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I was quite interested in Inquisitor when it was released and even picked up a few of the 54mm minis for the game.
However in my area at the time no one seemed to show the same interest..
But yes, I personaly love the idea of 54mm skirmish games.

54mm gaming (1/32 scale) has been around for years. Airfix used to make great 1/32 scale figures by the box full, so did companies like MARX.
Cheap too.

I don't see the point of 54mm personally. Painting 54mm is actually a project - painting 54mm v's 28mm is a totally different methodology and skill set. Techniques that work in 28 don't work in 54.

One of the reasons why I believe inquisitor didn't do so well was the choice to do it in any size other than 28mm. Having to have and store multiple sets of terrain is a pain (6mm, 15mm and 28mm) as it is but I am not adding large scale into the mix as well. Maybe a model to paint but other than that I have zero interest in 54mm and I am sure I am not untypical of many people.

I think it sounds interesting. I like urban combat and skirmish size games.

nkelsch wrote:And Space marines totally PWNed face and of course everyone wanted to play as the space marine.

I'd have to say from my experience that the space marine was actually one of the least popular classes to use that in itself is shocking, but then I suppose thats what happens when you don't appeal and market the game to children and people with a similar mental age.

The Punisher figure above is nearer 70mm as is all that range.

I would be willing for sure. In fact, if the prices weren't so high I would love to try smog.

I would play a 54mm game. It would be like playing with GI Joes (80s-90s version).

I was thinking of branching out in 54mm display models once I had finished up all my warhammer stuff - they are large enough that you can go to town with painting, but not too large as to be overwhelming projects.

54mm is a good scale for small scale skirmish games as well, small enough that you can have a large-ish force, or a handful of models.

I've played tons of 54mm games at big conventions like Historicon. Most were Napoleonics, Civil War, or World War II, and due to the size of the event were actually pretty big games. A detailed squad-combat game would be pretty cool in that scale though. I'd also love Battletech with 54mm tall mechs.

The scale is far less important than whether or not the game and the miniatures are good.

Make good quality miniatures and a good quality ruleset, and you're a good way there. Scale is really only an issue on its own if people want to use your miniatures in other games... and if your game is good enough, that shouldn't be a problem.

Balance wrote:54mm is uninteresting to me because you're going to be halving the effective size of the playing field by doing so. For skirmish games this means ranged weapons are either always in-range or there's some funky short ranges even worse than 40k.The solution to infinite range weapons is scenery, which means you need interesting playing areas and such...

Truth there.

However, the "infinite range" weapons system is already in use with MERCS. The idea of a lot of scenery isnt new either, Infinity requires tons of it.

54mm is nice for modelling, but does present one issue...a new scale. Since most gamers have 28mm stuff, scenery in particular, this would mean having to buy a lot of new stuff beyond just the models needed for the game. This makes the game significantly more expensive than it seems at first.

Another thing to note...Inquisitor crashed and burned, very few people played it when it was current, even fewer still do.


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Brother SRM wrote: I'd also love Battletech with 54mm tall mechs.

Essentially using Mechwarrior size mechs to play Battletech. I was going to do that, but the MW mechs were pretty dumb, so I abandoned the idea. That being said, a mech game with mechs that size would be sweet. Aprox 1:200 scale would make the mechs between 2 and 3 inches tall each. I could go for that, big time.

Balance wrote:The solution to infinite range weapons is scenery, ...

That, or just making it harder to hit moving or obscured targets.

Brother SRM wrote: I'd also love Battletech with 54mm tall mechs.

Funny you should mention that. When my club wanted to try Sci-Fi mass battle we decided to go with rebased mechwarrior figures because of the really large range available and the low cost. The mechs are 45-70mm tall and the scale is essentially 10mm or N Scale. Some of us repainted and some of us just stuck to one prepainted faction.

We use them for:

Mech Attack
http://rpgdiehard.blogspot.com/2010/12/rebased-mechwarrior-clix-in-action.html
and
Future War Commander
http://rpgdiehard.blogspot.com/2010/12/future-war-commander-with-rebased.html

10mm isn't a very well supported scale outside of wizkids, but the MW range is really large and the four of us who actually decided to make armies are quite happy with the choice.

insaniak wrote:The scale is far less important than whether or not the game and the miniatures are good.

Make good quality miniatures and a good quality ruleset, and you're a good way there. Scale is really only an issue on its own if people want to use your miniatures in other games... and if your game is good enough, that shouldn't be a problem.

This is the standard, right here.

54mm, 32 mm, 25mm, 15mm.....

The game stands on its own merit, not really on the size of the figures.
In as much as I'd say yeah or nah, I'm more interested in the rules before making a judgment call on scales of figures.


I've seen the Alamo, some WW1 thing, and the street fight with the germans and russians. Was OK, but it takes ALOT of work to get to that level of detail to play a game of that stature. Wouldn't be my first choice, but if it was set up and you were demoing it or something, heck yeah, count me in.... Lets see what you have there.


