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@time wizard: Are you sure? It is supposed to be able to fire "even if it moves," and ramming is a type of movement. Also, the INAT FAQ says that a Monolith can fire the particle whip on the same turn it deep strikes. I'm not sure why the term "weapon" has any relevance; could you point me to the place that it comes up?

This was debated to death in another thread about whether the Monolith could fire the particle whip if it deep strikes.
My position, along with my friend who plays Necrons was that it could not.
It also could not fire the particle whip if it rams.

Here are the relevant points.
Necron codex page 21 under Power Matrix;
"The Monolith may use its power matix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:"

Now one way is to teleport Necrons or to bring in a unit of Necron warriors held in reserve. No problem there.
The other way is to discharge it as a particle whip.
So what is a Particle Whip?
Necron Summary page 22 lists the Particle whip under weapons with a range, strength, AP and a type of Ordnance 1 / Blast.
Necron Codex page 14 last sentence under Particle Whip, "The particle whip is an Ordnance weapon."
Latest Necron FAQ:
Q. Can the Monolith fire its particle whip and
gauss flux projectors in the same turn?
A. No, the Monolith cannot fire the particle whip
(as it is an ordnance weapon) and gauss flux
projectors in the same turn. The particle whip
uses the large blast marker and its range and line
of sight are measured from any of the Monolith’s
weapons.

Clearly, the particle whip is a weapon, nothing more and nothing less.
Firing it is one of 2 possible uses for the power matrix.

The Necron Codex gives the Monolith permission to use the power matrix once per turn, but nothing in the Necron Cdex or the FAQ gives the Monolith permission to shoot if the rules for vehicles do not allow it.

So if a vehicle rams, including a Monolith, it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, like any other vehicle in the game.

Bottom line is that using the power matrix and firing a weapon are 2 separate and mutually exclusive things, and permission to do one does not automatically give permission to do the other.

@time wizard: Even though the monolith rules specifically state that it (the Power Matrix) cannot be destroyed by a "weapon destroyed" result and that it can be used even if the Monolith "moves, or is shaken or stunned?"

Kitzz wrote:@time wizard: Are you sure? It is supposed to be able to fire "even if it moves," and ramming is a type of movement. Also, the INAT FAQ says that a Monolith can fire the particle whip on the same turn it deep strikes. I'm not sure why the term "weapon" has any relevance; could you point me to the place that it comes up?

Being able to fire 'even if it moves' doesn't over-ride any specific restriction that may arise.

Firing when Deep Striking is a slightly different issue. With Deep Striking there is no specific prohibition on shooting... vehicles are only restricted by the speed at which they have moved. So the INAT ruled in favour of the Monolith still being able to shoot because the Monolith's own rules don't care about the speed at which it moved... it can fire if it moves. (This is a contentious area though, so I wouldn't recommend taking the INAT as gospel on this unless you're playing somewhere that actually has the INAT in use)

Ramming is different in that the prohibition on shooting isn't tied to speed... the vehicle is simply prohibited from shooting. So the Monolith's rules allow it to shoot even when it moves, but the rules for the specific action being performed (Ramming) prohibit shooting.

Kitzz wrote:@time wizard: Even though the monolith rules specifically state that it (the Power Matrix) cannot be destroyed by a "weapon destroyed" result and that it can be used even if the Monolith "moves, or is shaken or stunned?"

Again, bear in mind that the power matrix rule does not say the particle whip may fire.

It says as I quoted, that the power matrix may be used even if the Monolith moves.

One way it may be used is to teleport Necrons.
But even in that, it must follow the rules for passengers diesmbarking from a transport vehicle.
From the Necron FAQ:
Q. Can a Necron unit that teleports through a
Monolith’s portal move after emerging?
A. Only if the Monolith (and the teleporting unit)
hasn’t already moved that Movement phase. If the
unit has already moved before being teleported,
it may only be deployed within 2" of the portal; if
it hasn’t already moved, it may deploy out 2" and
then move normally.

So we here have a precedent that the power matrix can be used but in one instance, teleporting Necrons, it must still follow the rules in the main rulebook.

The other way the power matrix can be used is to discharge (fire) the particle whip, an ordnance weapon.
Nowhere in the Necron Codex or any Necron FAQ do we find that "The Monolith may fire the particle whip even if it moves."

Firing the particle whip must still follow the rules for vehicles firing weapons in the main rulebook. All of them.

I am aware of the INAT FAQ, but even this forum acknowledges that to be a local houserule, and in this instance, the rules do not support that (the INAT FAQ) interpretation.

I'm not looking to re-open the entire "monolith firing" debate here, but this is how the rules read.

There is a substantial and specific difference between allowing a vehicle to "use" something and allowing it to "fire" something.

If the Monolith moves up to combat speed, it may use the power matrix as either a teleporter or a weapon.
But if it moves at cruising speed or rams, it may not fire any weapon, so one of those options is no longer available.
However, it may still teleport Necrons, subject to the restrictions in the FAQ.

