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And I'm sorry, but it kind of bothers me when people talk about novels as if they are not legitimate sources of fluff.

The BL books are great sources of fluff.

Unfortunately, that's the only thing they're a source for, since every BL book is written under the auspices of a rather great degree of "artistic license" that allows the author to write what makes a great story, not necessarily what fits within the "canon" established by the table-top game rules.

If they wouldn't rewrite every piece of fluff that shows the IOM in a bad light as a great SM victory i'd be more inclined to treat them as official fluff.

Most of the time i consider them to be stories of an alternate 40k universe, because they feth up the pre-existing fluff so badly..

Ascalam wrote:If they wouldn't rewrite every piece of fluff that shows the IOM in a bad light as a great SM victory i'd be more inclined to treat them as official fluff.

Most of the time i consider them to be stories of an alternate 40k universe, because they feth up the pre-existing fluff so badly..

Remember, 40k fluff exists for one reason, to counteract itself

This is indeed true, but it can counteract itself fine without 3+ armour plating in every story as the winners

The Guard books are mostly readable. The rest are only enjoyable if you are a SM fanboy, of the ones i've chewed through. I've not read them all yet, but that does seem to be the theme...

Ascalam wrote:This is indeed true, but it can counteract itself fine without 3+ armour plating in every story as the winners

The Guard books are mostly readable. The rest are only enjoyable if you are a SM fanboy, of the ones i've chewed through. I've not read them all yet, but that does seem to be the theme...

I dunno, I liked the Space Wolf Omnibus, and Graham McNeills stuff isnt too terrible, the former is just good fun and the latter actually shows Ultramarines as mortals not gods(By the end of the second book the majority of 4th company is dead)

You don't have to be a Space Marine fanboy to appreciate them. I hate Space Marines, but I love the Horus Heresy books, quite enjoyed the Space Wolf books, hell I even thought the Ultramarines trilogy was pretty good! Plus there are plenty of better BL books without SMs, read Gaunt's Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Path of the Warrior, Titanicus, etc.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I agree with a lot you're saying actually, I just feel like even if not regarded as "official" fluff, most BL work is of sufficient quality to at least be credible reference points.

Ah, don't get me wrong, I have adopted quite a few ideas from them I deemed "fitting", and I do like a lot of them simply for how they manage to describe the setting, drawing the reader right into this dystopian future of eternal war. I just have to dismiss certain ideas from some novels that sound really out of place, and likewise I cannot insist that those I have adopted are "true", simply because they may not fit into someone elses perception. So in the end, the only "hard" canon remain the rulebooks and codices, as George Mann said.

That's not to dismiss the value of BL or FFG books. Buy them for the stories they tell, buy them for inspiration ... just don't expect them to provide a reliable source clearing up all those mysteria purposefully left vague by GW.

In the end, I just don't want some mercenary author messing up my beloved SoB.
Heard too many horrible things. Not enough that GW has a habit of writing Sisters Snuff, now it's BL completely ruining what little reputation the 2E and 3E Codices gave them. On the other hand, "Hammer & Anvil" is slated for release at the end of year, so I shouldn't rant against novels too much just because they share in GW's neglect of my favorite faction.

Lynata wrote:Also judging by your unfamiliarity with the Covenant of Blood, I'd assume you haven't read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. Pick em up when you get the chance, they're fantastic books.

Hmmm, my days as a SM fan are long gone, but these seem to be Chaos novels, yes? Might be interesting - I did enjoy "Snares & Delusions" in the Dark Imperium anthology. Though I will likely try Gaunt's Ghosts and the Calpurnia Omnibus first - heard lots of good stuff about them.

But first to finish A Song of Ice and Fire ...

They're about the Night Lords, but definitely read Gaunt's Ghosts, those are some of my favorite books, Only in Death ranks right up there with Ender's Game for me as my favorite book.

Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

They probably could, but why would they

They can already make power armour. They just have size compensation issues...

Ascalam wrote:They probably could, but why would they

They can already make power armour. They just have size compensation issues...