Let me know more about it.....

Delephont wrote:

JOHIRA wrote: The advantage of being able to realistically depict the pimples on my character's nose don't counterbalance the disadvantages that everyone else has listed here.

However, there are no absolute disadvantages, at least none that I have read so far, just peoples preferences.....theres a big difference. Of course, if you want to flood your battlefield with miniatures than of course, you need to have small minis.....but thats not what the OP is suggesting (I think?). I think it's clear from a practicality point of view, that a 54mm miniatures game would have to be of a small skirmish level.

Right. But what I'm saying is that I can't think of any advantage to a 54mm skirmish game that you couldn't do just as well with a smaller scale game. Unless your 54mm figures are action figures with articulation that you can pose them to kneel or go prone and that kind of game sounds a bit too close to playing with G.I. Joes for my taste.

There are 3 absolute disadvantages to 54mm games- a lack of bits available to make genre scenery or conversions, larger miniatures are most likely going to be more expensive, and larger miniatures are going to take longer to paint well enough to get any benefit out of their increased detail.

That said, 54mm Battletech would be awesome, presuming the 'mechs were 54mm and all other vehicles/infantry bases were in scale with that standard. I could totally go with that.

How did 54mm wargaming come around? I've oogled some Napoleonics, I think, and other figures made for 54mm tabletop games. But never really grasped why that would be a better alternative for tabletop games apart from doing it more like D&D or Heroquest-ish. Mostly because of scale and time investment in scenery and stuff.

What are the pros of using 54mm? What can you do with 54mm that isnt done equal or better in 28/15/6mm?

With current SciFi and Fantasy gamers 54mm appeal seems to be based on extreme detail of really well sculpted figures.

For Historical gamers, 54mm seems to be about nostalgia, history and the spectacle of very large battles.

54 mm wargaming was the "original" scale for wargaming as depicted in the HG wells book "Little Wars" which is one of the first sets of wargaming rules not intended for military use. Most classic toy soldiers like the type used in the book were somewhere around 54mm. I recommend it to any one who is a fan of wargaming.

For those with adequate space, a taste for very very large battles or a particular interest in classic toy soldiers and current versions, 54mm wargming is an appealing scale.

I say it's blasphemy. 35mm I could reluctantly accept, anything over that is plain wrong and probably invented by devil.

25-28mm is our god, thou shalt have no other gods.

Delephont wrote:

JOHIRA wrote: The advantage of being able to realistically depict the pimples on my character's nose don't counterbalance the disadvantages that everyone else has listed here.

However, there are no absolute disadvantages, at least none that I have read so far, just peoples preferences.....theres a big difference. Of course, if you want to flood your battlefield with miniatures than of course, you need to have small minis.....but thats not what the OP is suggesting (I think?). I think it's clear from a practicality point of view, that a 54mm miniatures game would have to be of a small skirmish level.

Being in a scale that is not main stream is a HUGE disadvantage because it limits the number of people who are willing to buy what you are selling. If you make the miniatures in 28mm or even 15mm you increase the your sales. It is not an arguable point. Doing this increases the likelihood that the OP will have a successful business.


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Delephont wrote:Imagine using guys like this, painted to this level in your war games

]

Yes that would be awesome but 99.9% of wargamers can not paint anywhere close to that well......would be cool though.

Yes, Have done so in the past, and will do so again someday.

Played napoleonics in 54mm on 8x6 tables (ranks and all).

Played Inquisitor skirmish level.

Played 1/35 scale (close enough) platoon level WW2.

Jani wrote:25-28mm is our god, thou shalt have no other gods.

You're a Finn, so I'll cut you some slack.

I HAVE no gods (wargaming or otherwise).

28mm is the "new kid" on the block and should pay some respect to the older generations.


The only 'sin' I see in gaming is in ccg. This, this is the abomination unto gaming and an unnatural act.

JOHIRA wrote:

There are 3 absolute disadvantages to 54mm games- a lack of bits available to make genre scenery or conversions, larger miniatures are most likely going to be more expensive, and larger miniatures are going to take longer to paint well enough to get any benefit out of their increased detail.

The cost of the miniatures is going to be a huge disadvantage. Everyone here is saying how much they want to buy at this scale but if you have a 54mm miniature with say an extra head and an arm set you are looking at around $10 to $15 dollars to just produce the miniature (based on the amount of extra stuff on it) and the retail prices of that would be around $50 to $75 per figure. So if your game needs ten of them to make a squad you are going to have to drop around $500 on them.

Now I understand you can find cheaper guys but that will usually be from companies which have their own production capabilities. Those numbers above can be tweaked depending on a variety of issues like the bulk of the miniature but that is about what it costs me to get large multi-piece models produced in metal.

Jani wrote:I say it's blasphemy. 35mm I could reluctantly accept, anything over that is plain wrong and probably invented by devil.

