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Sometimes I get the impression that the AdMech probably use mystical-sounding language to keep the masses ignorant of how technology really works. For example, in one of the first two Cain books they need to focus a holographic display (or something like that) and a techpriest fixes it by doing "the rituals of focusing." In this case I would guess that the "ritual" probably consists of turning a dial. They would probably call entering the password into a computer something like the "ritual of unlocking."

KingDeath wrote:

On the other hand we have Mechanicum where a leading tech adept pretty much states that the whole machine spirit mumbo jumbo is idiocy. It is clear that you have to oil and mantain a machine to keep it working, but the machine, by virtue of being a machine, doesn't care if the oil is sacred or if you almost choke on sacred fumes. So no, a lasgun has no machine spirit, nor will your Leman Russ tank.
Praying to it won't help, mantaining it ( even to the rather distorted and ritualistic standards of the mechanicus ) will.

I haven't read Mechanicum, but I've nearly finished Titanicus and I would say the AdMech in that are similar. They're not performing special rituals every time they want to use technology. For example, an enginseer runs an auspex off his own internal power supply and later replenishes his power from a generator, and I don't remember there being any mention of him having to placate the machines or thank them afterwards. In fact the whole depiction of the Noosphere in Titanicus shows that they quite casually use highly advanced technology all the time.

KingDeath wrote:So the ship's computer is giving error messages and damage reports and instead of saying it this way the enginseer, because he doesn't know any better, states that it "screams in agony".
No machine spirit required, just normal technology misinterpreted because of a general lack of knowledge and an all pervading dogma.

In RL I perceive bad block disk errors in the system event log on a Windows box as screams of agony.

necron far and away have the most advanced technology. its stated in the necron codex, and the apocalypse one.

Necrons > Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks for mechanical technology imo. Orks themselves can create some wonders but I'd place them lower as the machines are even more unstable than Imperial ones.

Tau technology is easily equal to Eldar technology and superior and inferior in many ways.

An absence of psi-tech doesn't equate to any kind of inferior technology, just different technology that sometimes proves superior or inferior. Lances bouncing off a monolith vs railguns putting a hole in it is one shining example. However, the Howling Banshee's Blade being more cutty with a mere thought is also a great example.

We can also look at something like Shield Drones, a drone that takes a powerful hit for another unit. This while not psi-tech, is vastly superior to hoping your wraithbone holds up against that lascannon hit.


Necrons > Eldar = Tau > IoM > Orkz

Can't argue with Necrons being top dogs, they landed on Mars for crap sake. For any ship to breach the planets defenses, let alone land on the surface is nothing short of amazing in 40K.

'Can't argue with Necrons being top dogs, they landed on Mars for crap sake. For any ship to breach the planets defenses, let alone land on the surface is nothing short of amazing in 40K. '


Doubly so with a tiny flotilla of 5 light ships, and 'at fearful cost' to destroy them


I'd argue that tau tech is slightly behind Eldar, but rapidly accelerating, whereas the eldar tech is unchanging.

Do necros advance in technology?

Given that they have been asleep for aeons, not really.

A few of the lords are still sentient, so maybe advances could be made if they can remember enough of their scientific background..

So are tau the only ones who advance tech then?

nomotog wrote:So are tau the only ones who advance tech then?

On the scale they create, yes.

Minor revamps like the Lucifer Engines the Blood Angels use or new bolter rounds are also pioneered, but the Tau are the only Codexed race to actually build new technology on the scale of constant advancement. This means things like new suits, ships, rifles, stealth gens, etc etc.

There's a tiny bit of innovation in the IOM, but very very slowly, with many cries of 'heresy!' along the way.

If we include biotech the nids are continually advancing/evolving.

Orks tech isn't a constant across the whole race (except for it being constantly unreliable), so innovations probably do occur at a local level, but not across al ork-kind at once.

The eldar are static, as are the Necrons, pretty much, though new units for both will be explained as having been in mothballs for millenia and finally unearthed for use.

The Dark Eldar innovate Their tech level is probably higher than the eldar, being tech rather than wraithbone.

The Tau are the fastest growing techbase though, from 0-60 in a few centuries flat Kind of like the jump from the 1800's to current tech levels.