Well I bet they would just love to make the fire warriors into SM, and they do have some titan armor they could use on their ships.

nomotog wrote:Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

HERESY

nomotog wrote:Questions for the question throne! Here is a new one. Reverse engineering. Can the tau reverse engineer imperial tech (Geen seeds, bolters, armor composites) and do they want to? Same deal for the IoM can they reverse engineer tau tech with out being burned at the stake? Well we are at it, how about the other sides?

TAU.

- can't reverse engeneer bio-tech, thus geneseed or any other form of altering living creatures. Their split into sub-species is not their own doing. You'll have to wait if Gw ever reveals the creator of the etherals.
- are not interested in imperial tech, as they deem their culture and approach to tech superior.
- can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah
- will be annihilated for tech heresy if the mechanicum is able to overcome ordo xenos


IoM.

- the mechanicum is its own entity, so free to reverse engeneer whatever they please.
- anything considered lacking the blessing of the omnissiah will be undone, but could be reverse engeneered first to prove its level of tech-heresy.
- the mechanicum has used non-human tech and maybe knows far more than they would confirm, but still has no interested to lessen its grasp on imperial tech, thus won't tell about any source outside their own forgeworlds for tech.
- everything found by the IoM is handed to the mechanicum for analysis, be it tech or the biology of xenos. So the data is there.
- the imperium itself is based on exclusive deals, like trading licences for example, and competiton is unwelcome. To reverse engeneer tech without the blessing of the mechanicum would give any competitior an easy shot at you. Just call


Eldar.
- deem other tech as inferior
- use psi in their tech and won't be interested in "dull" and non-aestethic tech. So Tau are out because there is no psi and IoM is out in style...
- craftworlders wont dedicate a life to the path of reverse engeneering..
- commoraghers plunder and incorporate what they find, so maybe reverse engeneer and adapt to their own design


Orks.
- loot everything.
- don't engeneer at all, just recall what is inbreed.


Tyranids.
- reverse engeneer any biology and thus are the N°1 in bio re-engeneering
- adapt to threats, but don't favor technical solutions.


Demons.
- don't reverse engeneer. When your ideas become true, why should you need to disassemble and rebuild stuff from the material realm?


Did I forget anyone?

Necrons

We don't need your steeenking science. Ours is better

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why out tech is better

Mahtamori wrote:
Essentially, IoM have no or very little technology at all, anymore than a child pressing a button on a food dispenser would know about making it. A very large portion of what they use, which make no mistakes is extremely potent, they have no concious knowledge of how it works. Some portion of their "technology" may even work simply because they think it works. As such, I'd place IoM more or less on the same technology step as Tyranids. Neatly to the side of the playing field right among the other spectators.

Fixed.

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why out tech is better

So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

Tau can and have reverse engineered imperial technology. Actualy seeing it as science rather than magic means they are a lot better at handling it than the imperials are. As KingDeath said there is no magic in imperial technology - it isn't alive, the Admech just don't understand what it is.

KingDeath wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
-Tau can't reverse engeneer anything with a machine spirit since they are unbelievers in the omnissiah

And that's why our tech is better

So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?

Sadly, they don't even know what a toaster is.

KingDeath wrote:
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological ) found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated.

Seems the level of "seriousness" of that line in my post is a hidden secret....

KingDeath wrote:At least no more than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

HA. You have to admit you placate the "machine spirit", yet in "our" age of technology
....but in a dark age of sci-fantasy its unbelievable for you?

We don't have to talk to them yet, but it may become the next step of interaction with them.
In the 40k-verse, AI's existed once and had to be put in their place again. So popular belief follows that dogma.
But common knowledge of the imperial citizen and the knowledge of the tech-magi isn't the same.

4M2A wrote:Tau can and have reverse engineered imperial technology. Actualy seeing it as science rather than magic means they are a lot better at handling it than the imperials are. As KingDeath said there is no magic in imperial technology - it isn't alive, the Admech just don't understand what it is.

oh really? Examples?
Its only magic for the populace. The one who care for alien tech are used to follow logic and analysis, not magic.
The ones favoring "magic" are the dark mech, merging demons and technology.

