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Hello folks, long time reader first time poster on dakka.

Today I came upon an issue I couldn´t really resolve during a friendly game at my house.

I had driven a Batlewagon into difficult terrain the round before and was thereby standing in it when my movement phase started.
Trying to move out of it I rolled a difficult terrain test and promptly failed, then came our question.

Can the unit embarked dismbark and make a move on their own during the same movement phase, or is the battlewagon counting as if it had moved?

As I was trying to move it I can imagine that it counts as moving, but it hasn´t really moved in any other aspect afaik (if assaulted, shooting with vehicle Weaponry etc.)
I´m leaning towards the ruling that the troops inside can disembark and move, but my opponent naturally disagreed and I did not get to move.

What do you guys think?

From memory, the only limitations on disembarking/moving comes from the distance the vehicle moved. The only time what happens to a vehicle and it affects the passengers is a stunned shaken result ( or destroyed). If your wagon did not move, the troops inside should be free to disembark and move.

You were wrong; but don't worry, it wasn't just about the idea of not having actually moved, it was everything!

Vehicles do not take a test for beginning their move in Difficult terrain; they take it for "entering, exiting, or moving through" difficult terrain.

This means that only 2 attempts will end movement prematurely: Entering and exiting.

When you are entering Difficult you take a test and if you roll a 1 you are immobilized just prior to entering.

When you are exiting you will take the test at the edge and if the 1 is rolled become immobilized at the edge just before leaving.

When you are moving through, you will have started and ended in the same difficult terrain, and take the test after you have finished moving; if you fail you are then Immobilized.

In all 3 cases actual movement will have taken place excepting 1 circumstance: you last move was ended exactly at the edge(entering or exiting) of an area of difficult terrain. It is this 1 circumstance that there is no rules to cover the situation; but I would count the vehicle as moving on account of if it was not moving, it could not have gotten immobilized.

I think he means for possibility of assaulting, as you can't assault if the vehilcle has moved at all.

I think it would count as moving but failed, as the dangerous terrain result says it stops immediately. Same as if you roll difficutl terrain and op to not move you still count as moving.

So,I'd say yes it counts as moved. Since you have to stop immediately when failed dangerous terrain test.

Kommissar Kel's point is that (except for some very unusual circumstances) you become immobilized after you have moved some distance. So you do stop immediately upon failing your test, but you only take that test after you have moved some distance. Therefore, by the time you fail the test you must have moved.

mpangelu wrote:I think he means for possibility of assaulting, as you can't assault if the vehilcle has moved at all.

I think it would count as moving but failed, as the dangerous terrain result says it stops immediately. Same as if you roll difficutl terrain and op to not move you still count as moving.

So,I'd say yes it counts as moved. Since you have to stop immediately when failed dangerous terrain test.

Battle wagons are generally left Open-topped; which means you Can assault after moving.

Also infantry disembarking from a vehicle that has moved may not move any farther in the movement phase, while disembarking from a vehicle that has not yet moved can, in fact move their full 6"(or d6" if in difficult terrain).

So your first point is not valid.

Ahh, O lmew trukks were open topped, I didn't know battle waggons were. But yes fair points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You were wrong; but don't worry, it wasn't just about the idea of not having actually moved, it was everything!

Vehicles do not take a test for beginning their move in Difficult terrain; they take it for "entering, exiting, or moving through" difficult terrain.

This means that only 2 attempts will end movement prematurely: Entering and exiting.

When you are entering Difficult you take a test and if you roll a 1 you are immobilized just prior to entering.

When you are exiting you will take the test at the edge and if the 1 is rolled become immobilized at the edge just before leaving.

When you are moving through, you will have started and ended in the same difficult terrain, and take the test after you have finished moving; if you fail you are then Immobilized.

In all 3 cases actual movement will have taken place excepting 1 circumstance: you last move was ended exactly at the edge(entering or exiting) of an area of difficult terrain. It is this 1 circumstance that there is no rules to cover the situation; but I would count the vehicle as moving on account of if it was not moving, it could not have gotten immobilized.

Ahh, I see. was probably less than half an inch left in dificult terrain, but that is enough then, and I should move that much and then take the test.