25-28mm is our god, thou shalt have no other gods.

You grew up playing with Army Men, right? 54mm right there, baby.

Brother SRM wrote:You grew up playing with Army Men, right? 54mm right there, baby.

Please don't judge me for my childhood sins.

snurl wrote:54mm gaming (1/32 scale) has been around for years. Airfix used to make great 1/32 scale figures by the box full, so did companies like MARX.
Cheap too.

I've got buckets of them. They are great. Really cheap, detailed, no assembly required and fab for playing toy soldier games outdoors, at the beach and so on.

http://www.airfix.com/airfix-products/dioramas-and-figures/figures/132-scale-figures/a02703-us-infantry-132-a02703/

Combat Storm is an American set of rules for playing with this kind of Army Man model.

There are more historical ranges in 54mm than people realise. It has been around a long time. "Little Wars" was played with 54mm Britains' figures.

Yes. When metal D&D figures first appeared I remember thinking how cool it would be if they had gone with 1/32 scale like everything else.
Times sure change.
I still see 54mm games at Historicon every year. These are played with those same soft plastic figures I mentioned before.

brettz123 wrote:Being in a scale that is not main stream is a HUGE disadvantage because it limits the number of people who are willing to buy what you are selling. If you make the miniatures in 28mm or even 15mm you increase the your sales. It is not an arguable point. Doing this increases the likelihood that the OP will have a successful business.

No, it's most certainly an 'arguable point'...

Yes, making your miniatures in the same scale as other mainstream games may result in extra sales, as people buy your miniatures for those other games. The number of people who actually do this, though? Obviously there's very little market research available on the subject, but I would very strongly suspect that they would be in the minority for anything other than generic fantasy. For scifi games in particular, because games tend to have their own distinct look, most players (at least from my experience) are reluctant to buy outside the game's own range, as it winds up not looking right.

So yes, you might wind up with a few people buying your miniatures to use in other games... which, if you are trying to sell your own game, is exactly what you don't want them to do.

On the other hand, producing the game in a less common scale could make it more likely that if people like the miniatures they'll buy them to actually use in your game, since that's what they're for and there aren't a lot of other options. They key is simply having miniatures and rules that are good enough for people to want to try the game.

My turn.

First off, let's talk INQ.

The game is still very much alive with a very active community forum at http://the-conclave.co.uk, and events and tournaments run several times a year at Warhammer World. Until recently, the INQ 54mm range was the highest-grossing in terms of sales of all the Specialist Games range (yes, including Bloodbowl). GW doesn't support INQ, not because it didn't get the players, but because they don't support any of the Specialist Games.

Moreover, INQ is not alone. Check out Smog 1888 (which is 1/35, so technically 50mm).

Now to talk 54mm gaming.

Miniatures: there is an enormous breadth of options for miniatures for the 54mm gamer. Go to http://historexagents.com and do a search for "54mm"and you'll see what I mean. A well-painted 54mm model knocks the socks off a similarly-painted model at 28mm. However, it is also true that a poorly-painted mini is hard to hide, not only because of the size but also because of the lower number of minis on the table.

Terrain: a tree is a tree; a hill is a hill; an ancient monument is an ancient monument; a ruin is a ruin; a river is a river. Yes, something like a Warhammer Manor House may not work in 54mm, but at least 50% of the terrain you already own will.

Ranges: infinite ranges aren't a problem in 54mm any more than they are in 28mm games that include them (given that real life sniper rifles can have a range of a mile or more, does no one else think it odd that in 40k they can only reach out to 48"?). INQ uses a system of range modifiers such that all weapons have infinite range. It's just very, very hard to hit targets as they get further away... Just like real life!

The main advantage of 54mm wargaming at a skirmish level is that it enhances the player's experience. The larger miniatures provide a more exciting engagement with the action and create a greater intimacy between player and character.

Cost should not be considered an issue if the result is beautiful minis in an elegant, well-presented game system.

R.

Not interested in the slightest, unless it's a board game or something I don't need terrain for (see SMOG or certain spaceship games). The inquisitor thing of only 2-3 models on the board disinterests me too, I prefer at least 10 in my skirmish games.

I would be much more interested in a smaller scale.. a lot of 28mm terrain can still be used at 6-15mm and can even look better at that scale since your small hillock is now a properly massive hill with steep cliffs... that set of trees is now a colossal grove of redwoods.. that little stream of a river is now a properly sized river and so on.

I palyed Inquisitor a good bit and found the most irritating thing was how luck based it was.....The 4+ to actually do anything meant that whenever you tried multiple actions they always topped at the most awkward point. Equally that made a great narrative I rather enjoyed. For writing a rule set why specify the scale? In fact a "if using 28mm miniatures use Metric, if using 54mm use Imperial" system might work well. While 28mm is more compatible with other systems this'll probably mean you have more competition. Either way it's the quality rather than scale of figures which would matter.