KingDeath wrote:
So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

No, it's because you Tau fans are taking our "praying to the toaster" a little to far.
Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind.
In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", where young cadet is being accused for misusing the Titan ( after saving their ass of course ) and send to execution. But before they remove him from court the Titan appear on one of the monitors ( him machine spirit ) and told them "if you kill him I will not fight anymore". I also read numerous quotes from Titan machine spirit where he gloat about his service to the Emperor ( witch indicates some sort of obligation, even if he is just a machine ).

ANd further more, machine spirits can be found on Imperial Warships, colonies, drop-pods, Baneblades etc...

Brother Coa wrote:Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind. In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

Actually, I'm fairly sure all the praying and chanting and asking is simply based on the very same superstition that causes perfectly normal people to yell at their monitor when the computer breaks down even today - only dialed up to eleven because it's 40k.

Brother Coa wrote:The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", [...]

Keep in mind novels aren't really hard canon, though.

That said, I would not dismiss the idea that an extremely developed machine spirit (meaning one of those braines slaved to the machinery), given enough time, may develop a certain degree of sentience, as opposed to the originally intended function of simply working semi-autonomously by following a set of guidelines a la Robocop. But I would say that this is quite rare and limited to stuff like Titans (who may have less "blockers" against the machine spirit taking control in case of an emergency) etc. But "simple" power armour that doesn't even include this biomechanical component? Nope, no such hindrance preventing the Tau from taking it apart if they would just want to.

And if the Tau would ever get their hands on a Land Raider or a Titan ... well, just remove the brain? Or try drugging it - I could see that work, too.

Craftworld Eldar have all sorts of paths, and if they found any value to stilling the inner desires of the soul in reverse-engineering other races technology, they would found that path. Sadly, the CWE culture, rather than their inventiveness, is stuck in a stagnation due to the stigma of the Fall. The paths serve several purposes, but the society as a whole tend to travel the path already travelled in fear of attracting unwarranted attention of She who Hungers. It would take very little for GW to retcon the Eldar stagnation, both in terms of population and sociological/technological standstill, since at the moment the Eldar stick to the aesthetics of old in a similar way to how the Japanese loathed change and foreign influence during the middle ages. In fact, the common reason for Eldar to choose the path of the outcast is that they wish to experience and create anew.
One would think that maybe the introduction of a new craftworld to spread new influence would be sufficient. Possibly there is one which is fighting it's way free of the Eye to bring such change... Well, one could hope at least.

TrollPie wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Essentially, IoM have no or very little technology at all, anymore than a child pressing a button on a food dispenser would know about making it. A very large portion of what they use, which make no mistakes is extremely potent, they have no concious knowledge of how it works. Some portion of their "technology" may even work simply because they think it works. As such, I'd place IoM more or less on the same technology step as Tyranids. Neatly to the side of the playing field right among the other spectators.

Fixed.

*shrug* Works for me.

Lynata wrote:

And if the Tau would ever get their hands on a Land Raider or a Titan ... well, just remove the brain? Or try drugging it - I could see that work, too.

Self destruct is your freind....
But normally their hands don't matter when their bodies lie scattered on the ground after extensive chainsword treatment.

more importantly, people put too much faith in reverse engeneering.

Scenario.

- 1 computer, maybe something easy to use ( A500 )
- alien lifeform, finding it and able to create complicated devices.

So you got a thing, a heap of plastic and electronics.
-Do you know the components?
-Are you able to read the signs on it?
-Have the correct power supply handy?

Maybe the external power supply is missing?
Maybe no software was found with it ( no harddrive in such old machine. )?

All you can do is to recreate the components and hope to not blow it up when attaching the power supply.
Then, and only then youre able to identify a function, when it asks: "please insert disk"
But what is this "disk"?
There is a slot, and a mechanic to insert something. But does it mean you know what it expects?
At best youre able to measure the size of the object to be inserted.
Still no clue what it is, and no chance to "magically" guess right and create a floppy disk.

But if you can ( because your magical all knowing scanner tells you, which I consider cheating in this scenario ), how do you know what
software is and which "language" the machine understands?


People got stuck by "press any key" before and in a fictional universe alien concepts are understood?
We can't decipher everything and still ancient texts/glyphs/ etc are unreadable to us even when they were created by humans on the same planet. Without hints or help from someone of that userbase its unlikely to be able to re-engeneer anything.