Thanks for clearing that out mate.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You were wrong; but don't worry, it wasn't just about the idea of not having actually moved, it was everything!

Vehicles do not take a test for beginning their move in Difficult terrain; they take it for "entering, exiting, or moving through" difficult terrain.

This means that only 2 attempts will end movement prematurely: Entering and exiting.

I believe you are wrong here. All 3 attempts will end movement.
If you are in difficult terrain, and a 6" move would leave you still in the terrain, you still must take the test as you are "moving through" the terrain.
If you roll a '1'. the vehicle halts immediately and is immobilized.
If the vehicle is outside the terrain it stops just outside, but if it is in the terrain, it doesn't matter if its move would take it out of the terrain or leave it still in the terrain, a failed dangerous terrain test means it stops immediately, does not move at all, and is immobilized.
It still attempted to move, so it would still count as moving for shooting and embarked passengers purposes.

If you are in terrain and try to move to another point still in the terrain, you take the test. Difficult/dangerous terrain isn't just a wall wrapped around the terrain, it is the entire area designated difficult. Take the test even if you don't enter or exit but still try to move through.

It is akin to rolling to move infantry through difficult terrain but not liking the roll and not moving. You still count as moving and are limited to the roll you threw.

-cgmckenzie

how can you be 'moveing through' terrain if you haven't moved?

When you are going to move through the terrain, you take a dangerous terrain test. On a roll of 1, you are immobilized. You don't physically move but something happened that immobilized you, so for rules purposes you did move.

If you just sit in the terrain and don't try to go anywhere, you don't have to take the test.

-cgmckenzie

the rules don't say "when your going to move through terrain..." They say "moving through terrain" logic says i have to move before i've moved through it.

VoxDei wrote:the rules don't say "when your going to move through terrain..." They say "moving through terrain" logic says i have to move before i've moved through it.

And when you roll the dice for the test, "A result of 1 means that the vehicle hallts immediately and suffers an immobilized damage result..."

So how many inches does the rule say you have to move before you immediately halt?
.5 inches? 1 inch? 6 inches?

In fact, it doesn't. Even the first paragraph starts with, "Vehicles attempting to move through broken terrain..."

Plus, look at difficult terrain tests for infantry. If you roll you don't have to move at al, but you still count as moving for shooting purposes.

Logic might say you have to move, but the rules say that on a result of '1' the vehicle halts immediately.
Which logically means you don't move the vehicle at all and it's immobilized to boot.

The clear and obvious answer for moving through terrain is to pickup a huge handful of tiny dice and drop them continuously while you are moving, if at any point one of those dice land on a 1; then you stop moving and are immobilized.

Or you just make the test at the end of your move since that is the only way you will have been moving through terrain and not entering, nor exiting it.

Kommissar Kel wrote: The clear and obvious answer for moving through terrain is to pickup a huge handful of tiny dice and drop them continuously while you are moving, if at any point one of those dice land on a 1; then you stop moving and are immobilized.

Now that's just silly!

Kommissar Kel wrote: Or you just make the test at the end of your move since that is the only way you will have been moving through terrain and not entering, nor exiting it.

Or you could say, "I'm going to move my tank 6". If you are in difficult terrain you then pick up a die and if you roll a '1', then your tank "...halts immediately and suffers an immobilised damage result..." like the rules say.
If, however, you roll a '2' through '5', then "...the vehicle can carry on moving." so you move your tank the full 6"
Just like it's written in the rulebook.

And then you run into the issue of having a model with an intent to move, becoming immobilized, and not actually moving(leading us to this exact question).

Note also the verbiage on terrain effects and when you take the test: "Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has Entered, left, or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during it's move."

Gee, that all sounds awful Past tense doesn't it? In fact it even says right there in that sentence that you are going to be taking 1 test no matter how many of the above apply, and that it will be at the end of the move.

The FAQ changes when/how you do entering, but everything else remains the same. In fact I retract my earlier statement for the only time you take the test before moving; that is when you begin your movement abutting the terrain and have every intention of entering it; and that is only due to the FAQ rule-change.

