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Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Near everything about the Primarch Project makes them out to be super intelligent. They're certainly smarter than your average Chapter Master, who isn't educated beyond battlefield tactics.

I think most if not all chapter masters know something beyond just battlefield tactics...

Not really. Primarchs are naturally intelligent, super human intelligent, all of them, it's in their genetic make-up. Chapter Masters are humans with super human bodies, and aren't taught anything extra outside of battlefield tactics. Sure, hundreds of years of fighting around the universe and you're going to pick up a thing or two, but they aren't thinkers.

Funny, they never seem to come across like that in the codexes or books. In fact, with a few exceptions, they seem pretty meh, like your average banana republic warlord.

Have you read Index Astartes? Or the Horus Heresy books? It all makes them out to be super human intelligent. All of them grasped everything their mentors had to teach them within a few years.

In this case, genes are everything. Even Russ, despite being massively hypocritical, put on a show of stupidity to make his enemies, and allies, easier targets to read.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:They just like to watch Friends. Endless Re-runs of Friends... Now that is hell.

I thought Hell was Andy Gibb singing "Shadow Dancing" for eons and eons...

(Courtesy of Denis Leary)

Back on topic, I wish the fluff was better written across the board for all codices. But in the specific case of the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, I think GW should've worked more on producing their fluff, instead of trying to find the newest/latest ways of making new armies/codices every year or so.

Instead, just take the year to write fluff, because honestly, I think people would enjoy that more. Then once it's done, release it in forms of novels. Not that I have a problem with any of the writers that do their own work on fluff, but I think if GW spent more effort towards creating and expanding on the known universe of 40k history, I think the allure of it would draw just as much fans as the game itself would.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Back on topic, I wish the fluff was better written across the board for all codices. But in the specific case of the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, I think GW should've worked more on producing their fluff, instead of trying to find the newest/latest ways of making new armies/codices every year or so.

Instead, just take the year to write fluff, because honestly, I think people would enjoy that more. Then once it's done, release it in forms of novels. Not that I have a problem with any of the writers that do their own work on fluff, but I think if GW spent more effort towards creating and expanding on the known universe of 40k history, I think the allure of it would draw just as much fans as the game itself would.

Have you never heard of the Black Library?

They have dozens (hundreds?) of novels that have been written by authors (as opposed to just by game designers), most of which are really good (others arent however).

Seriously, look it up.

iproxtaco wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Near everything about the Primarch Project makes them out to be super intelligent. They're certainly smarter than your average Chapter Master, who isn't educated beyond battlefield tactics.

I think most if not all chapter masters know something beyond just battlefield tactics...

Not really. Primarchs are naturally intelligent, super human intelligent, all of them, it's in their genetic make-up. Chapter Masters are humans with super human bodies, and aren't taught anything extra outside of battlefield tactics. Sure, hundreds of years of fighting around the universe and you're going to pick up a thing or two, but they aren't thinkers.

Funny, they never seem to come across like that in the codexes or books. In fact, with a few exceptions, they seem pretty meh, like your average banana republic warlord.

Have you read Index Astartes? Or the Horus Heresy books? It all makes them out to be super human intelligent. All of them grasped everything their mentors had to teach them within a few years.

In this case, genes are everything. Even Russ, despite being massively hypocritical, put on a show of stupidity to make his enemies, and allies, easier targets to read.

Don't get your panties in a wad. Of course I have. Not all mind you, my brain can only tolerate so much horrific writing.
It doesn't make them out to be super intelligent at all. It makes them out to be petty, socially maladjusted, and power hungry. Outside of Omegon, it has not made them out to be particularly intelligent.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

The books make it so. Every Primarch is intelligent, the series makes that pretty evident, coupled with Index Astartes. They have their genetically forged intelligence marred by their up-bringing, for example, Angron. He was just another Primarch, as capable as the rest when he was forced into becoming a Gladiator, and was lobotomized to become a rage filled killer.

iproxtaco wrote:The books make it so. Every Primarch is intelligent, the series makes that pretty evident, coupled with Index Astartes. They have their genetically forged intelligence marred by their up-bringing, for example, Angron. He was just another Primarch, as capable as the rest when he was forced into becoming a Gladiator, and was lobotomized to become a rage filled killer.

Now YOU are saying the books make it so. Its merely and exclusively your opinion.
In my opinion, with few exceptions, they aren't made out to be be particularly brilliant. Some are, most aren't.

