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Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

+1

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Of course it is. That tactical decision is The Pinning Test!

Note: Units with Rage! are immune to Pinning.

Actually you are mistaken, pinning is a reaction to being scared of being shot in the head. tactical decisions are what you make with your troops, if the tactical decisions were made by dice we wouldn't need players at all.

Leadership Tests can represent all sorts of things, including Sarge convincing the squad to get up and run or he'll come over there and throw them.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Of course it is. That tactical decision is The Pinning Test!

Note: Units with Rage! are immune to Pinning.

Actually you are mistaken, pinning is a reaction to being scared of being shot in the head. tactical decisions are what you make with your troops, if the tactical decisions were made by dice we wouldn't need players at all.

Leadership Tests can represent all sorts of things, including Sarge convincing the squad to get up and run or he'll come over there and throw them.

Once again, you are not demonstrating tactical decisions but uncontrolled reactions, the tactical decision was that the troops have to get up and run. The role has nothing to do with tactics, it is merely the chance to convince the troops to not go with their reaction (usually one of fear). Leadership tests might represent many things, but all of those things are factors not entirely within your control. Tactics are entirely within your control, whether or not your troops follow them is not, hence leadership (and rules like rage).

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Of course it is. That tactical decision is The Pinning Test!

Note: Units with Rage! are immune to Pinning.

Actually you are mistaken, pinning is a reaction to being scared of being shot in the head. tactical decisions are what you make with your troops, if the tactical decisions were made by dice we wouldn't need players at all.

Leadership Tests can represent all sorts of things, including Sarge convincing the squad to get up and run or he'll come over there and throw them.

Once again, you are not demonstrating tactical decisions but uncontrolled reactions, the tactical decision was that the troops have to get up and run. The role has nothing to do with tactics, it is merely the chance to convince the troops to not go with their reaction (usually one of fear). Leadership tests might represent many things, but all of those things are factors not entirely within your control. Tactics are entirely within your control, whether or not your troops follow them is not, hence leadership (and rules like rage).

Look, if you want to throw dice and move little painted men straight into your enemies guns and bayonets and what have you, you're in the right place.

If you want soldiers with a sense of self-preservation (beyond what little most armies in this game do have), go play Company of Heroes.

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

Except that currently Orks have better ranged weapons than the imperial guard.

Oh no, he's firing 40 Str3 shots! Half of which won't even hit, and then another 2/3 that won't even wound against Orks and Space Marines.

Of course, it's totally fair to have 30 Orks (with a hidden Powerfist and Fearless of course, and they're dirt cheap and only worth 1 KP) with a 24" range firing 60 Str4 shots.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

Except that currently Orks have better ranged weapons than the imperial guard.

Oh no, he's firing 40 Str3 shots! Half of which won't even hit, and then another 2/3 that won't even wound against Orks and Space Marines.

Of course, it's totally fair to have 30 Orks (with a hidden Powerfist and Fearless of course, and they're dirt cheap and only worth 1 KP) with a 18" range firing 60 Str4 bs2 shots.

Fixed that for you. 20 hits, 13 wounds, of which i'd say 8/9 go unsaved against regular guard. It also lowers their attacks to 1 apeice, making them a little more vulnerable in Close combat, where for the same price, my 30 man blob squad of Imperial Guard (with hidden power swords, and stubborn ld 9) does 54 24" Str3 shots, or if they're in 12", 81 such shots. At 24", 27 hit, 9 wound, 7 or 8 go unsaved.

So the result is a little worse, but i'd say when the dice get rolling margin of error will nullify that pretty quickly, and we do that from a whole six inches farther away. As an Imperial Guard player, i have to say- We do NOT need more dakka. It's fair enough as it is.

Also, for the record: Anyone using power blobs in a shooty manner without putting FRFSRF on them is doing it wrong.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

Except that currently Orks have better ranged weapons than the imperial guard.

Oh no, he's firing 40 Str3 shots! Half of which won't even hit, and then another 2/3 that won't even wound against Orks and Space Marines.

Of course, it's totally fair to have 30 Orks (with a hidden Powerfist and Fearless of course, and they're dirt cheap and only worth 1 KP) with a 24" range firing 60 Str4 shots.