Starting your movement abutted to the terrain, rolling, and becoming immobilized is the same thing as being in it, rolling, and becoming immobilized. The terrain behind you doesn't matter, just the stuff you are about to roll through.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Starting your movement abutted to the terrain, rolling, and becoming immobilized is the same thing as being in it, rolling, and becoming immobilized. The terrain behind you doesn't matter, just the stuff you are about to roll through.

-cgmckenzie

Not according to those things we work under; y'know, rules. You take the test after you have moved; it is then that you are immediately immobilized.

I already quoted the text that explains this, if you would like to read it yourself in a nice Hard-copy format open your BRB to page 57; when does it say to take the test?

Does it say to take the test when you are intending to enter, exit, or move through 1 or more areas of terrain?

Or does it say to take the test after you have entered, exited, or moved through 1 or more areas of terrain?

Also new point of order: GW wised up to their own FAQ mistake; the test at the edge of terrain has been removed from the FAQ(I am assuming they did that since it is against the rules); so now it is 100% after you have moved in all cases, there is 0-chance and no way to intend to move your vehicle and have it become immobilized prior to any actual dangerous terrain movement.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Also new point of order: GW wised up to their own FAQ mistake; the test at the edge of terrain has been removed from the FAQ(I am assuming they did that since it is against the rules); so now it is 100% after you have moved in all cases, there is 0-chance and no way to intend to move your vehicle and have it become immobilized prior to any actual dangerous terrain movement.

Where is that FAQ? Could you paste it or a link nere because I don't recall it.

Oh, and in keeping with the, y'know, rules, the rule on page 57, second paragraph, ends with, ""...so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

Doesn't say you have to actually enter the terrain, or you have to actually move into or through the terrain, notice it say if is was attempting to enter the terrain.

I understand what you are saying regarding the tense of "entered, left or moved through" but you are losing sight of the other part of the rule which states the vehicle "stops immediately".

Even the most miniscular movement is enough to trigger the dangerous terrain test, and if it is failed the vehicle stops. Simple.

That last line is a contradiction in the rules; the rules tell you to test at the end of movement; they then also tell you that you stop outside the terrain if you were entering it.

One of those 2 must be ignored in order to apply the other; the one that must be ignored is the "descriptor-type" stating that the vehicle would be immobilized before actually entering the terrain, as you would have to rewind the movement and said movement would then also lead to circular logic: I did not enter difficult terrain because I was immobilized attempting to enter difficult terrain but i did not have to take the test until after I have finished moving into, through or out of the difficult terrain, therefore I must not be immobilized since I did not enter the difficult terrain to necessitate the test.

You are choosing to ignore the "when" to test portion of the rules in order to follow an example that breaks the rules(or rather tests early).

I am choosing to ignore the example since it ignores the rules.

Also how do I link to an FAQ that does not have the question you are asking? The BRB FAQ is here, top pdf.

Kommissar Kel wrote: That last line is a contradiction in the rules; the rules tell you to test at the end of movement; they then also tell you that you stop outside the terrain if you were entering it.

Please quote the line that says "you test at the end of movement". It isn't there. The rule says roll a die and if you roll a '1' the vehicle halts immediately, if you roll '2' through '6' then "...the vehicle can carry on moving."
How can you carry on moving if you don't test until the end of the move?
Are you trying to say you move the full distance, then test, and if you fail you halt at that point?
Or will you move the full distance, pass the test and then "carry on moving"? Carry on moving where? You admit that you have ended your movement.
So the rules do not say to test at the end of your movement.
You test when you move into, out of or through the terrain.
This is backed up by the last part of the last sentence I quoted above.
You are trying to alter a rule based on the tense of a word when the rules clearly say the opposite.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I am choosing to ignore the example since it ignores the rules.

What example?
It doesn't say, "...for example if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

What the rule says is, "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an immobilized damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

Since there is no example to ignore, what you are doing is ignoring the rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Also how do I link to an FAQ that does not have the question you are asking? The BRB FAQ is here, top pdf.

I looked through all the old FAQs I have saved, even the ones from 4th edition, and I can find no FAQ addressing at what point during their move vehicles take difficult terrain tests.

If you can find or reference one, I'd be glad to look at it.

I have already quoted where it tells you when to take the test.

Would you kindly quote to me where it says to take the test when you are moving through the terrain, or while moving through the terrain, or when you intend to move into, out of and through the terrain?

