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cgmckenzie wrote:Yes, and then it goes on to say that you place it back where it was when it first contacted the terrain this turn. So a vehicle entering terrain will stop just outside of it and one starting in terrain won't move.

-cgmckenzie

It never says you place the vehicle back where it first contacted the terrain.
It says if it was attempting to enter the terrain it stops just outside.

Kevin949 wrote:Actually since the rules use the past tense verbiage of the three words "has entered, has moved, has left" it would mean after movement is completed. If they meant for you to do it during the move then it would say "will enter, will move, will leave".

And if they meant for you to move the vehicle the full distance and then take the test it wouldn't say "...if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside." {emphasis mine}

You cannot attempt to do something you have already completed.

Time wizard, I am confused as to what you are arguing for.

Moving to where it first contacted it is just outside of the terrain, along its path of movement. If you just went to 'just outside the terrain' you could place it anywhere along the edge of the terrain feature.

-cgmckenzie

I am arguing the point that the vehicle completes its move and then takes the test and if it fails the test is moved back to where it began its move.

All one has to do is measure for the vehicle's move and place the tape on the table, take the test and apply the result.

You wouldn't, for example, move a tank 6" into difficult terrain, and if you fail the test move it back the edge of the terrain and place it there.

What you should do is measure the tank's move, and if that move will take it into difficult terrain, roll the die.

If you roll a '1' you then move the tank forward to the edge of the terrain and it halts there and is immobilized.

This is even more important if you are leaving the terrain. If you move, roll and fail, how do you know for sure you are moving it back to where it originally was?

Plus, you could argue that you have moved the vehicle 6", then taken the test, and if you failed it the vehicle now "halts immediately" at that point and doesn't have to be moved back.

Which goes against the rules and would gain the tank 6" of movement that it couldn't make, by rule.

Situation: You are moving a tank across 3 1" thick areas of tank traps.

In this manner you will be doing all 3 entering, exiting, and moving through an area of dangerous terrain(3 of them in fact).

What the rules support is making the move, then taking the test at the end of the move, and being immobilized in place at the end of the move.

You cannot simply test at the first tank trap, because the timing is past tense, and would not support the "one of more" portion of the rules.

You cannot "rewind" the movement because there are 3 areas you have moved through and have no way of knowing which of the 3 areas the tank was immobilized in.

Finally as I pointed out early that line that is so precious to the supporters of "Test as you Enter" is just an example, and a poor one that breaks the rules at that. You can enter, exit, and move through area terrain all in the same move; the example only pertains to entering and still breaks the rules lain out before it when discussing that.

Soooooooo..... you were immobilized by the first tank trap but somehow magically manged to move through another two tank traps and still continue some distance beyond before finally coming to a halt? Yeah, good luck explaining that to your opponent.

If you're going to claim it's RAW, it belongs in the ludicrous RAW thread.

Edit: And I understand (but don't agree with) your argument about the fact that you don't know exactly were the tank became immobilized, but your opponent is going to understand it the way I stated it. Hence the "good luck explaining" comment.

Certainly: why is it that all tanks get bogged down upon the first obstacle? That is even less realistic.

If you wanted a "Fluff" type explanation(especially for the event that you travel through 1 area and are immobilized a few inches past the terrain) then momentum can always be claimed, as could mud and etc fouling the tracks.

A thrown track, flat tire, or fouled tracks rarely stop a moving vehicle immediately, some distance is generally traveled.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Certainly: why is it that all tanks get bogged down upon the first obstacle? That is even less realistic.

Page 57 upper right, "Vehicles attempting to move thrrough broken terrain are not slowed down like other units, but risk becomming stuck, bogged down or damaged."

If you wanted a "Fluff" type explanation(especially for the event that you travel through 1 area and are immobilized a few inches past the terrain) then momentum can always be claimed, as could mud and etc fouling the tracks.

Kommissar Kel wrote:A thrown track, flat tire, or fouled tracks rarely stop a moving vehicle immediately, some distance is generally traveled.

Maybe the thrown track, flat tire, or fouled tracks won't stop the vehicle immediately, by a simple 12mm cube can. "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately..."