I'm sorry, was that an attempt to justify giving assault 1 18" lasguns to guardsmen?

Oh no! I has 1 powerfist derp du derp.

Also, did you just imply that fearless is GOOD compared to stubborn? Seriously, did you just say that

Ld9 Stubborn > Fearless?

1 powerfist, furious charge, toughness 4, 2 attacks base. You might just be oversimlpifying there.

htj wrote:1 powerfist, furious charge, toughness 4, 2 attacks base. You might just be oversimlpifying there.

But in order for them to have all that shooty goodness, they forfeit an attack. Making their charge about as bad as, say, a power blob that just received creed's charge order.

Brick wrote:

htj wrote:1 powerfist, furious charge, toughness 4, 2 attacks base. You might just be oversimlpifying there.

But in order for them to have all that shooty goodness, they forfeit an attack. Making their charge about as bad as, say, a power blob that just received creed's charge order.

But still a lot cheaper than the powerblob and Creed combined, and unlike the blob, able to hit the recipients with that shooty goodness as they come in.

htj wrote:

Brick wrote:

htj wrote:1 powerfist, furious charge, toughness 4, 2 attacks base. You might just be oversimlpifying there.

But in order for them to have all that shooty goodness, they forfeit an attack. Making their charge about as bad as, say, a power blob that just received creed's charge order.

But still a lot cheaper than the powerblob and Creed combined, and unlike the blob, able to hit the recipients with that shooty goodness as they come in.

Remember, BS2. But while i pointed out, Str 4 nullifies that- they can shoot just as good as guard, if not as far.

The difference being any ork unit that tries to shoot me and then come play swordfight has to get within 12" of me, which means anything left to charge with won't hurt so much.

Besides, say i don't have creed. For the same price as that ork unit, i'll still be swinging 12 power sword attacks in combat, at the same time as their first round, before them every other. So while that furious charge may hurt a bit, I'll wont be too bad off and they certainly wont break. I've never had a power blob run away unless the commissar somehow died.

What about the Waagh? Gives them the ability to assault a minimum of 13".

Fine. Give me a moment, i need to do some Mathhammer 40k.

If they Waagh, I will assume that gives the guard unit a free shooting phase, because they have to run to take advantage of the Waagh, and in order to charge me they must start their turn within atleast 18" of me, so i'll get to shoot them. Assuming the worst, all things said and done, they take 7 unsaved wounds. So 30 orks is already down to 23.

Orks charge into combat wielding shootas, and their nobs has a power klaw. 46 Attacks. Approx 23 hit. Of that, 15/16 will wound. Of that, 10/11 will go unsaved. Nob (I believe) Makes four attacks, 2 hit, 1/2 wound, so on average i'd say he'd add another two wounds which you couldn't make a save against. 12 wounds overall.

At the same time, 27 guardsmen swing 27 attacks. 13/14 hit. 4/5 wound. Odds are no saves are made, but for argument's sake we'll say 4 wounds.

3 sergeants and a commissar swing 8 attacks. 4 hit. 1 or 2 wound. No saves. So Imperial guard lose Handily, 12-6. But due to stubborn and ld 9, It doesn't make too much of a difference.

17 orks left, 19 of the guard blob.

Round 2, Guard goes first. Furious Charge wears off.

17 guard swing, 8/9 hit. Of that, 2/3 wound. 2/3 unsaved wounds.

3 Sergeants and the commissar swing again, and inflict 1/2 wounds.

14 orks (minimum) swing, 7 hit. 3/4 wound. 2/3 unsaved wounds.

Nob swings, 1/2 hits, 1/2 wounds.

From there on out, guard wins due to attrition.This is fairly lazy, but elaborating with decimals is likely to just prove my point further.

It proves that a large powerblob is a match for an Ork mob, but it doesn't back up the assertion that an 18" Assault 1 lasgun would swing the odds further in the Guards favour. It would drop 6" from their stationary range and remove the possibility of rapid firing at short range. I don't see that it would offer any real benefit, as it's increased mobility is outweighed by its inferior firepower.

You made a rather large mistake there, 23 Orks charging into combat wouldn't be 46 attacks, it would be 69. They have two attacks base on their profile, plus one for charging. Also, aren't Guardsmen WS 3? So more than half would hit, in your case about 30, with the attacks you forgot about, 46 hit. I don't really feel like doing the rest of the math on the combat, but there you go.