I actually agree on both points - first, it would be extremely difficult to actually retrievel/salvage one such beast, and second, reverse-engineering isn't easy.

Just saying it's hypothetically possible. For the language bits, I'm sure the Tau have figured out human Gothic by now, with all those traitors joining their Greater Good. The rest is up to comparing Imperial tech with what the Tau already know, possibly proxying their own machinery. Example: electricity is electricity, regardless of how you create it. If you can't figure out how an IoM Generatorium works, just reroute power to one of your own units and go from there.

Additionally, I'm sure you can figure out the basic principle just by having the eggheads taking a look at things. Once you know which materials are used in what way, smart people will eventually end up with an idea. In case of the computer, for example: Your scientists may not be able to decipher its programming, but they will be able to replicate the construction and they will get to know how the program came to be, and then end up writing their own stuff. Plus, every persisting code can be broken by studying it in action, see WW2.

That said, what would the Tau even want with Titan-Tech? I'm not sure that the power plant would be of interest to them, or the machine spirit. The weapons, on the other hand? Or the servos moving those giant arms and legs?

Lynata wrote:I actually agree on both points - first, it would be extremely difficult to actually retrievel/salvage one such beast, and second, reverse-engineering isn't easy.

Just saying it's hypothetically possible. For the language bits, I'm sure the Tau have figured out human Gothic by now, with all those traitors joining their Greater Good. The rest is up to comparing Imperial tech with what the Tau already know, possibly proxying their own machinery. Example: electricity is electricity, regardless of how you create it. If you can't figure out how an IoM Generatorium works, just reroute power to one of your own units and go from there.

Additionally, I'm sure you can figure out the basic principle just by having the eggheads taking a look at things. Once you know which materials are used in what way, smart people will eventually end up with an idea. In case of the computer, for example: Your scientists may not be able to decipher its programming, but they will be able to replicate the construction and they will get to know how the program came to be, and then end up writing their own stuff. Plus, every persisting code can be broken by studying it in action, see WW2.

That said, what would the Tau even want with Titan-Tech? I'm not sure that the power plant would be of interest to them, or the machine spirit. The weapons, on the other hand? Or the servos moving those giant arms and legs?

I agree, Tau could adapt to some forms. But it would take them quite some time to succeed. And + they never faced Baneblade or Titan larger than Warhound ( Warhounds have simpler machine spirit unlike larger Titans ).

And WW2 was Human vs. Human conflict. Try cracking alien codes if you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Keep in mind novels aren't really hard canon, though.

Warhammer Monthly comics are canon since they were published by GW themselves.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
So Tau can't reverse engineer imperial tech because they don't dance around their toasters and pretend that they live?
Seriously, some people take the machine spirit dogma far too seriously. With the exception of the actual artificial inteligences ( even if they are part biological )
found within Landraiders, Titans and some other advanced imperial stuff there are no machine spirits which have to be placated. At least no more
than there is one within our computers, even if we all sometimes talk with them.

No, it's because you Tau fans are taking our "praying to the toaster" a little to far.
Machine spirit is not some type of simple AI, it's AI that is the closest thing to the true Human mind.
In fact, the Machine spirit can get angry and refuse to cooperate with Humans ( and that's why the Techpriest are praying to him. They are actually asking him to cool down and work with them ) witch only indicates that they have emotions ( kind off ) and that they are more advanced then simple Tau "input command" and choose the most logical course of action.

The prof for my theory can be found in graphic novel "Titan", where young cadet is being accused for misusing the Titan ( after saving their ass of course ) and send to execution. But before they remove him from court the Titan appear on one of the monitors ( him machine spirit ) and told them "if you kill him I will not fight anymore". I also read numerous quotes from Titan machine spirit where he gloat about his service to the Emperor ( witch indicates some sort of obligation, even if he is just a machine ).

ANd further more, machine spirits can be found on Imperial Warships, colonies, drop-pods, Baneblades etc...