And yes, it is less realistic. The entire game is not realistic. It is just a game.

No, it is plenty realistic when you take the test when the rules say to take the test.

After you have finished moving; your vehicle then halts immediately and is immobilized.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, it is plenty realistic when you take the test when the rules say to take the test.

After you have finished moving; your vehicle then halts immediately and is immobilized.

"Roll a D6 for every vehilce that has entered, left or moved through one or more area of dangerous terrain during its move." [emphasis mine]

Not roll at the end of its move. Roll during its move.

There's the quote from the rulebook.

Now quote the part that says you don't take the dangerous terrain test until after the vehicle has completed its move.

WOW!

That is the biggest reading comprehension fail/twisting of a sentence into one that does not even make sense that I have ever seen.

During in that sentence does not reference the roll, it references when the moving into, out of, or through the terrain occurred.

Now that we have that out of the way; you have provided the quote that says to test last: "Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move."

I have bolded all the relevant bits, the triggers if you will, and their particular Tenses; all Past. I italicized the "S" in areas to call attention to the fact that it is Plural, as in more than 1. You cannot move through more than 1 area if you test on the first.

WOW!

The rules refers to taking a test for every area that you have entered, left or moved through so that if you leave one area of difficult terrain and enter another you take one test, not two.

And if you test at the end of the move after you have entered the terrain, as you suggest, reconcile that with "...if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside." {emphasis mine}

For the last time, please quote the part of the rule that says you test after you have completed the move.

rule book wrote: ...if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside.

The vehicle tests the moment it first touches terrain during a given move. It's the only way the rule can work consistently.

No they do not.

Not even close; they do not say roll 1d6 for every area; they say roll 1d6 when you have entered exited, or moved through 1 or more.

You only make 1 test, you make that test after you have fulfilled the requirements(at the end of your movement, since movement is an exact process, not declarative)

I have already reconciled the bad example, in that it is an example, and one that breaks the rules.

I have quoted where it says you test after the move, you just need to learn what words mean when used in the past tense. Please quote a text, any text(aside from the rule-breaking example), that can even be interpreted as test as you move.

You take one test. If you are attempting to enter terrain and fail that test, you are stopped "just outside".

That rule has been consistent for three editions now.

Please try to engage in this discussion with a more polite tone.

Mannahnin is right. Test when you hit the first piece of terrain. If you fail, you stop there.

If you are in terrain, test when you start. If you fail, don't move.

-cgmckenzie

Mannahnin wrote:You take one test. If you are attempting to enter terrain and fail that test, you are stopped "just outside".

That rule has been consistent for three editions now.

Please try to engage in this discussion with a more polite tone.

While I thoroughly agree that you take 1 test; I disagree when you take the test.

The only support for taking the test prior to the end of movement is the example(which I am about to demonstrate why it is flawed).

The example is flawed for several reasons:

1) It discounts the tense usage within the rule itself.

2) It only concerns itself with entering terrain, not moving through, nor exiting.

3) It discounts the fact that movement, aside from Tank shock/ram, is not declarative(movement into difficult terrain is however declarative for non-vehicles, which is specified on page 14, 3rd paragraph)

As to your remark about the consistency of the rule; it is incorrect. 4th edition was different, you Tested every time you entered(and the example in 5th was part of the rules in 4th)

4th edition BRB page 61; dangerous terrain tests for vehicles wrote: These tests are taken whenever a vehicle attempts to enter difficult terrain or to move through or out of it. If the test is failed the vehicle halts immediately. If it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside.

the rest of the rule deals with Speed and explains the dice results.

The 5th edition is a very different rule and only tests once, and then only at the end of the move; the example should be disregarded.

That 4th edition rule is the same as the 5th edition. They mean the same thing; if you move through terrain, you take the test. If you fail it, you stop where you were entering the terrain.

I am not seeing what you fail to understand about this. It is a very simple rule.

-cgmckenzie

The "Whenever a vehicle attempts to move", is much different from "When it has moved".

In 4th you took multiple tests, in 5th you take 1 test.

In 4th you took the test as you attempted to make the move, in 5th you take the test after you have moved.

