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Wrong page of the FAQ I was thinking the rule that destroys a vehicle not coming wholly onto the board.

You are arbitraily defining it, because you are equating this statement "Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared." with stopping

I am sorry, please tell me where this says it means it stops, using specific language that it stops. I say it is not stopped then. Why is it stopped.

You clearly have no idea when you are making an arbitrary assumption and when you are actually applying rules.

calypso2ts wrote:Wrong page of the FAQ I was thinking the rule that destroys a vehicle not coming wholly onto the board.

I'm still not sure what you're talking about. Can you quote the rule you're thinking of or provide a page number for it?

calypso2ts wrote:You are arbitraily defining it, because you are equating this statement "Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared." with stopping

I am sorry, please tell me where this says it means it stops, using specific language that it stops. I say it is not stopped then. Why is it stopped.

Well, the rule says to move the vehicle UNTIL it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared. In other words, once one of those two conditions are fulfilled, you STOP moving the vehicle.

The Tank shock rules are clear.

you do not stop the tank when resolving a tank shock.

P.68 backs this up.

"If an enemy unit other than a vehicle is reached...,the unit must take a Morale check and will fall back immediately if it fails it. If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there. Regardless of the result of the test the tank keeps moving straight on,..."

It lets the tank through as if the unit was not there, this is the first clue that the tank does not actually stop.

the tank keeps moving, This is the second clue that the tank does not stop. Had it said 'the tank starts moving again' then I could see it, but it does not.

Fetterkey wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:You are arbitraily defining it, because you are equating this statement "Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared." with stopping

I am sorry, please tell me where this says it means it stops, using specific language that it stops. I say it is not stopped then. Why is it stopped.

Well, the rule says to move the vehicle UNTIL it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared. In other words, once one of those two conditions are fulfilled, you STOP moving the vehicle.

Fetter, It does say move until, then once you find out its a unit and not a vehicle, the opponent checks morale, and then you "Regardless of the result of the test the tank keeps moving"

There does seem to be a lot of Arguing for the Sake of Arguing going on in here...

This thread's life expectancy just got extremely short...

DeathReaper wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:You are arbitraily defining it, because you are equating this statement "Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared." with stopping

I am sorry, please tell me where this says it means it stops, using specific language that it stops. I say it is not stopped then. Why is it stopped.

Well, the rule says to move the vehicle UNTIL it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared. In other words, once one of those two conditions are fulfilled, you STOP moving the vehicle.

Fetter, It does say move until, then once you find out its a unit and not a vehicle, the opponent checks morale, and then you "Regardless of the result of the test the tank keeps moving"

You move until you contact the enemy, pause to resolve the shock, then continue your move once the test is resolved (assuming you aren't immobilized/stunned/destroyed by Death or Glory). However, since you have stopped (even momentarily) to resolve the shock, you satisfy the "if the tank is forced to stop for any reason" clause, and thus are destroyed if any part of your vehicle is currently off table.

I note that nobody has offered any response to my original question.

The unit has to test morale, because the tank does not stop.
(There is your answer to your original question.)

you move the tank, find out its going to contact an enemy, have him roll his Morale check, then KEEP MOVING.

"If an enemy unit other than a vehicle is reached...,the unit must take a Morale check and will fall back immediately if it fails it. If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there."

you are never told to stop the vehicles movement. When you resolve the tank shock the vehicle has not stopped, since you have not reached the distance declared, and you have not come within one inch of an enemy vehicle.

If you find that you contact a non vehicle enemy unit, you simply have the opponent Check Morale, then you keep moving your vehicle.

Good lord he just doesn't get it. Please no more feeding the troll. This is almost getting as bad as any one of the million Deffrolla threads that popped up.

Well, in the end ask your TO. It's already been ruled at one GT [with a nice infamous picture to go along with it] that you can't tank shock when the enemy lines the board, so there's a precedent for you. If your TO wants to allow it, then there you go.

Long story short: Not worth the risk, F*ing deploy something if they have infiltrators.

Fetterkey,

You combining two distinct situations into one word, "stopping" being defined as:

1). the tank-shocking vehicle be stopped by a successful death-or-glory action or by an unsuccessful dangerous-terrain roll;

2). stopping or keeping incompletely on the full action of movement so as to see how the tank-shock action will resolve itself.