Past tense in the entire rule(up until that last line, which is indicative of future tense) tells us that you do not take the test until your move is done; heck that extra little line in there: "one or more areas of difficult terrain" and followed by "during it's move" leaves us with only 2 options for the test:

1) after all movement from that vehicle is finished, at which point upon failure it halts immediately(useless portion of rule, it has already stopped moving) and is immobilized.

or

2) Before any moves are ever made simply because you intend to enter, move thorough, or exit one or more areas of dangerous terrain(and even if you are beginning in clear ground, you will halt immediately and become immobilized upon failure).

The rules are clear; you take 1 test, so if you have to follow the example(and yes, even though it does not begin with "for Example", that is an example, otherwise it is a clear definition of the rule and the only time you actually have to take the test; also this sentence is an example of how in our native English language the word "so" alone in this usage is the same as following it with the words "for example")you test when you are attempting to enter an area of dangerous terrain(mid-move), and if that is a series of small, maybe 1" wide areas of difficult(and thus Dangerous to vehicles) terrain, with a 1" gap between them, you would be forced to take 3 tests. 3 tests is clearly against the rules as you only test for having moved through one of more area.

back to some of your other arguments:
"How can you carry on moving if you don't test until the end of the move? "
Do you only ever move your models once/game, or do you continue moving them every turn until the vehicles are immobilized or the game ends? That is how you can continue moving if you do not test until the end of your movement.

"You are trying to alter a rule based on the tense of a word when the rules clearly say the opposite. "
No I am trying to explain that the tense of every word involved in the timing of the test is Past tense. Also, The rules are clearly written to say the exact opposite of what you claim, it is merely your understanding of them that "clearly says the opposite".

Pg 57 of the BGB
"Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left, or moved through one or more dangerous terrain during its move. A result of 2-6 on the dice means that the vehicle can carry on moving. A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

The rules imply that you roll at the end of movement, but states at the end of the paragraph that if a 1 is rolled, you place it where the terrain first begins to interact with the vehicle.

You move your tank from the center of terrain to the outside, roll a 1, put it back where it was but it is now immobilized.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:
You move your tank from the center of terrain to the outside, roll a 1, put it back where it was but it is now immobilized.
-cgmckenzie

If you put it back, it has not "halted immediately" now has it.
In fact, it has completed its move, and is now moving back, so it is moving again which is prohibited by rule.

Really fellas, I don't see where the problem is here.

You roll for every vehicle that has entered. left or moved through the terrain.

Does the rule say "complete the move, then test"?
No, it says take the test and if you pass you carry on moving.
Show me how you can carry on moving if you test when you end your move?

Listen, play it how you want, but this is a rules discussion, and the rule doesn't say to test at the end of the move.
If you're going to insist on that, quote me the exact rule that says you move the vehicle its full movement distance, then take the dangerous terrain test.
Don't just tell me you quoted the rule, cite it please.

I am in no means supporting the rolling at the end, that quote was just to show how it would work if they insist on it happening that way.

You take the test as soon as you start moving through the terrain.

-cgmckenzie

Sorry cg, thought you were advocting moving the full distance and then rolling for the test.

Time Wizard has it.

As soon as the vehicle makes contact with the terrain, you have to take the test. If you fail, it stops "immediately". If the vehicle starts its move in terrain, then that means when it tries to move if it rolls that 1 it's immediately immobilized.

Whether the vehicle counts as moving when it wasn't allowed to move any distance is a little trickier to conceptualize, but rules-wise it was moving that triggered that roll. So it must have moved, for rules purposes, even if it was never allowed to clear any distance. The parallel with infantry difficult terrain tests (where, once you've rolled you count as moving, even if you elect not to move the models any distance after seeing the roll) is clear and means the principle is consistent.

Actually since the rules use the past tense verbiage of the three words "has entered, has moved, has left" it would mean after movement is completed. If they meant for you to do it during the move then it would say "will enter, will move, will leave".

Yes, and then it goes on to say that you place it back where it was when it first contacted the terrain this turn. So a vehicle entering terrain will stop just outside of it and one starting in terrain won't move.

-cgmckenzie