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Melissia wrote:True, but given that they recruit children, these aren't exactly the most mentally and physically developed people to begin with, so that's hard to judge.

I would imagine education is part of space marine training anyway.

Melissia wrote:True, but given that they recruit children, these aren't exactly the most mentally and physically developed people to begin with, so that's hard to judge.

I think SM chapters go with the whole natural selection thing, if they are good enough to survive up until they get the implants they get the implants, if they can survive being a recruit then they will become a full blown marine, that or they will grow old as a scout

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Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, I view them as what they are. Genetically enhanced, chemically enhanced, hormonally enhanced supersoldiers, with various extra organs implanted in themselves. None of which are stated to increase their intelligence.

Except for their selection process, which would weed out the duller candidates.

Not necessarily. You don't have to be brilliant to be a good soldier. In fact, many smarter people are not physically capable enough to become Marines.

There are plenty of physically capable and intelligent people. The idea that it is either brains or muscles is a stereotype. If you look at your average special forces soldier, you are gonna find some intelligent, physically blessed, and even socially gifted people. Really, for the most part the ones I've met are really the total package as their confidence makes them able to do most anything. There is a reason 9% of the fortune 500 CEO's are former marines.

Now all those chemicals and therapy must do something to the brain, whether it is good or bad is up to you to decide. You also have to consider that they have decades or even centuries more experience than your average human. Believe it or not intelligence can be taught to a point. Think what Einstein could have done with 300 years of having a good brain. Now I'm sure most marines get a relatively rudimentary general education to begin with, with extensive training in battle tactics and such. Any further education would be dependent on the individual and chapter. I'm sure some spend time in higher academic pursuits though.

As for what they wear. I always pictured my Marines wearing high collared long coats, but i imagined that back in the day before marines were so freakish (still T3).

I don't know that they are stronger, powered armor is powered to point to make it noncumbersome, I don't know how much it improves their strength. I think they would still be S4 without it, so it might make them slightly stronger, but not significantly. They will hit harder with it, but that's not a strength issue, that's a mass and material issue (think brass knuckles)

They might be able to sprint faster without it, PA is not meant for pure speed, but they can keep up a jogging pace almost forever in PA.

On the OP's actual question, Marines can definitely remove the armor, as the arming ritual is something that is mentioned in numerous places, including the Index Astartes article which enumerated their implanted organs. They will normally look like a human with an increased musculature and wider bone structure, again, as mentioned in that article. However, they will also have the "Black Carapace" implanted under their skin. This contains (or is grown with) input plugs that allow them to interface with their armor's controls, as well as sensory links that allow them to feel sensations using the armor's own sensory equipment. I don't know that GW has described the Black Carapace in detail, but it presumably would make them look somewhat different than simply a large man with bulky muscles.

The black carapace is also what differentiates the Marine's power armor from the power armor of a SoB. The Sister has armor which is, technologically, probably just as advanced as that of the Astartes (probably not identical, but equally advanced). However, the Sister must train intensely to learn to use her armor to its full capacity. By being able to be linked to their armor, Space Marines probably do not require the same amount of training and practice. This probably also leads (although I've never seen it officially) to Marines 'identifying' much more with their armor (the armor spirit, etc) than Sisters. A Battle Sister doesn't feel what her armor feels, nor does she wear it for the decades or centuries that a Marine might.

As a pedantic note, and to defend the noble Astartes, it is inaccurate to describe the Astartes as 'mutants' (as well as heretical). While the genetic structure of Astartes who recruit from a single world, such as the Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. will certainly differ consistently from a human 'average', the citizens of those worlds are considered to be human. They are not even abhumans, such as Ratlings or Ogryn. To argue that implantation of organs or gene therapy makes one a 'mutant' is to argue that the person who has received a kidney transplant or a rejuvenat treatment has now become a mutant. That's certainly not a good biological definition of a mutant, and, given that rejuvenat treatments are given regularly to important Imperial Cult figures, also not a theologically sound claim. Are you going to call the Inquisitor a mutant?