Choosing to put your model off board, or on board to represent where you want the model to end should the tank shock be successful, does not "stop" it as in #1, but represents what may or may not happen, as in #2.

But I think you knew that already.

Spellbound wrote:Well, in the end ask your TO. It's already been ruled at one GT [with a nice infamous picture to go along with it] that you can't tank shock when the enemy lines the board, so there's a precedent for you. If your TO wants to allow it, then there you go.

Long story short: Not worth the risk, F*ing deploy something if they have infiltrators.

No, the ruling was that the Space Marine player with an all bike army could not get onto the board because of infiltrators lining up along the board edge. The guy had no tanks. So there is no precedent, and a random judges ruling does not mean anything anyway.

Ah, thought he had rhinos too. Just because he was white scars doesn't mean he had all bikes.

And really, "random judges' rulings" do actually matter.....because the more of them the are, the more it's generally accepted, and it all starts with one

Still, good advice is good: Don't go all reserves if they have infiltrators. Avoid the argument and the sportsmanship dock if the judge goes in your favor, and the loss if he goes in the opponent's.

This is a simple example of how poorly worded the rules are at times and how some people and/or trolls, enjoy pointing them out and causing a stir in forums.

The only reason a vehicle stops at the point of contact is to roll leadership and determine if a death or glory might happen, which can immobilize or destroy said vehicle at that point. Technically the vehicle never stops moving until it is either stopped by a death or glory result of immobilize, wreck, or destroy, or until it completes it's entire tank shock.

We all get what you're trying to say Fetterkey, but you'll be hard pressed to even find the worst trolls in the 40k community to agree with your interpretation.

Does that mean that my tanks cannot make turns during their move onto the table, unless said turns are made with the whole tank on that table? The tank would have to stop in order to turn on the spot!
If you agree that a tank turning during the course of it's move would constitute violation of the stopping clause then you are a troll.

Of course this also means that even if you are able to tank shock, if the enemy stuns or immobilized the vehicle, it and all its passengers die.

So again, is it really worth it? No. Deploy so they can't infiltrate across your line.

DeathReaper wrote:The unit has to test morale, because the tank does not stop.
(There is your answer to your original question.)

you move the tank, find out its going to contact an enemy, have him roll his Morale check, then KEEP MOVING.

"If an enemy unit other than a vehicle is reached...,the unit must take a Morale check and will fall back immediately if it fails it. If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there."

you are never told to stop the vehicles movement. When you resolve the tank shock the vehicle has not stopped, since you have not reached the distance declared, and you have not come within one inch of an enemy vehicle.

If you find that you contact a non vehicle enemy unit, you simply have the opponent Check Morale, then you keep moving your vehicle.

Your quotation ignores earlier parts of the rules, which clearly indicate that once you come into contact with an enemy unit or reach the distance declared in your initial move, you stop moving forward to resolve the shock; unfortunately, this is indeed stopping "for any reason," so you're destroyed if you have to do so off table. Keep in mind that one good rule of thumb to test the accuracy of a rules interpretation is to see which interpretation better meshes with the way people actually play. In this case, I think you'll find that nearly everyone stops their tank when it contacts an enemy unit, resolves the Tank Shock, and then moves the tank further from that point on. I'm actually confused as to how you would play otherwise.

axeman1n wrote:Does that mean that my tanks cannot make turns during their move onto the table, unless said turns are made with the whole tank on that table? The tank would have to stop in order to turn on the spot!
If you agree that a tank turning during the course of it's move would constitute violation of the stopping clause then you are a troll.

You can't turn while tank shocking, so no.

Fetterkey, you asked a question, you got an answer that is logical and supported by the rulebook and FAQ. STOP ARGUING because you don't like the answer!

He was talking about normal movement where you can turn. I move my Immolator 6" and pause to turn it so it can go around an obstacle. Does that momentary pause end the movement phase as the vehicle "stopped" moving while I turned it to face the direction I was moving. To go one further. I move a mob of 30 Boyz. I pick the first one up and move him. While going to pick up the second model no one in the mob is moving so again by your scewed logic I can no longer move anyone esle as I ended the movement phase for that unit.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:He was talking about normal movement where you can turn. I move my Immolator 6" and pause to turn it so it can go around an obstacle. Does that momentary pause end the movement phase as the vehicle "stopped" moving while I turned it to face the direction I was moving. To go one further. I move a mob of 30 Boyz. I pick the first one up and move him. While going to pick up the second model no one in the mob is moving so again by your scewed logic I can no longer move anyone esle as I ended the movement phase for that unit.