They are very different.

I believe 3rd was the same or similar to 4th(only lacking the Speed rules), but will not have access to a 3rd edition book for comparison until much later tonight.

The only meaning to the tense change is so they can express in one sentence that you only test once if you're passing through multiple areas of terrain.

The tense change was not the only change though; the intention to move into, through, or out of terrain triggered the test in 4th; in 5th the entire verbiage is rearranged to have the action itself incur the, now single, test.

The rules for vehicles in regards to difficult/dangerous terrain has changed from 4th, and I am rather surprised it wasn't really noticed until this thread(and the relative "nearness" we are to 6th).

If they had meant for it to only be a single test and occur upon intention, they could have left the "attempts to" in the rule, also they would have not needed the past tense wording.

In fact they could have kept the same 4th edition rule only change the word "whenever" into the phrase "The first time". it would look like this: "These tests are taken the first time a vehicle attempts to enter difficult terrain or to move through or out of it. If the test is failed the vehicle halts immediately. If it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

As it stands now, you only take 1 test, you take that test after the vehicle has moved and fulfilled the requirements of the test, and the bit about stopping short is a unrepresentative example improperly copy-pasted from the old rules.

No.

Just looking at the current rules, it's reasonably clear, although I can see how the use of past tense has confused you.

The first paragraph of the relevant section on p57 uses the verbiage "attempting to move through", which establishes immediately that vehicles attempt to move through difficult ground. They don't automatically do so and then suffer a potential consequence after succeeding. The second paragraph uses the past tense in the second sentence. But the third and fourth perfectly support what I'm talking about. On a result of 2-6 "the vehicle can carry on moving", and a result of 1 means it "halts immediately and suffers an Immobilised damage result".

For your interpretation to be correct you have to ignore the "halts immediately" text, as well as the next bit which talks about stopping just outside difficult terrain if the vehicle was attempting to enter. The two together, especially in context with the first paragraph, make it about as clear as any 40k rule.

You have not found an Easter Egg. You have not made a discovery which people around the world have missed. You've just made a mistaken interpretation.

The first paragraph simply tells you that they are not slowed down by attempting to move through difficult terrain, and that they risk immobilization by doing such.

The second describes when to test, which is where it tells you to test when you have done such. later it starts to get confused with it's own rules when it gives you an example.

The third paragraph countermands part of the second, when it tells you that you and your opponent are to agree when difficult terrain does not automatically become dangerous terrain. It also tells you that some clear terrain for non-vehicles can be impassable or dangerous for vehicles.

The "halts immediately" portion can and should be ignored just like the "stops just outside of the terrain" example simply because they are both a hold over from the way the rules worked in previous editions and are not supported by the rules for when you test.

Kommissar Kel wrote: The "halts immediately" portion can and should be ignored just like the "stops just outside of the terrain" example simply because they are both a hold over from the way the rules worked in previous editions and are not supported by the rules for when you test.

So you are deciding to just ignore part of the rule.

Why not ignore the 'suffers an immobilized damage result' as well?

Or just ignore the whole rule and don't even bother with taking dangerous terrain tests for vehicles.

Saying "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately..." is "an example" and not a part of the actual rule is absurd.

I never said "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately..." is "an example" and not a part of the actual rule.

I said "so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside." was an example; since the usage and context the word so preceding the rest of the phrase indicates that it is an example.

I have also provided several examples of that usage of the word "so" in the same context(and called attention to it) several times in this thread, just to illustrate my point.

In fact you trying to claim that I was saying "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately..." is "an example" when you quoted my exact statement; where that is clearly not at all what I said leaves something to be desired on your end. You are deliberately twisting the text(of my post) to make unfounded(and the evidence given, itself, dis-proven) claims.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I never said "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately..." is "an example" and not a part of the actual rule.

Gee, I'm sorry, you're right. You never said "halts immediately" was an example, just that it can and should be ignored.

So I stand by what I said, if you are going to ignore the "halst immediately" part of the rule, then I would guess that I would be free to ignore a part of the rule that I feel like ignoring, right?