@insaniak: I can use the same logic as it applies to the monolith. The Power Matrix rule has no reference to speed either. And since ramming is definitely a type of movement, I don't think that your argument works. As for the INAT not being gospel, I agree. But they resolved a similar issue, and the only difference in actual RAW between the two issues is that the word "firing" is used instead of the word "shooting."

@time wizard: The FAQ deals with the disembarking of passengers, but does not say anything about shooting. Also, as Codex > BRB, if I "use" the Matrix to "discharge" the particle whip, that's also not explicitly "firing" it. An equally valid interpretation of that FAQ is "of course the monolith can't fire both the Particle Whip and the Flux Arc in the same shooting phase, because the monolith says 'discharge.' Because 'discharge' isn't a term in the rules, we'll define the action in the terms of the rulebook by saying 'The particle whip uses the large blast marker and its range and line of sight are measured from any of the Monolith’s weapons.'"

EDIT: Disputed time wizard's argument

Kitzz wrote:@insaniak: I can use the same logic as it applies to the monolith. The Power Matrix rule has no reference to speed either. And since ramming is definitely a type of movement, I don't think that your argument works.

Speed is not the issue. That's the whole point.


The Power Matrix is allowed to fire, even if the Monolith moves. Which means that the Monolith's movement has no effect on its ability to use the Power Matrix.

Ramming is a type of movement, yes. But it's not the movement that prohibits shooting. It's the fact that the Ramming rules specifically prohibit shooting.

So the Monolith can use the Power Matrix when it moves, but can not shoot if it Rams. The more specific rule wins, but in this case it's not even down to the specificity of the rule, because the Ramming shooting prohibition doesn't care about movement.


This is in the same league as trying to assault with Fleet models that Ran after Deep Striking. A rule that allows you to assault even if you Run over-rides the specific prohibition on assaulting after Running. It doesn't over-ride any other prohibition on assaulting.

Likewise, the Monolith's rule allows it to use the Particle Whip after moving. That doesn't over-ride any other prohibition on shooting.

@insaniak: From the BRB, "Ramming is a rather desperate manoeuvre and means that the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken."

The italics are for emphasis. "This," agreed, is an obscure pronoun reference. I believe the difference in our arguments is that you believe that "This" refers to the "concentrate" whereas I believe it refers to the "moving." As "concentrate" is rather undefined in terms of game rules (and even so, I doubt a mindless machine can concentrate in terms of RaI), I personally have to go with the defined game term. You're free to disagree, of course, but I don't see another way out of the impasse.

I have no idea where you think you're going with analysing the meaning of 'this', frankly.

The Monolith can use the Particle Whip when moving.
However, Ramming is a specific type of movement. As always, a rule that applies to a specific action takes precedence over a more general rule.

Ramming is more specific than moving.
So 'no shooting while Ramming' trumps 'may shoot while moving'.

@insaniak: The Fearless USR doesn't do anything by that logic. Each Morale and Pinning test happens for a specific reason elsewhere in the rules. Therefore, even though fearless units normally ignore such tests, because nearly all such tests are delineated separately within the rules they are more specific, the Fearless USR does not apply to them as it is a general case and they are all specific. Note also that they don't specifically say "unless the model(s) are Fearless" as part of their description, either.

I tihnk you might need to have another look at the Fearless rule. It's a completely different interaction.

How so?

[quote=Kitzz@time wizard: The FAQ deals with the disembarking of passengers, but does not say anything about shooting. Also, as Codex > BRB, if I "use" the Matrix to "discharge" the particle whip, that's also not explicitly "firing" it. An equally valid interpretation of that FAQ is "of course the monolith can't fire both the Particle Whip and the Flux Arc in the same shooting phase, because the monolith says 'discharge.' Because 'discharge' isn't a term in the rules, we'll define the action in the terms of the rulebook by saying 'The particle whip uses the large blast marker and its range and line of sight are measured from any of the Monolith’s weapons.'"

EDIT: Disputed time wizard's argument

@time wizard: If you want to argue RaI, I'm happy to do so, but I was looking for a more conclusive answer than, "they could have said so but didn't." They could have written an amendment about any of the several hundred issues in the INAT FAQ that are still unresolved, but they didn't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to argue specific vs. general, see my argument as it pertains to the Fearless USR.

Not like ramming 6" is that useful anyway. I am, however, inclined to agree with time wizard and insaniak. The way I see it is that by ramming a vehicle you are combining your movement and your "action" all in one phase. But whether it's movement or not or however you want to interpret it, I think it's pretty clear when they say "you do this, you can't do that". And nothing in the monolith rules says that it can fire the whip when it rams, only when it moves, is shaken or stunned. That's it.

I'm actually surprised though that the power of the machine spirit argument hasn't come up yet, but I presume that ramming is akin to popping smoke.

Kitzz wrote:How so?