This is a textbook straw man argument-- I in no way believe that you have to end your unit's movement any time you make a temporary stop. However, I do believe that, when tank shocking from off table, you have to be entirely on the table before stopping for any reason-- including temporary stops-- or else you are destroyed. This is supported by the FAQ, which states that "if the tank is forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count as destroyed." Any reason. Not "any reason except for when you pause to resolve a shock."

Snickerdoodle wrote:Fetterkey, you asked a question, you got an answer that is logical and supported by the rulebook and FAQ. STOP ARGUING because you don't like the answer!

Sorry, but I think my interpretation is more supported by the rulebook and FAQ. There's no rule that says I have to go along with people's answers here if they don't make sense or aren't supported by the rules.

But that is just it fetter, you are never forced to stop when tank shocking unless you hit a friendly model or come within one inch of another vehicle. (Or a terrain test that you roll a 1 for)

"If an enemy unit other than a vehicle is reached...,the unit must take a Morale check and will fall back immediately if it fails it. If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there."

See the "the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there"?

That tells us the tank does not stop, we may have to stop moving the tank for a second because the enemy needs to resolve his morale check, but the tank has not stopped.

If your interpretation was true you could never bring units with more than one model onto the board. But your interpretation breaks units in reserves so that should be a clue that it is not the correct interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:That tells us the tank does not stop, we may have to stop moving the tank for a second because the enemy needs to resolve his morale check, but the tank has not stopped.

"We may have to stop moving the tank, but the tank has not stopped." When you're making statements like that, you know you're trying to twist the rules. In general statements that fly in the face of all normal logic tend to indicate a tortured interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:If your interpretation was true you could never bring units with more than one model onto the board. But your interpretation breaks units in reserves so that should be a clue that it is not the correct interpretation.

You don't seem to be reading my posts. I've quoted my above response to Boss GreenNutz, since it applies to your remark as well.

Fetterkey wrote:This is a textbook straw man argument-- I in no way believe that you have to end your unit's movement any time you make a temporary stop. However, I do believe that, when tank shocking from off table, you have to be entirely on the table before stopping for any reason-- including temporary stops-- or else you are destroyed. This is supported by the FAQ, which states that "if the tank is forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count as destroyed." Any reason. Not "any reason except for when you pause to resolve a shock."

Alright: here's the thing, the moral check does not stop the vehicle. It is part of the move, just like pivoting and/or turning.

Furthermore, if you say it pauses (stops and is therefore destroyed) because of the moral check, would you say the same thing for a vehicle moving onto the board into difficult/dangerous terrain?

Shrike325 wrote:Alright: here's the thing, the moral check does not stop the vehicle. It is part of the move, just like pivoting and/or turning.

Furthermore, if you say it pauses (stops and is therefore destroyed) because of the moral check, would you say the same thing for a vehicle moving onto the board into difficult/dangerous terrain?

I'm not saying it pauses because of the Morale check, I'm saying it pauses because the Tank Shock rules clearly indicate that you move forward UNTIL you contact an enemy unit, then proceed with the effects of the shock as appropriate.

First you say:

Fetterkey wrote:This is a textbook straw man argument-- I in no way believe that you have to end your unit's movement any time you make a temporary stop.

Then you say:

Fetterkey wrote:However, I do believe that, when tank shocking from off table, you have to be entirely on the table before stopping for any reason-- including temporary stops-- or else you are destroyed.

That second part is wrong because the tank never stops moving.

Again by your interpretation stopping to test for difficult terrain would destroy a tank as well regardless of the outcome, which can not be backed up by the rules. and would disallow any non-skimmer vehicle from coming onto the board through a piece of terrain.

If you read the quote:

"Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared."

So you move the vehicle until one of these two situations happens.

"If an enemy unit other than a vehicle is reached...,the unit must take a Morale check and will fall back immediately if it fails it. If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through as if it was not there. Regardless of the result of the test the tank keeps moving straight on,..."

This is what happens when you reach an enemy unit other than a vehicle. It does not say to stop the vehicle, so you do not stop the vehicle. This is backed up by the statement "The tank keeps moving" it statement indicates the tank never actually stops in the first place. and the enemy takes a Morale check, that is all that happens, the tank does not stop.