You might wish to reread both the graphic novel and my post again. It is not the mystical "machine spirit" which resides in every piece of imperial tech which calls for Hecate's release but whatever is left of the former princeps within the titan's complex ai. That some part of a princep's conscioussness sometimes stays within the titan's a, which is interpreted as machinespirit, is not doubted. That every piece of imperial tech has a similar ai is plainly superstition.

Titans and Landraiders and some other, rare vehicles ( Ordinatus engines perhaps ) are actualy the only confirmed pieces of imperial tech which have a "machine spirit" as defined as a somewhat sentient, bio-mechanical ai. A titan's machine spirit is also usualy not described as humanlike but animallike, raw emotion and instict which has to be tempered and even dominated by the princeps
This changes nothing about the fact that the techpriest largely worship something that does not exist. A Leman Russ has no ai or machinespirit, nor has a lasgun, a fire extinguisher or a piece of flakarmour.
What a droppod, a tank and various other vehicles might have is simply software. The only droppods with a true ai are Dreadclaws, which are now mostly in the posession of the traitor legions.

So to make it short, imperial ai's ( after a fashion ) exist in some rare pieces of technology and might be interprested as machine spirits by the ignorant techpriests ( the higher magi might actually know what they are dealing with ). The mystical spirit which is claimed to exist in all pieces of technology is nothing but superstition, born out of millenia of ignorance and blind devotion.

Brother Coa wrote:Warhammer Monthly comics are canon since they were published by GW themselves.

Not so sure about that ... Daemonifuge was published by GW / Warhammer Monthly as well, and still its contents were flat-out ignored in true Codex material.

prior to Daemonifuge: only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos
Daemonifuge (1999): hundreds of Sisters fall to Chaos
3E Codex (2003): going back to "only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos"

Lynata wrote:Not so sure about that ... Daemonifuge was published by GW / Warhammer Monthly as well, and still its contents were flat-out ignored in true Codex material.

prior to Daemonifuge: only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos
Daemonifuge (1999): hundreds of Sisters fall to Chaos
3E Codex (2003): going back to "only a single Sister has ever fallen to Chaos"

That's because GW don't like Sisters.
They let them be butchered every time, and Matt Ward killed 90% of them in 5'th edition codex.
I don't see that stuff as canon....

And we also have the "Damnation Crusade" witch is also a canon and we have scene where XV88 can't kill Dreadnought from 4 shots... And then we have Draigo who is also cannon but guy is so fanfic that he is gloating in it...

Hard to decide what is cannon and what not....

Brother Coa wrote:That's because GW don't like Sisters.

I'd be inclined to agree, but in this case, sticking to the "only one Sister ever got corrupted" is actually better for them.

Brother Coa wrote:Hard to decide what is cannon and what not....

Well, we have statements from authors and GW officials. I recently linked a few here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/379701.page#3011804

Going by what George Mann said, Damnation Crusade would stand firmly in the non-canon zone.

KD is right again. There are many differnt phenomenon which can cause a "Machine Spirit". The machine spirit in a titan isn't the same as a machine spirit in a LR/LRBT/any of the imperiums other complex tech.

Most of the time there is no machine spirit, it's just superstition. Instead of a instruction guide the admech use rituals. They would see a bolter that is jamming and decide the machine spirit has been offended. A possible way to resolve this is to offer it annointed oil. In reality the bolter just needed lubrication however this knowledge has been lost- all they know is that if you follow the ritual it works. They are too restricted by their religion to try and work out what is actually happening.

In more complex technology such as tanks and large computers there is a very simple AI. This can be partialy biological (using human brains) or can be purely mechanical. The admech see AI as evil and so something helping them must be different. In combat vehicles it can appear to have the features of a living organism. It will attempt to keep itsefl functioning, remove threats to itself and crew and if it has the capacity to learn will adapt to crew. The machine spirit will appear to bet on better with crew if they function in a similar way to the AI.

Titans may begin with the same AI as other complex machines but this is changed by use. The longer a princep uses a titan the more his mind is fused to it. Eventually the princeps mind becomes part of the titan. Even without the human the titan will still have his mind. As more princeps use it the titan's mind becomes a mix of all it's users- similar to eldar pheonix lords. It's this personally which can become attached to new princeps. Unlike the rest of imperial technology Titans do actually have a spirit.