I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

That is true. With multiple different gods from different races (the Eldar gods and the Chaos gods, and you *might* be able to include the Emperor, but he is not truly a god), and psychic energy, having a true spirit in a machine is not too far fetched. Plus, it would be cool that your giant Land Raider has a spirit inside of its mechanical parts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forruner_mercy wrote:

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

That is true. With multiple different gods from different races (the Eldar gods and the Chaos gods, and you *might* be able to include the Emperor, but he is not truly a god), and psychic energy, having a true spirit in a machine is not too far fetched. Plus, it would be cool that your giant Land Raider has a spirit inside of its mechanical parts.

EDIT:
Actually, the Emperor is described as a god, with a good portion of his soul being the Star Child. When he truly dies, his entire psychic entity will wipe out the Chaos gods. But that is only the information on the Star Child. Either way, he is usually described as an actual god.

Justus wrote:I don't see how people can possibly dispute the existence or the credibility of the Machine Spirit in a universe with Chaos Gods, magic, and Tyranids, among other things. Must we look any further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule?

I can't see how something that is used to show how "grimdark" and backwards the imperium of man is can be taken at face value.
And yes, you must look further than the "Power of the Machine Spirit" rule. Just because some pieces of Imperial technology are equiped with a semi autonomous bio-mechanical mechanism
does not mean that transcendend, "magical" machine spirits inhabit every piece of technology.

True, your lasgun doesn't have a machine spirit, any ritualistic chanting to keep it working is simply near religious dogma. The Land Raider, and several other larger pieces of machinery do have literal "spirits" due to a combination of automated systems and biological components which together makes a primitive AI, without the capacity to freely think.
One such example of a prevailing personality in a machine is Incardinine in The First Heretic. Despite numerous mind-wipes, it still sees itself as part of The Word Bearers Legion, which at the time, the Tech adept in charge couldn't explain.

iproxtaco wrote:True, your lasgun doesn't have a machine spirit, any ritualistic chanting to keep it working is simply near religious dogma. The Land Raider, and several other larger pieces of machinery do have literal "spirits" due to a combination of automated systems and biological components which together makes a primitive AI, without the capacity to freely think.
One such example of a prevailing personality in a machine is Incardinine in The First Heretic. Despite numerous mind-wipes, it still sees itself as part of The Word Bearers Legion, which at the time, the Tech adept in charge couldn't explain.

Spot on, machine spirits are just primative AI. The Ad mech control technology by creating an illusion of mystical bull.

Basically, KingDeath was there in the first post, it's a primitive bio-tech AI, to which the Imperiums usual religious dogma has been attributed. Thus, depsite it being a simple technological phenomenon, it is believed to be a mystical "spirit" inside a machine. There's no doubting however, that they are semi-aware of their surroundings, and can feel some form of pain or discomfort on the technological level, like losing a part or taking an impact, which explains this "screaming" that a certain tech-adept heard, or the Land Raider on Rynns world fighting off hordes of Orks on its own, betraying a sense of loyalty to its masters, or a primitive animal drive to survive.

It's AI. While it may be semi biological it's still just an advanced computer. Most admech don't understand how these things work and find it easier to view as a living thing. Screaming in agony is just displaying warning message that it's been damaged. The desire to stay alive comes from the AIs programing. An AI in a LR is going to try and prevent the vehicle taking damage- to someone who doesn't understand what an AI is it would appear that the LR is alive. There are suggestions in some books that the machine spirit can favor some people. It is possible that the machine spirit is able to learn and so after being used by one person for a long period of time would function in a way that helps their style. Having a disagreement with the machine spirit is just trying to accomplish differnt things. If you want to drive forward and the AI doesn't you will have to overcome it.

All references to the machine spirit in low level technology are just superstition. Only important technology gets AIs. Everything else is just superstition used to explain why lasguns need lubrication or why a computer can only be turned on by pushing the on button.

It's not a full AI, it's a simple AI, without the creative thought process and free-thinking decision making ability that we have. It's also not just an advanced computer, it's the biological components that make it a simple AI. Essentially, it has a semi-aware personality, the interpretation of "screaming" is just a warning, but the Machine Spirit is aware of the fact that it has pieces missing.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not a full AI, it's a simple AI, without the creative thought process and free-thinking decision making ability that we have. It's also not just an advanced computer, it's the biological components that make it a simple AI. Essentially, it has a semi-aware personality.

