put a TON of time into each & every army that I play, I appreciate seeing a painted army on the table. That being said, I completely understand that life/skills/whatever is not always conducive to everyone having a fully painted army (although I do agree with Nuggz that it is nice to see some kind of effort put into it).

As far as the tailored list goes, I can do that, too, and considering the extent of my collection, I can probably do it better. I've found that showing up with an army taiored to wipe out a specific army & then doing just that, usually has the desired effect on the misguided.

I don't mind list tailoring so long as all players involved in the game are aware of it happening, AND are consensually allowing it. For fluff and practical reasons, list tailoring is a fine to a degree.

I play Ultramarines (2nd Company) and Salamanders, and lots of my friends play Orks and Chaos Space Marines. When we're playing a very fluff-intensive game between my 2nd Company marines and a Ork Waaagh Campaign, we're always bringing what we know best to be effective. Why wouldn't Sicarius bring tons of Flamers and Demolisher Cannons to fight Orks? Why wouldn't a Waaagh Campaign bring Big Meks and Meganobs to fight against Marines? Because they know their opposition and are preparing for a brutal and bloody war.

As for playing against unpainted armies, I myself don't particularly care if a person fields a mostly unpainted army, especially if they're new to the game or the army they're playing. Most of my friends (and even the casual gamers that I meet at my FLGS) all enjoy the modeling and painting aspect of the game as it is. I also know the pains of playing with an unpainted army, because when I started playing, not all of my stuff was painted either. Granted, I rushed my painting as fast as I can so that most, if not all, of my models were painted, but I understand that not everyone is in this game for those particular aspects. Do I think that they're missing out on an important part of the game? Yes, I do. But just as jeffersonian said, it's each person's hobby, and you get out of it what you put into it.

That's my 2 cents. Nice thread!

I try to keep my armies painted, but due to work and other factors I cant seem to finnish them. And as for tailord lists I find that quite dull to play against, my gaming club sadly contains alot of people who tailor their lists. Therefor I make sure to mix up my army betwen each battle.

The only demands I have is that they bring a army list so I can see what im facing, and have something to go back on after the battle is finnished.

monti14 wrote: Hey guys.

The ground on the path was moist. The surface of it was littered with tiny pools of liquid that reflected the night sky and the frontier world's three moons. The jungle on either side was so think the trail looked like a tiny river rather then the life line to the Imperial guard forward operating base Alpha. The only sounds where the light buzzing of insects and the croaks of frogs. The ranger had finished his small container of rations; already feeling his body heat up from the nutrient rich wafers. A week of slow crawling or sniper stalking in the jungle had taken its tole. He grabbed his rifle with his right hand and re-situated his back on the tall willow tree. Once comfortable again the ranger placed his elbow on the soft spot of his right knee and looked into the sight. A grin appeared on his face as he thought of his 'hide sight.' The vines were the perfect cover. A small beep sounded deep in his ear. At a frequency only a trained Eldar sniper could hear. The trip wire had been set off. From around the curving path, 200 meters away from the Eldar, a small group of Jungle guardsmen came into view. The rifle clicked and the ranger adjust the sights. the infamous crossairs rested on the chest of a 'silver' young man who was fumbling with a map. Bang, the rifle kicked back, a young officer dead. Mission accomplished. The sniper packed his gear up and walked away to the sounds of screaming men and the roar if striking scorpion chain blades. His fellow ambushers.

Wait. Huh?

Most of you are probably wondering why I wrote this story or why a the young officer was metallic. Did the ranger finally kill the silver surfer. Hell no. The story is like most of my visits to my game shop. My army vs. an unpainted one. I wanted to get all your opinions on the topic. I love playing 40k. My only objectives for a night of 40k at the store are to catch up with friends, play a fun game (don't care who wins kind), and show off the work i put into my army. I will be the first to tell you my army is not professionally done. But why can't people buy a can of primer, apply some basic colors a wash or two and then bring it in.

And I also hate when I come to the store, set my things down get situated and then some guy asks hey you wanna play a game. yeah thats fine. I'll play you. But then he asks hey man you play dark eldar right. My response 'yes.' Oh man give me like 10 minutes I forgot my list at home. I get a coke. pull my stuff out and then we start deploying and oh wait hes got 25 lascannons. fun... bs. Tailoring just prooves you have no skill, or have (for a lack of a better word) 'want' to get better mentality. You just show up and brag about how many people you beat.

What are your thought on non painted armies and taloring of lists.

How is bringing 25 lascannons tailoring to dark elder? I cant think of a more useless heavy weapon to spam against DE considering DE reliance on paper thin transports and lack of good armor saves mean that a lascannon is really one of the worst choices to bring if he had spammed 25 autocannons then you might consider it tailoring (or considering the amount av 12 in most metas autocannon spam is part of a balanced list)

Perhaps he was confusing lascannons with multilasers and autocannons, both of which are ideal choices for fighting army wide AV10 and T3 FnP?

I was misunderstood. I tried to post this thread in the moment of my mad rage. he he. but he did have many autocannons, speeders, dreds with them a predator. etc. my fault.

In regards to the tailoring for a fun game. Thats fine. Oh It would be great two see two buds fighting an epic battle with Orks and Marines. Yes they would bring the gear that would be best to defeat the 'Vanguard' forces elite marines and big Ork thingies. I love that stuff. Makes the game more like the books.

But I hate when people ask for a game, I agree, and then they peace to go make a list that is just to defeat the opponents army they face, normally chuckling while they scamper away. And then they have the audacity to brag about it after word.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the painting. I totally agree that people have lives. Hell I spent a year at VMI and my army was left alone. I have no problem if a player is new to the game and hasn't got his guys painted yet or is busy with work. But to see some progress would be good as well. Couple models or a squad a week or so. But to see people never touch them with paint is disappointing. Esp when I try to put time into my own. thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VMI= military school

haha

Nothing is wrong with Tailored Lists.










As long as both opponents agree with doing it at the beginning. In my gaming group, tis perfectly acceptable to ask someone what they are playing, and Slap Worthy if you refuse to divulge what your playing after said Asking. I suppose we are terrible players that only like to brag about winning, though.

I have no issue with someone tailoring their list against a specific opponent, as long as the opponent knows exactly what he'll be facing too.

If one guy ONLY plays eldar, and the other guy plays Eldar, Tau, Nids and Blood Angels for example it puts the mono-army guy at a disadvantage, as the other player can tailor vs him, but he has no idea what he'll be fighting.