We have to stop physically moving the tank so we can have the opponent check morale, this is not the same as the tank stopping.

If you can not see this slight, yet important difference, then I can not be of anymore help with this situation.

I remember when the Tank Shock on the board debate first started. The against it crowd argued that you have to be on the table to initiate a tank shock.

Fetterkey, while I agree with your logic, and believe me, as a player with a scout heavy army I would love for this to be so....what the stop portion of the rules means is that the tanks movement has to have permanently ended for some reason. The stop to let a unit take a morale check is a pause, in movement, not an actual stop.

Now, if I am not mistaken, you can't ram a vehicle coming off the board, because you do have to stop, correct?

DeathReaper wrote:First you say:

Fetterkey wrote:This is a textbook straw man argument-- I in no way believe that you have to end your unit's movement any time you make a temporary stop.

Then you say:

Fetterkey wrote:However, I do believe that, when tank shocking from off table, you have to be entirely on the table before stopping for any reason-- including temporary stops-- or else you are destroyed.

That second part is wrong because the tank never stops moving.

Correct. These two statements work together because the first statement refers to all movement, and the second statement refers only to Tank Shocking from off table, which has more stringent standards applied to it. Normal moves from off table do not have to abide by the same standards.

General Hobbs wrote:Fetterkey, while I agree with your logic, and believe me, as a player with a scout heavy army I would love for this to be so....what the stop portion of the rules means is that the tanks movement has to have permanently ended for some reason.

Why? The rule doesn't say that, it says if it stops "for any reason." "For any reason" doesn't mean "for any reason other than temporary stops/pauses."

General Hobbs wrote:
Now, if I am not mistaken, you can't ram a vehicle coming off the board, because you do have to stop, correct?

Not exactly, you only halt if the vehicle that is rammed is not removed.
If the rammed vehicle suffers a 'destroyed - explodes' result, the ramming vehicle continues to move.
Not real good odds though. 5 of 6 results on the vehicle damage table will stop the ramming vehicle in its tracks, and if it is off the board it will be removed.

Stops for any reason as in totally ends movement.

I think Shrike up above gives a great definition of what happens...the morale check is part of the movement, like a turn. You're only "stopping" because you have to let the other player do their thing.

Once the vehicle is totally done moving and will not be moved further is when it has stopped.

But again, we are in a blurry area between RAI and RAW.

To everyone who is arguing that Fetterkey is wrong, because everyone else says so, I think you need to step back and reassess the arguement here made on pure RAW grounds. You're declaring yourselves right because you think you are, not because you actually are correct.

This arguement hinged on the definition of what a stop is.

General Hobbs wrote:This arguement hinged on the definition of what a stop is.

Exactly, and if "the tank keeps moving" you have not stopped. this is an indicator that the tank has not stopped.

If the tank had stopped, then it would not be able to move anywhere until your next movement phase, since its turn to move this phase would be over.

General Hobbs wrote:To everyone who is arguing that Fetterkey is wrong, because everyone else says so, I think you need to step back and reassess the arguement here made on pure RAW grounds. You're declaring yourselves right because you think you are, not because you actually are correct.

This arguement hinged on the definition of what a stop is.

stop/stäp/
Verb: (of an event, action, or process) Come to an end; cease.
Noun: A cessation of movement or operation.

Now I know that this violates a YMDC rule because standard dictionary definitions are not to be used in rules debates, but that is a definition of 'stop'.

However, right in the tank shock rule, the tanks only stops moving when it reaches the distance declared, contacts a friendly unit, or comes within 1" of an enemy vehicle.

There is also nothing that says the tank has to 'pause' or 'wait' for the enemy unit to take their morale test.

Say I declare a 12" tank shock. There is an enemy unit 4" from my tank. I simply move the tank 12" forward and place it on the table. Now it has "stopped". The enemy unit takes its morale test and applies the result.
If the enemy unit decides to attempt a death or glory attack, it does so and the results of that attack are then applied. This may require me to place the tank back along its route an in contact with the enemy unit.
I haven't 'moved' back, I have simply placed the tank on the table as per the rule.

Honestly, the thing that makes me believe that the vehicle is destroyed is the phrase "for any reason." Without that, I'd agree that the vehicle hasn't really ended its movement when it contacts the unit, and therefore hasn't really stopped, but the phrase "for any reason" makes it seem to me that a higher standard applies.