Finally, I'm going to agree, and then disagree, with Melissa on Marine intelligence. It is true that nothing in the process of becoming a space marine makes one more intelligent. It could be argued that the treatment which gives them photographic memories (if such exists) boosts memory, which is an important part of the nebulous concept called intelligence, I'm not going to make that argument. A child transformed physically into a Space Marine isn't suddenly smarter.

HOWEVER, given the amount of training which is hinted at occurring in Scout training, as well as the hypno-inculcaltion (or whatever they call the "sleep training"), as well as the exceptional demands put upon every single scout, combined with the vastly extended lifespan granted to Space Marines, I think it is safe to say that the average Marine IS smarter than the average person, and even the average Sister. In addition, even considering the martial prowess of a Battle Sister, being a Space Marine certainly selects against being stupid. Mistakes get you killed.

If you are going to exclude their intelligence because it is specialized, you need to exclude Einstein, who also had a relatively specialized area of knowledge. Also, you then need to account for Ultramarines noted for wide ranging interests, Blood Angels with what could only be described as Classical educations, and other Marines, such as the Salamaders, who develop substantial technical knowledge. If you are going to exclude their intelligence because they achieve it over time, you again need to exclude Einstein, who clearly developed his intelligence greatly from his childhood to being an adult. In short, I don't think there's a useful label for intelligence that does't indicate that Marines are more intelligent than most people. They aren't more intelligent because some super space science made them smart. They are more intelligent because they are selected for it, trained for it, and the dumb ones get shot by an Ork early on. A Battle Sister given the same advantages, resources, and pressures, however, would be as smart.

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:True, but given that they recruit children, these aren't exactly the most mentally and physically developed people to begin with, so that's hard to judge.

Which is no different than the Schola Progenium 'recruiting' children of slain Imperial servants.

Everyone, Astartes or not, starts off the same. It's the training and enhancements that alter the Astartes from the rest of humanity.

Indeed, but again, none of their enhancements touch the intelligence, which was the issue raised up.

I never said Marines were unintelligent (not in general, anyway....), only that there was nothing in their biology that granted them superior intelligence.

I may be wrong, but at the end of DoWII: Retrubution Space marine ending:



Reaction time and good memory go hand in hand. A person will remember more if they precieve more, and time seems to move slower. (As a note this is why "time stands still" when you're kissing or intimate with someone because your senses are heightened from increased blood flow/andrenaline. This works in fights too). When you percieve more, and thus remember more, you have "more time" to react. It isn't technically more time, you just feel like it is.

The theory of multiple intelligences is that there is more to a person than their book smarts. The different intelligences are Spatial, Linguistic, Logical-mathematical, Bodily-kinesthetic, Musical, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, Naturalistic. So given these intelligences then a space marine is much smarter than the average person in their own specific way, mostly spatial, bodily-kinesthetic, and probably intrapersonal. I would say that in their training they also recieve high logical-mathematical skills as well.

Given the above example of US Army SF, they must have high spatial (for combat awareness), liguistic (for obvious reasons), logical (for tactical awareness), bodily-kinethetic (obviously), interpersonal (to comunicate with their team, spy, or get in budy budy with the locals), intrapersonal (to understand themselves so that they may overcome hardship), and naturalistic (to successfully train the locals) intelligence in order to succeed in their job. So yes, they really are the best we have to offer.

well actually you said this.

No, they're no more intelligent than any normal human.

I have to think you are wrong here. Maybe it's semantics.

I would think that your average Space Marine would be much more intelligent than your average person. Maybe not because of implants, but Darwin is gonna make the average go way up.

Now maybe what you meant was that your average Marine is not as intelligent as the smartest human. I have no doubt they are not all intellectuals, but by comparison I would have to say they are probably much more intelligent than your average imperial citizen.

Yes, they can.