Give an example of a Primarchs lack of intellect if you please.

iproxtaco wrote:Give an example of a Primarchs lack of intellect if you please.

Angron.

Fulgrim, pretty much everything he did from waking on. Nothing gifted there.

Horus was sneaky once he decided to turn, but nothing striking as particularly brilliant. In fact the whole Istvaan business of marooning his "loyal" elements and then wasting effort attacking them once on the surface is mightily wasteful of resources and mirrors poor judgement.

Omegon, yes. Used tactics, subterfuge and "got it."

Angron. Led his Gladiator Army Spartacus style. Had his genetically forged intellect marred by a lobotomozation, like I explained.

Fulgrim enacted the brilliant campaign on Laeran, and was known to be a fantastic artist. He sculpted busts of all his Captains, they were perfect, but lacked the flair of an artist that does it for his own pleasure. Too perfect, lacked the faults which make the piece come alive.

Horus was brilliant diplomat and a schemer, the best of The Primarchs, I hope you never missed the latter part when reading the HH. The event on Istvaan was not evidence of poor judgement, when you read Galaxy in Flames, did you read the part where he used it as a chance to bloody his new force and to cement their conviction? Or did you miss the part where the inital plan was to Virus bomb them and not to commit forces to the ground? His plan was undone due to an inquisitive Astartes called Saul Tarvitz. Entirely out of his ability to control.

Angron. Led his Gladiator Army Spartacus style. Had his genetically forged intellect marred by a lobotomozation, like I explained.
***You can be angry and still be brilliant. He wasn't.

Fulgrim enacted the brilliant campaign on Laeran, and was known to be a fantastic artist. He sculpted busts of all his Captains, they were perfect, but lacked the flair of an artist that does it for his own pleasure. It was in his genes.
***What brilliant campaign? Drop and go dakka dakka. Your average ork can figure that one out. He sculpted 1) doesn't make him smart. 2) just because his troops say they're brilliant doesn't make it so. Everyone says Fearless Leader invented the internet but doesn't make it so (NORTH KOREA IS BEST KOREA).

Horus was brilliant diplomat and a schemer, the best of The Primarchs, I hope you never missed the latter part when reading the HH. The event on Istvaan was not evidence of poor judgement, when you read Galaxy in Flames, did you read the part where he used it as a chance to bloody his new force and to cement their conviction?
***
-Briliant diplomat? You not been around proper diplomats then.
-Bloody his new force? You mean the guys that had been on nonstop campaign for 200 years? Yes, when I think team building exercise I think lose half my guys fighting half my other guys...


Or did you miss the part where the inital plan was to Virus bomb them and not to commit forces to the ground? His plan was undone due to an inquisitive Astartes called Saul Tarvitz. Entirely out of his ability to control.
***Part of being a good officer is adapting to changing conditions. He adapted... poorly.

Its all a matter of opinion. You think they come off as smart. I think they come off as gifted, petulant children. I'm not seeing Einsteins here.

iproxtaco wrote:Have you read Index Astartes? Or the Horus Heresy books? It all makes them out to be super human intelligent. All of them grasped everything their mentors had to teach them within a few years.

Lorgar is constantly manipulated and led around by the nose by a human and a Space Marine.
Fulgrim has no common sense and is incredibly insecure.
The Lion has the charisma and empathy of a brick.
Russ is... Russ.

I do think Alpharius/Omegon, Magnus and Guilliman were actually depicted as pretty intelligent. Of course, Magnus had hubris out the ass and lied to himself about what he found in the Warp, Guilliman was stodgy and inflexible in his opinions.

Frazzled wrote: I think they come off as gifted, petulant children.

This is as good a way to describe them as any.

The army he lead Spartacus style was outnumbered and poorly equipped. He still managed to lead them to victories until surrounded by seven armies.

The campaign that was completed in a month with less casualties when Imperial planners said it would take years and a lot more resources. You missed the point. He sculpted a literally perfect representation, there were no faults, but he didn't do it for his own pleasure, it was a natural skill due to his genes.

Yes, Horus was a brilliant Diplomat, maneuvering all his brothers and Imperial Officials fantastically, the way he dealt with meetings using the Mournival is evidence enough.
He used the Istvaan event to cement his alliances. It was a team building exercise, and he didn't lose half his forces.

He adapted well enough. Using it to cement the conviction of his allies and his men. It was a show of strength, bombing the planet would have been a cop-out, his own words.

