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You hear these mentioned in the fluff every once in a while. I know it would be much easier to use the stock lasgun rules, but I wanted to try something new.

Since a carbine is supposed be used between a smg and an assault rifle, I came up with a few possibilies:

R18" S3 AP- Assault 1/Rapid Fire

R18" S3 AP- Assault 2

On a slightly different topic, would it be overpowered if in the next Tau Codex the Pulse Carbine became, R18" S5 AP5 Assault 2, Pinning

Use shoguns.

Melissia wrote:Use shoguns.

I'm assuming you meant shotguns, but I got a laugh at the image of a bunch of Samurai interspersed in a Guard regiment.

I think the Range 18" S3 AP- Assault 2 would make shotguns pointless.

Oh and isn't the hot-shot lasgun pretty much a carbine?

In Dark Heresy, the Las Carbine is lighter, more compact, can be used one handed with less penalty, and has a slower rate of fire and less damage and range.

S: 3 AP: - Assault 1, 18' Range

That's pretty much it. I get the impression that the Las Carbine isn't really used in Guard Regiments very often, since there don't seem to be models for it.

Mandaloryn: I thought there was an Imperial Japan themed regiment, isn't there?

I didn't want to use shotguns because this was supposed to be for the standard Infantry Platoon et al. to give them a little more range on the move.

I think what Melissia was getting at was using them as a counts as.

Indeed, in gaming terms the hellguns serve the role of such a carbine, if not a bit more powerfull than they should be

@Doctor Robert: Not that I know of.

Hellguns - S3 Sp5 - are pretty powerful for carbines, especially since they have range 20 (I think)

Sieggfried wrote:Indeed, in gaming terms the hellguns serve the role of such a carbine, if not a bit more powerfull than they should be

No, they don't.

Hellguns are heavier, more rapid fire, harder hitting variants of lasguns which require a backpack power pack to use for extended engagements because they use their power cells up faster than lasguns do.

Warmastersolon wrote:Hellguns - S3 Sp5 - are pretty powerful for carbines, especially since they have range 20 (I think)

correct except the range, hellguns are range 24" while the new hotshot lasguns are range 18" and AP3

I think the answer lies somewhere between Helguns and Hot-shot lasguns.

Use them as shot gun count as like Melissia suggested.

For an off topic, I think all rapid fire weapons should have pinning if you haven't moved that turn .... debate!

Guaiwu wrote:Use them as shot gun count as like Melissia suggested.

For an off topic, I think all rapid fire weapons should have pinning if you haven't moved that turn .... debate!

Based on what? Volume of fire? Not disagreeing, just want to hear you rationel.

Cortez667 wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:Use them as shot gun count as like Melissia suggested.

For an off topic, I think all rapid fire weapons should have pinning if you haven't moved that turn .... debate!

Based on what? Volume of fire? Not disagreeing, just want to hear you rationel.

Actually the reasoning runs on both the realism and game mechanics fronts. Realisticly (I know, in a game about spacemen realism doesn't mean much), these type of weapons are often used for suppression fire, forcing enemies to keep their heads down while you bring up the big guns to take them out. So yes, it is a volume of fire thing, and no I gon't think assault cannons and heavy bolters should have pinning (well maybe HB) since there is usually only single weapons from a single front, whereas rapid fire weapons usually spread over multiple troops and angles. Perhaps they also need the clause of outnumbering the enemy.

From a game mechanics point of view it would give you more options and a different playing style. Rather than trying to fit as many special and heavy weapons as you can, your troops suppress the enemy while the special weapons come upo to finish off the job. Would add a new dynamic and make all weapons more equally useful instead of just the normal weapon guys just being there for bodies.

Except that pinning is so horribly unreliable given how high most units leadership is, the prevalence of fearless, all the ways out there to reroll failed leadership tests, I think something needs to be done about that first.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Except that pinning is so horribly unreliable given how high most units leadership is, the prevalence of fearless, all the ways out there to reroll failed leadership tests, I think something needs to be done about that first.