It makes sense for most SMs to be less intelligent than the averge human. They are trained to excel in warfare and are very intelligent in tactics and weapons but they lack all the other aspects. Since joining the chapter they have had no education aside from battle training. They ended education at a young age and only learn neccessary information. They would be hugely lacking in any intelligence related to day to dy life.

Im 6 books into the HH, they take it off all the time!

Off Topic - While being trained how to use a weapon does not automatically make you smarter but merely more skilled, the training in the art of warfare would make them more intelligent. But not by a great deal compared to a Guardsman, who would possibly have an equal amount of intelligence but in other area's that have no servable place in warfare. Marines are TRAINED to be the best in martial and weapon combat so would not have much intelligent about anything other than combat. Whereas a Guardsman would have life experiences that weren't always related to warfare.

On-Topic - Yes, they can remove their suits, to quote another poster, they are not grafted into their armour they merely wear it. The times that they do remove it isn't greatly described though there are several mentions of it in the various books as other have mentioned. One could assume that all Marines would have a certain amount of downtime where armour would not be worn, and at such time Marines without their armour would be doing what Marines do best, repairing their armour, praying, training and all those other non-relaxing activities that Marines oh so love to do.

Yes SM's can and do take off their armour. Examples:

Salamanders ritual branding - They have to take at least some of their armour off to do so and I'm fairly sure they actually mention the sallies wandering around in "simple, ash black tunics" - Edit: Clarification: By "they actually mention" I mean in the books.

Ultramrines - They regularly take their armour off throughout the books for arming rituals, cleaning, basic repair (Plasteel filler stuff), annointing in the theatre. Ventris's armour is so beaten up after Medrengard that he strips it off and dons the armour of a long dead marine from another chapter while he is waiting to be picked up to return to the temple of correction. It's also mentioned about ultras wandering around in "pale blue tunics"

Gaunts Ghosts books - When gaunt has to stand trial (I forget why) him or Hark are approached during a recess by strange visitors, one of which is a giant with deathly pale skin, red eyes and is wearing IIRC a beige robe made from something like burlap. This guy is later revealed to be a Spacemarine captain IIRC

What effect does it have? - Less protection obviously, they don't benefit from the enhanced awareness the armour gives them and the slightly quicker reaction time the get from the enhanced senses (Auto senses and such), they are slightly less strong and I think it actually means they are less agile in some situations too

Intelligence? - I would imagine that part of the rigors of testing prior to gene implantation would be suitability for the stresses of the psyco-indoctrination they go through to learn what they need to know to maintain their armour, use different weapons, operate basic (to them) machinery and vehicles....

ever read salamander? there is a scene where the main character is in the gym, training and he isn't wearing armour...

sort of off topic but, do space marines take wives or mistresses?, are they able to bear children, and do they?

No.
Unsure but unlikely.
And, no.

Or that might be considered too much of a distraction.

romegamer wrote:sort of off topic but, do space marines take wives or mistresses?, are they able to bear children, and do they?

No. Human emotions are essentially 'bred' out of them.

They are unable to bear children as the chemicals in their systems effectively 'neuter' them.

romegamer wrote:Or that might be considered too much of a distraction.

I wouldn't say it would be a distraction to them. The thing is... aside from the physical problem they have very little in the way of emotions. Not only that but they are very much removed from human society... it's fairly tragic come to think of it...

purplefood wrote:

romegamer wrote:Or that might be considered too much of a distraction.

I wouldn't say it would be a distraction to them. The thing is... aside from the physical problem they have very little in the way of emotions. Not only that but they are very much removed from human society... it's fairly tragic come to think of it...

and I imagine they might frown upon sexuality as a whole. the whole chaos thing and all.

romegamer wrote:

purplefood wrote:

romegamer wrote:Or that might be considered too much of a distraction.

I wouldn't say it would be a distraction to them. The thing is... aside from the physical problem they have very little in the way of emotions. Not only that but they are very much removed from human society... it's fairly tragic come to think of it...

and I imagine they might frown upon sexuality as a whole. the whole chaos thing and all.