Yes, extremely gifted, but petulant, all of them.

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Have you read Index Astartes? Or the Horus Heresy books? It all makes them out to be super human intelligent. All of them grasped everything their mentors had to teach them within a few years.

Lorgar is constantly manipulated and led around by the nose by a human and a Space Marine.
Fulgrim has no common sense and is incredibly insecure.
The Lion has the charisma and empathy of a brick.
Russ is... Russ.

I do think Alpharius/Omegon, Magnus and Guilliman were actually depicted as pretty intelligent. Of course, Magnus had hubris out the ass and lied to himself about what he found in the Warp, Guilliman was stodgy and inflexible in his opinions.

Frazzled wrote: I think they come off as gifted, petulant children.

This is as good a way to describe them as any.

I'd add in Marlon Brando, er Nighthaunter as being portrayed intelligently if, off the chart on the nutty side. Admittedly this is based off codex fluff and Lord of Night vs. HH books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:The army he lead Spartacus style was outnumbered and poorly equipped. He still managed to lead them to victories until surrounded by seven armies.

The campaign that was completed in a month with less casualties when Imperial planners said it would take years and a lot more resources. You missed the point. He sculpted a literally perfect representation, there were no faults, but he didn't do it for his own pleasure, it was a natural skill due to his genes.

Yes, Horus was a brilliant Diplomat, maneuvering all his brothers and Imperial Officials fantastically, the way he dealt with meetings using the Mournival is evidence enough.
He used the Istvaan event to cement his alliances. It was a team building exercise, and he didn't lose half his forces.

He adapted well enough. Using it to cement the conviction of his allies and his men. It was a show of strength, bombing the planet would have been a cop-out, his own words.

Yes, extremely gifted, but petulant, all of them.

Thats your opinion. Thats fine. I don't see it that way.

Juniperius wrote:And Leman Russ is a thinker?
Drops on Prospero without thinking and goes stupid? (what happened to prospero anyway?)
some are very intelligent but some......
genes aren't everything.

The World eaters shiowed up and poked around the ruins for a bit.

There is a simple reason that they are not out beating up SM's, GW has not made the models or Codex Primarchs Yet!

moonshine wrote:The World eaters shiowed up and poked around the ruins for a bit.

And a TS survivor founded the Blood Ravens! Allegedly.

Yeah supposedly, it is hinted to at the end but didn't that guy die ?

He didn't in that particular book, in fact he saw a vision and was filled with "utter conviction that he would survive" or some such. Knowledge is power!

Oh, I thought Kharn killed him, who was fighting Kharn ?

Kharn was beating up on the lieutenant or whatever of that particular group. The one I'm talking about, his second in command, was never caught because he was of the Corvidae cult and saw it coming.

Oh I see, thanks for that. I was a bit confused because the commanders story alternates betwean him landing on Prospero and being interogated by Kharn, and how the commander ran from the World eaters but I don't remember there being anything about any of the other Thousand sons escaping.

Frazzled wrote:*** Drop and go dakka dakka. Your average ork can figure that one out.

Ork strategy is best strategy.

As for the topic of the thread, well, I honestly think they would make a difference. Angron alone ravaged dozens of star systems under Imperial rule for 2 centuries, IIRC it took 7 centuries to reclaim 90% of their lost territory. Angron is but one Daemon Primarch, if they all were more active in fubarring the Imperium, I think they would definitely be a considerable threat, since even before becoming Daemons, they were basically Bloodthirsters physically.

And that is why they have mostly been lazy. Status Quo, GW doesn't want to with it.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Have you never heard of the Black Library?

They have dozens (hundreds?) of novels that have been written by authors (as opposed to just by game designers), most of which are really good (others arent however).

Seriously, look it up.

Yes, I have heard of the Black Library. In fact, I happen to own a few of the books, although I've only read one so far (Battle for the Abyss, specifically). And in addition to the Black Library, I've read most of Graham McNeill's work on the Space Marine Omnibus and The Killing Ground (currently on Chapter 2 of Courage and Honor, at the moment). And while I do enjoy the stories I've read, I suppose I'm not very sure as to who gets the "privilege", for lack of a better word, to write the fluff to be what it is.

Do these writers actually get GW backing them to write the stories? Forgive me if the question sounds ignorant, but I assure you I only mean to ask this as an open and honest question. If they do, then I guess that answers my question earlier.