Fearless doesn't let you ignore Morale tests. It lets you automatically pass them. So a specific rule doesn't need to specify that you can use the Fearless ability, since those specific rules never state a set way of taking the test. They just tell you to take a Morale test. So there is never a conflict.

The Ramming vs Shooting issue is completely different. While the Monolith can normally shoot while moving, the rules for one specific type of movement say that you can't shoot while performing that action. There are a bunch of ways you can look at that:

- Movement in general allows shooting, Ramming (specific type of movement) does not: more specific rule wins.
- Allowed to shoot regardless of movement speed, Ramming prohibition not keyed to speed, just a blanket 'may not shoot': specific prohibition wins.
- One rule allows an action (may shoot when moving), one rule prohibits the same thing (may not shoot while Ramming): take the path that breaks no rule.

...all of which lead to No Shooting While Ramming Land.

The Power Matrix says you can shoot if you move. Fearless says you automatically pass Morale/Pinning tests.

Your argument was that ramming is a specific way of moving. My argument is that taking morale tests from shooting, losing an assault, tank shock, taking wounds from Pinning weapons, and some special abilities are all specific reasons for taking Morale/Pinning tests.

I'll use your examples to illustrate:
- Fearless in general allows you to automatically pass morale/shooting tests, taking 25% casualties from shooting says that the unit "must pass a Morale check": the more specific rule wins.
- Fearless allows for passing any Morale or Pinning checks, Tank Shock not keyed to passing tests automatically, just a blanket "must take a Morale check": specific test wins.
- One rule allows an action (passing a Pinning test), one rule prohibits the same thing (must immediately take a pinning test when receiving wounds from a Pinning weapon): take the path that breaks no rule.

...all of which lead to Fearless USR Being Useless Land.

Kitzz wrote:- Fearless in general allows you to automatically pass morale/shooting tests, taking 25% casualties from shooting says that the unit "must pass a Morale check": the more specific rule wins.

Where are you seeing a conflict between those two rules?

The morale rules tell you that you must pass a morale test. Fearless says 'You pass'... which satisfies the morale rule. There is no conflict there.

- Fearless allows for passing any Morale or Pinning checks, Tank Shock not keyed to passing tests automatically, just a blanket "must take a Morale check": specific test wins.

Again, no conflict. Tank shock says that they have to take the test. Fearless says that they automatically pass it. There is no conflict here.

- One rule allows an action (passing a Pinning test), one rule prohibits the same thing (must immediately take a pinning test when receiving wounds from a Pinning weapon): take the path that breaks no rule.

How does something forcing you to take a test prohibit you from passing it?

By that logic, nobody could ever pass a test of any kind.

Excuse me for not inserting the "automatically;" it was quite obviously implied. I agree that there is no conflict, but you are the one who has been saying that there is. Automatically passing the test is not taking the test. That's the difference.

Kitzz wrote:Excuse me for not inserting the "automatically;" it was quite obviously implied. I agree that there is no conflict, but you are the one who has been saying that there is.

Er... no. You were the one who brought up the whole Fearless thing.

Automatically passing the test is not taking the test.

Of course it's not. Taking the test is taking the test. Automatically passing is something that happens when you take the test.

This is obviously going to go on forever, so I'd rather not distract the general purpose of this thread. If anyone wants to talk about this issue further, they can pm me or what have you. I have more questions.

Ninth: The Monolith can teleport squads of Necrons as if they were disembarking. Unfortunately, it has only one access point, and larger squads can't all fit within the given 2" for disembarking. RAW these extra models seem to be destroyed, even though there is no damage done to the monolith. Further, if the 2" disembark rule does indeed apply in this case, is a model whose base is only partially within the 2" removed?

1) See measuring to units. You measure to the nearest part of the base, if that is within 2" the model is considered to be within 2"

2) They must disembark, so you could argue they emergency disembark

Emergency disembarkation says that if the disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark.

....as in, if you cannot disembark from anywhere on the hull, then the disembark is impossible. yOu have only described the access point not having enough space.

Ah, I see. Thank you. It's still odd that the unit won't be able to move, shoot, or assault afterward, however. I'm satisfied with the answer, though, so onto the next question:

Tenth, which Monolith facing is “the front” for the purposes of tank shocking?

Any. The armour is the same all round

Technically it is the facing with the portal on it, i guess

Kitzz wrote:Ah, I see. Thank you. It's still odd that the unit won't be able to move, shoot, or assault afterward, however. I'm satisfied with the answer, though, so onto the next question:

Its not odd - theyve just phased out through their vehicles hull. THats likely to leave them a little confused!

Eleventh, the Deceiver can use his Deceive power in the shooting phase, but can only use his Dread power in the Necron Assault phase. Does this mean that he can use Deceive in the enemy shooting phase?

Not unless he has something specifically allowing him to, no

Can you explain that? Why wouldn't the entry as it currently exists be treated as something specifically allowing him to do so?