A 30 man power blob squad with a commissar attached and some of these carbines could be 24 inches away from a unit at the start of it's turn, and over the course of the three turns get 81 shots off (equivalent of 12 or 13 casualties) before charging that third turn.

The same unit the same distance away with lasguns would spend its first turn advancing, not be able to fire, spend its second turn advancing, then using FRFSRF be able to apply 54 hits, and then on it's third turn, it would either have to assault or shoot. Couldn't do both.

Overall maximizes firepower and gives guardsmen a lot more tactical flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MandalorynOranj wrote:You made a rather large mistake there, 23 Orks charging into combat wouldn't be 46 attacks, it would be 69. They have two attacks base on their profile, plus one for charging. Also, aren't Guardsmen WS 3? So more than half would hit, in your case about 30, with the attacks you forgot about, 46 hit. I don't really feel like doing the rest of the math on the combat, but there you go.

They have shootas. That equals 1 attack, plus the bonus for charging, so 2 each. Also, i thought so too, but i checked the rulebook because something was wierd with the numbers, and the to hit table for hand to hand says 4 WS vs 3 WS still requires a 4+ roll to hit, and vice versa.

The lasgun squad wouldn't have to advance the second turn, as they would be in range with their lasguns, adding another round of shooting with FRFSRF

Orks have 2 attacks base, not 1.

This is assuming for some reason or another i have to get in melee range with the Orks. In a straight up shooting match the lasgun is better in almost every way thanks to FRFSRF.


Also they have 2 base attacks because they have a slugga and a choppa (pistol and CCW). Taking a Shoota forfeits both of these and thus the extra attack is negated, as far as im aware.

No, Slugga boys have three attacks as a result of the S&C, giving them four on the charge. 2 is their baseline.

Huh. Well, i guess that power blob would have been shredded.

Brick wrote:Huh. Well, i guess a that power blob would have been shredded.

Mine generally are. Assuming of course, that I haven't blasted them to tiny Ork bits by that point. A pretty big assumption.

Base understandings of how the game works aside If i want assault anything lasguns, that's what penal legion is for!

Brick wrote:Base understandings of how the game works aside If i want assault anything lasguns, that's what penal legion is for!

Hah, that's a good point! Only problem there is the having to roll for what they do. Personally, I agree with what Melissia said waaaay back at the beginning. The best representation for a lascarbine is a shotgun. I would have no problem allowing my opponent to have all of his lasguns replaced with shotguns, but failing that, there're always vets.

Honestly, I'd say that the Shotgun already does everything that a Lascarbine should do (which I know has been said before in this thread).

terranarc wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

Except that currently Orks have better ranged weapons than the imperial guard.

Oh no, he's firing 40 Str3 shots! Half of which won't even hit, and then another 2/3 that won't even wound against Orks and Space Marines.

Of course, it's totally fair to have 30 Orks (with a hidden Powerfist and Fearless of course, and they're dirt cheap and only worth 1 KP) with a 24" range firing 60 Str4 shots.

I'm sorry, was that an attempt to justify giving assault 1 18" lasguns to guardsmen?

Oh no! I has 1 powerfist derp du derp.

Also, did you just imply that fearless is GOOD compared to stubborn? Seriously, did you just say that

Ld9 Stubborn > Fearless?

First of all, you're totally ignoring the fact that the Lascarbines won't benefit from stuff like FRFSRF.

Yeah, you have 1 Powerfist, which will smash through most vehicles and most troops.

Also, let's keep in mind that the Power Blob costs waaay more points than your Ork mob+Nob with Powerfist.

Sure, 40 guys is 200 points, but then you have to purchase a Commissar, Power Weapons. Plus let's not forget that you're T4.

Is Fearless better than Leadership 9? Learn to read cuzz, I never said that. I did note that they were comparable. In close combat it's worse, but otherwise it's better 'cause you never have to worry about failing, just about getting below. Whereas with Stubborn, you still have to worry about failing.

Anyway, I don't want this to be a debate over Fearless vs. Stubborn because that's not the point.