As for the Black Library, I plan to continue reading it (hopefully in it's right order) after I'm done with McNeill's Space Marine saga.

iproxtaco wrote:They're Daemon Princes, they stay in the Warp because they prefer it, like most other Daemon Princes. Most are either meditating, like Magnus and Lorgar, or just bitter, like Perturabo, or are just happy doing what they're doing, like Mortarion who now rules his own plague planet which is a replica of Barbarus, or Fulgrim, who is enjoying himself in Slannesh's company.

I don't think Fulgrim has enjoyed anything in a very, very long time. Considering he is merely a passenger in his own 'body'.

Yes, but why arent the daemon primarchs out there kicking butt and chewing bubblegum?

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Have you never heard of the Black Library?

They have dozens (hundreds?) of novels that have been written by authors (as opposed to just by game designers), most of which are really good (others arent however).

Seriously, look it up.

Yes, I have heard of the Black Library. In fact, I happen to own a few of the books, although I've only read one so far (Battle for the Abyss, specifically). And in addition to the Black Library, I've read most of Graham McNeill's work on the Space Marine Omnibus and The Killing Ground (currently on Chapter 2 of Courage and Honor, at the moment). And while I do enjoy the stories I've read, I suppose I'm not very sure as to who gets the "privilege", for lack of a better word, to write the fluff to be what it is.

Do these writers actually get GW backing them to write the stories? Forgive me if the question sounds ignorant, but I assure you I only mean to ask this as an open and honest question. If they do, then I guess that answers my question earlier.

As for the Black Library, I plan to continue reading it (hopefully in it's right order) after I'm done with McNeill's Space Marine saga.

FYI, Battle for the Abyss is one of the Horus Heresy Novels...and it isnt the first one unfortunately.
All books written about GW products (published by GW of cors) are part of the BL.
(apologies if you know this already, for some reason i felt the need to re-iterate...)

Yes, the writers are backed by GW, otherwise of course, they wouldnt be published. They are also 'encouraged' to know/learn about/research a little bit about the background of what they are writing about (however, the success of this varies, read: Dan Abnett compared to C. S. Goto).
Sometimes the writers think up something and approach GW, sometimes vice-versa. (for example, when Dan Abnett wrote the Eisenhorn+Ravenor novels, he approached GW)

There is a lot of time devoted to writing the novels and background (unfortunately no-one seems to have proof-read Goto's gak), for the express reason that books are expensive (read:profit margin ) and people want to read them. Theres books ive looked for for years and cant find at a reasonable price due to availability and selling power, for example.


Anyways, hope thats in any way helpful, its a bit late here so im not sure this is coming out right.... sorry.

SickSix wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They're Daemon Princes, they stay in the Warp because they prefer it, like most other Daemon Princes. Most are either meditating, like Magnus and Lorgar, or just bitter, like Perturabo, or are just happy doing what they're doing, like Mortarion who now rules his own plague planet which is a replica of Barbarus, or Fulgrim, who is enjoying himself in Slannesh's company.

I don't think Fulgrim has enjoyed anything in a very, very long time. Considering he is merely a passenger in his own 'body'.

When I say Fulgrim, I mean the body that was Fulgrims. Since the Daemon has no name, it's mush easier this way.

I though that was answered. They stay in the Warp because they are Daemons and they prefer it where they are.

I always thought that the whole idea was that the Primarch project was actually a failure and that the so called 'perfect' Primarchs always looked and felt out of place in the universe because they should not have existed. This is because it they were an attempt at perfection and true perfection (as is pretty much shown in the Fulgrim novel) is unobtainable.

Since they were all generals, no, not really. The design was flawless to begin with, as in the actual design of the Primarch, problems arose when the Chaos Gods took them and placed them on random planets, where each of them developed a unique personality. Further problems arose because The Emperor was a jackass, and failed half of them in some form. The only failure, the only Primarch not to fulfill is purpose as a soldier is Lorgar, but strength and tactical aptitude aren't everything.

Yeah the emp was a complete tool but can deny that a while after the Horus Heresy, they all turned into demons or went a bit crazy.
I always see it as the Primarchs who were elevated to princes survived longer because there no longer forced to exist as a Primarch.
the only 2 exceptions are Dorn and Rob, who were just defeate in combat rather than ran to the eye of terror due to craziness.
Although i cant remember what happened to the white scars guy, was it something to do with the webway and dark eldar?