I would agree with this too. Maybe modify how pinning tests are taken?

That's because most armies are Marine armies, and we can't very well have Marines fail too many pinning tests can we. [/yawn] Just gonna have to deal with the crappy MEQ-based meta.

Possibly make pinning similar to tests in combat where leadership modifiers are applied for casualties. Also fearless troops could take a number of hits equivalent to the casualties they suffered (if you're stupid enough to stand out in the open you're going to get shot in the face!). Thereby making pinning more useful.

IE punishing everyone that's not MEQ.

As if MEQ armies need any help.

Melissia wrote:IE punishing everyone that's not MEQ.

As if MEQ armies need any help.

The least numerous force in the galaxy fights 90% of the battles, (and has 50% of the codexs), go figure.

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:IE punishing everyone that's not MEQ.

As if MEQ armies need any help.

The least numerous force in the galaxy fights 90% of the battles, (and has 50% of the codexs), go figure.

lol, nicely put.

Pinning: The target unit takes a Leadership test with a -1 Modifier for every third hit on the unit. If they fail, they immediately Go To Ground. Fearless units take this test, and count at Leadership 10

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Pinning: The target unit takes a Leadership test with a -1 Modifier for every third hit on the unit. If they fail, they immediately Go To Ground. Fearless units take this test, and count at Leadership 10

Yeah, if pinning was based on hits and not unsaved wounds it would change the MEQ dynamic, but it would be unusual for a well armored unit (ie. terminators) to fear a couple of pings off the armor.

I'm sorry but giving infantry platoons the ability to fire guns then assault is just way too much, I mean think of how annoying combined squads are already, don't need them shooting first

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Pinning: The target unit takes a Leadership test with a -1 Modifier for every third hit on the unit. If they fail, they immediately Go To Ground. Fearless units take this test, and count at Leadership 10

Yeah, if pinning was based on hits and not unsaved wounds it would change the MEQ dynamic, but it would be unusual for a well armored unit (ie. terminators) to fear a couple of pings off the armor.

I don't know if it would be unusual, if you're getting shot at, get behind something. It doesn't matter how much armor you're wearing that's just common sense. Also, Terminators are supposed to be veterans so you'd think they would know this already. The only army this doesn't make sense for is BT.

There just needs to be a change in the perception of what going to ground is, it's not sticking your head between your legs to kiss your butt good bye, it's about moving to where the bullets aren't flying at you.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Pinning: The target unit takes a Leadership test with a -1 Modifier for every third hit on the unit. If they fail, they immediately Go To Ground. Fearless units take this test, and count at Leadership 10

Yeah, if pinning was based on hits and not unsaved wounds it would change the MEQ dynamic, but it would be unusual for a well armored unit (ie. terminators) to fear a couple of pings off the armor.

I don't know if it would be unusual, if you're getting shot at, get behind something. It doesn't matter how much armor you're wearing that's just common sense. Also, Terminators are supposed to be veterans so you'd think they would know this already. The only army this doesn't make sense for is BT.

There just needs to be a change in the perception of what going to ground is, it's not sticking your head between your legs to kiss your butt good bye, it's about moving to where the bullets aren't flying at you.

Unless you feel as though the bullets can't hurt you, in which case, why would you run anywhere? Also, standing out in the open and getting shot at is what terminators are for, though, as you say, they are not stupid, but that just means to keep their head down is a tactical decision rather than a reaction.

Of course it is. That tactical decision is The Pinning Test!

Note: Units with Rage! are immune to Pinning.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Of course it is. That tactical decision is The Pinning Test!

Note: Units with Rage! are immune to Pinning.

Actually you are mistaken, pinning is a reaction to being scared of being shot in the head. tactical decisions are what you make with your troops, if the tactical decisions were made by dice we wouldn't need players at all.