Kommissar Kel wrote: You are deliberately twisting the text(of my post) to make unfounded(and the evidence given, itself, dis-proven) claims.

Deliberately twisting your text, not at all. Neither my intention or my desire.

I would still like you to quote me that you take the test only at the end of movement.
I submit you cannot because it isn't there.
To hang your argument on the use of past tense proves nothing.

To you, you haven't "entered" the terrain until you have completed your move.
Wrong. The moment you begin to move into the terrain you have "entered" it.
So if you are attempting to move into the terrain and fail the test you stop just outside.
This is an example? Okay, it's an example.
It an example of how the rule is applied and how the game is played.
For you to decide to ignore part of the rule because it doesn't fit into your opinion of the tense used in the rule is in error.

If you want to house rule it and play it that you take the test and apply the results at the end of the vehicle's move, that is entirely up to you.
But this is a rules forum, and by RAW, you take the test and apply the results immediately you enter, leave or move through any part of the terrain.

Show me in the text where it specifies "as you move" or that it is tested anytime before all things have come to pass.

I can show you, in the text, where I get my interpretation from, you can only tell me you get yours from 2 words that state the opposite of the rest of the text; and 1 example that handles 1 situation and also ignores the rest of the text.

You are correct, to me, you have not "entered" 1 or more areas of dangerous terrain until after you have finished moving; but that is mainly because you cannot have entered 1 or more area if you are testing before you enter the first area.

the only reason I am even still arguing this is because the rule is not entirely 100% clear(what with the example and those 2 words) and this thread is for the benefit of a 3rd party(as in; not me nor your camp). I truly feel it is important to hash this out.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Show me in the text where it specifies "as you move" or that it is tested anytime before all things have come to pass.

As I have quoted before, "A result of 2-6 on the dice means that the vehicle can carry on moving."
If you do not test until the end of the move, how and from where do you "carry on moving"?
"A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately...".
If you aren't testing until the end of your movement you have already halted.
If you are waiting until you have completed your movement, you might as well throw out this part of the rule.
This coupled with the last sentence that you advocate ignoring means that you would roll a D6 fro each vehicle that has entered, left or moved through difficult terrain, but you have no result to apply so there's no reason to roll the dice in the first place so that means that the entire rule gets ignored.

You keep saying that everything happens in the past tense.

Try this, I will buy a beer for everyone that has entered, left or moved through the bar.
You are already in the bar.
Do you have to leave before I buy you a beer?
If you move even 1 micron, you have "moved through the bar" and so qualify for a beer.

The rule is clear in that the roll is made when the vehicle attempts to move through the terrain.
This is 100% clear in the last sentence that says if the vehicle was attempting to enter the terrain it stops just outside.

The reason the rule states "one or more areas of dangerous terrain" is so that if the move you were attempting would take you out of 1 piece of terrain and into another, you would only have to take 1 test, not 2.
But if you were attempting to make such a move, and you rolled a '1', you would halt immediately, in the piece of terrain you were attempting to leave, you would not complete your move into the next piece of terrain and then halt there.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the only reason I am even still arguing this is because the rule is not entirely 100% clear(what with the example and those 2 words) and this thread is for the benefit of a 3rd party(as in; not me nor your camp). I truly feel it is important to hash this out.

I disagree. I feel that the rule is in fact 100% clear and that there really is nothing to hash out.

Kommissar is incorrect imo, for reasons that have been covered by others. Just wanted to add another name to the list of people who disagree with Kommissar's mistaken interpretation.

Do I merely have to have someone inform you that I am planning to move 1 micron for my Beer, or do I actually have to move said micron?

After I have moved said micron, I have then fulfilled your requirements for a free(to me) beer; but not until after I have moved.

Also if someone is outside of the bar, you are not going to stop them at the door and purchase them a beer, they would not have yet come inside.

What are you talking about!? Beer, bars, and real life have NOTHING to do with this rule.

Do it in this order"

move-hit terrain-stop-test-keep moving. If you fail test, don't start moving again.

The rule is incredibly simple and easy; why you insist that you have found a mistake or are the lone voice of reason is beyond me.

-cgmckenzie