Lascarbines are certainly good (I'd probably use them over Lasguns, even if they wouldn't benefit from FRFSRF) but that's because I'm a more aggressive player. Some people might prefer to not do that.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
First of all, you're totally ignoring the fact that the Lascarbines won't benefit from stuff like FRFSRF.

Yeah, you have 1 Powerfist, which will smash through most vehicles and most troops.

Also, let's keep in mind that the Power Blob costs waaay more points than your Ork mob+Nob with Powerfist.

Sure, 40 guys is 200 points, but then you have to purchase a Commissar, Power Weapons. Plus let's not forget that you're T4.

Is Fearless better than Leadership 9? Learn to read cuzz, I never said that. I did note that they were comparable. In close combat it's worse, but otherwise it's better 'cause you never have to worry about failing, just about getting below. Whereas with Stubborn, you still have to worry about failing.

Anyway, I don't want this to be a debate over Fearless vs. Stubborn because that's not the point.

Lascarbines are certainly good (I'd probably use them over Lasguns, even if they wouldn't benefit from FRFSRF) but that's because I'm a more aggressive player. Some people might prefer to not do that.

No one takes 40 man blob squads, Anything above 30 is too unwieldy. And a 30 man blob with 12 PW swings is the same price as an ork mob+Nob with Powerfist. The Ork mob, if it gets the charge, will fething shred the Imperial Guard (as it should) But Imperial Guard have the range advantage and FRFSRF so they can out shoot bs 2 orks any day.

Anyways, if you want to play an aggressive list, you should either be using penal legion or mech vets, because Imperial Guard power blobs simply cannot do the job of a mob (get a lot of cheap shots off and then charge) as well as orks, unless supported by certain special units. They require some special rules to be a feasible choice for guard.

Penal Legion can do what you want, do it well, and as long as you have an officer within commanding range, wont be going anywhere (without the officer stubborn still lets them stay reliable in CC).

Riddick40k wrote:

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

+1

I intended the lascarbines for Drop Troops/Air Cavalry who will be in an enemies face from the get go. Vets have shotguns, but regular infantry squads only have lasguns. I wanted my guardsmen the ability to assault after shooting to deny the enemy the assault. When you have guardsmen that close to begin with, it's better to assault first and take the casualties then to waste the assault phase standing there.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

terranarc wrote:Hmmm giving dirt cheap combined squad the option to become orks. Pretty imbalanced I'd say.

Lets assume it was 18" assault 1 lasgun. You basically get 24" range with movement except you're closing in on your target and when it comes time to charge, you can unload another 20-50 lasgun shots.

Also, not sure if its fluffy to give entire platoons, las carbines.

I feel like you're (OP) just frustrated by the fact that you're not allowed to shoot with your 40 man, 1 killpoint worth, dirt cheap, hidden powerswords everywhere, stubborn squad before assaulting.

+1

I intended the lascarbines for Drop Troops/Air Cavalry who will be in an enemies face from the get go. Vets have shotguns, but regular infantry squads only have lasguns. I wanted my guardsmen the ability to assault after shooting to deny the enemy the assault. When you have
guardsmen that close to begin with, it's better to assault first and take the casualties then to waste the assault phase standing there.

Then they should have gave guardsmen las pistols instead of useless combat weapons

Brick wrote:
No one takes 40 man blob squads, Anything above 30 is too unwieldy. And a 30 man blob with 12 PW swings is the same price as an ork mob+Nob with Powerfist. The Ork mob, if it gets the charge, will fething shred the Imperial Guard (as it should) But Imperial Guard have the range advantage and FRFSRF so they can out shoot bs 2 orks any day.

Anyways, if you want to play an aggressive list, you should either be using penal legion or mech vets, because Imperial Guard power blobs simply cannot do the job of a mob (get a lot of cheap shots off and then charge) as well as orks, unless supported by certain special units. They require some special rules to be a feasible choice for guard.

Penal Legion can do what you want, do it well, and as long as you have an officer within commanding range, wont be going anywhere (without the officer stubborn still lets them stay reliable in CC).

If we're talking Lascarbines, then the range is the exact same. In addition, since Lascarbines aren't lasguns they will not benefit from FRFSRF.

Never used Penal Legion when I played IG, I always saw them as a bit overpriced for what they could do. Maybe if I ever start them up again.