Is it trully biological? Since warning alarms could easily be taken as'Screams of pain'

Not fully, but the biological components allow for a rudimentary personality within the machine. Everything is tech-based, the screams are warnings, but the "spirit" inside the Ship is aware of the damage it has taken.

Harriticus wrote:Necrons > Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks for mechanical technology imo. Orks themselves can create some wonders but I'd place them lower as the machines are even more unstable than Imperial ones.

This I agree with. However the IoM lost most of thier tech after the DaoT. if you are looking that far back I would say the Iom has some fancy gadgets comparable with current eldar tech. Pity the mechanicum is so dense, they don't want to reverse engineer most things as it is considered heresy.

If the AI has human components, that might mean they have a warp presence and a soul. Maybe.

Do the tyranids understand anything about technology? Like could they pick up a gun, recognize that a tank is not just a real big animal, or know what a com link is and what they can do with it?

Do the tau have nano technology?

What sides can terraform planets?

@Nomotog: Tyranids have biomorphs which give them weapons which they can control like an arm or leg. They have a general idea of what a tank or gun is from the fact it doesnt have a bio signature, i.e. it doesnt have a heart beat or give out organic materials usually produced by an organism.

The IoM terraforms planets all the time.

Eldar at least used to be able to terraform planets, don't know if they still can. Tyranids also do, but obviously not by technological means.

@manalorynoranj: Yeah but there form of terraforming generally leaves the world lifeless... kinda the opposite of the standard practice of terraforming if you ask me

nomotog wrote:Do necros advance in technology?

Their technology is 65 million years old and is still practically magic to the rest of the galaxy. There's not so much need. Also, they've been sleeping in that time, so who knows if they'll get back on the science stick now that they're awake; the next codex will let us know.

Also, the Necron technology we've been seeing is basically their farming equipment. Their war machines haven't been seen yet.

In terms of technology this is how it works:

Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy. But their tech is not compatible with warp and they themselves do not have a freedom to invent new things or upgrade.

Eldar have 2'nd advanced technology in the galaxy, but they received all that from the Old Ones, and they like the IoM can't build some things ( liek the Webway gate ).

Tau have rail and plasma technology, but don't have warp or teleportation technology at all. And their warp drive is quite primitive.

Imperium of Man just have technology from the Dark age of Technology, but even this that they have is more advanced then Tau and Eldar tech. But, they have a ton of things for what they lack STC and when those things broke down, they are broke down for good - or at least until they found STC for that.

Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Tyranids are all organic.

Dark Eldar are using Eldar tech, but with little more warp and dark matter touch to it.

In terms of technology, except Necrons none has the advantage. In addition to all of this, only Imperium and Tau are upgrading their tech and inventing new things.

Brother Coa wrote:
Orks are just using Imperium technology.

Ork tech levels are based on what the Orks need at the time. They inherited the scientific advances of the Old Ones the same as the Eldar, but theirs is gene-encoded, rather than understood.

Brother Coa wrote:
Tyranids are all organic.

So are Space Marines, that doesn't mean they aren't technology.

Orks tech levels are extremely high. They are above the IoM in technology levels. Don't confuse appearance with how effective it is. Orks have no desire to make the technology look nice but it's more functional than imperial tech. Orks have man portable force fields and guns that fire things via the warp. The imperial has the technology but it's no so effective. There most accurate warp transportation (deep striking) is still much less accurate than a Shokk Attack gun and their force fields require huge machines to generate.

The IoM's technology level is very low. They have a lot of good equipment but they very little idea of how it works.

The Tau are slightly more advanced than the Imperium but their technology is designed from a very different perspective so it's hard to compare. Their lack of warp transport isn't due to lack of understanding. The Tau have Imperial warp drives and could duplicate them- however they know what is inside the warp and want to stay away from it.

The Tyranids are extremely advanced.They have the ability to mass produce genetically engineered troops at an amazing speed. Their technology is more efficient than most of the other factions.