Nah Slannesh is the god of Excess, excess of anything... music, food, drugs anything really...
Though they probably do frown on it anyway...

romegamer wrote:

purplefood wrote:

romegamer wrote:Or that might be considered too much of a distraction.

I wouldn't say it would be a distraction to them. The thing is... aside from the physical problem they have very little in the way of emotions. Not only that but they are very much removed from human society... it's fairly tragic come to think of it...

and I imagine they might frown upon sexuality as a whole. the whole chaos thing and all.

As Purple said:

Slaanesh has nothing, at all, to do with sexuality. Slaanesh is about excess and pleasure gained from that.

Slaanesh equating to sexuality is like your parents telling you you'll get hairy palms if you keep pleasuring yourself--it takes a lot for it to actually amount to anything in terms of Slaanesh gaining power.

Space marines do indeed take their armour off as they need to clean, repair and replace it where appropriate. Parts of it they cannot do themselves and require a technoserf/techmarine to help but in general each marine treasures his armour and maintains it himself. The same goes for his bolter, and i am sure dissambling and reassembling the firing mechanisms would be a great deal easier sans armour.

A space marine unarmoured resembles an incredinly muscled man (unsurprisingly) he is especially large in the core, neck, shoulders and thighs with arms and lower legs and chest of not such uber steroidal (though still massive) appearance (Early illustration i cant remember if it is from dark millenium or the first book of the astronomicon). His skin is, in general, pale and covered in thin black, tatoo-like, markings (interface nodes of the black carapace) as well as numerous 'matrix' style sockets. (Codex dark angels, 'the last rites of some dude' illustration).

dosnt slanesh have something to do with temptation? i.e. lust?


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i think its silly to say that a deamonette (however you spell it) has nothing to do with sexuality

romegamer wrote:dosnt slanesh have something to do with temptation? i.e. lust?


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i think its silly to say that a deamonette (however you spell it) has nothing to do with sexuality

It's the excess thing. Sex is probably one of the easier thing to tempt people into the excess of... i'm sure that made sense in my head...

Offtopic...
A daemonette model/illustration is what is seen behind the glamouring.

purplefood wrote:

romegamer wrote:dosnt slanesh have something to do with temptation? i.e. lust?


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i think its silly to say that a deamonette (however you spell it) has nothing to do with sexuality

It's the excess thing. Sex is probably one of the easier thing to tempt people into the excess of... i'm sure that made sense in my head...

agreed

Perkustin wrote:Offtopic...
A daemonette model/illustration is what is seen behind the glamouring.

So what your troops could be seeing is a lot of chicken wings charging them...

lol I would be attacked by KFC mac and cheese, a 30 rack of old mil, and Mariska Hargitay

romegamer wrote:dosnt slanesh have something to do with temptation? i.e. lust?


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i think its silly to say that a deamonette (however you spell it) has nothing to do with sexuality

You find a one-breasted, scorpion-tailed chick with crab-claws for hands sexually attractive?

Man... you should probably see someone about that, though I'm not sure who.

Again, though, Slaanesh is the "Prince of Pleasure", and drives hir followers to commit greater and greater acts of depravity in the name of pleasure. Sex is part of it, sure, but it really only gets to Slaaneshi realm when it's *Really* Weird Sex. Again, 2 guys, 2 girls, 1 cup, a Carnifex, a few Eldar and an isotropic fuel rod are probably involved.

Psienesis wrote:

romegamer wrote:dosnt slanesh have something to do with temptation? i.e. lust?


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i think its silly to say that a deamonette (however you spell it) has nothing to do with sexuality

You find a one-breasted, scorpion-tailed chick with crab-claws for hands sexually attractive?

Man... you should probably see someone about that, though I'm not sure who.

If Frued were alive he would have a field day... then again he would have a field day with everything when you think about it...