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So I'm back. Again. And stuff.

Anyway, as per the usual I have Necron questions. Some are classics that I can't for the life of me understand why they haven't been addressed yet, but some are new and fascinating. I'm interested in seeing what you guys think. As for the questions themselves, I have a question about them. I think some of these might engender several pages of discussion apiece, and to throw them all together in one thread would diminish some of the less distracting (but imho equally valid) questions. I'm asking the mods' permission to post each of these issues separately. I've only posted the first question below. If I am allowed to make multiple threads, I will post the others each in their own respective thread. If I am not allowed to make multiple threads, I will post the questions one by one, each after I've deemed the conversation has reached a consensus or conclusion as it relates to the current question. Without further ado,

First (actually several related questions, and these situations have come up repeatedly in games) if a squad of Necrons is further than 6" from another Necron unit of the same type, but still within 12" of a Tomb Spyder, its members can roll WBB and are added to another unit on the battlefield of the same type.

A) If there are multiple units that are eligible to receive the survivors of the squad in question, can the Necron player choose which unit they are attached to?

B) If there are multiple units that are eligible to receive the survivors of the squad in question, can the Necron player choose to have some of the members join one of the eligible units and some join another?

C) Are the models that failed a WBB roll in this kind of situation eligible for re-roll if their new unit is sent through a monolith portal?

Thanks, in advance, to everyone.

A) Yes, as usual. If there were 3 units within 6" then you would pick which one it joins
B) Yes, as before. WBB is per model, aftrer all
B) No. You dont join a unit until after you PASS a WBB. Meaning thast only the original unit which had models awaiting WBB can port troops through. You know this because the rules for WBB only assign unit ownership on success, meaning they must belong to the original unit before that point (as nothing says they dont belong to anyone) and because of the mono rules.

I have re-read my codex rules, and, as usual, have come away with slightly better understanding. I agree with Noseferatu's reasoning about issue C, but realized that both A and B are answered within the codex, though this is different than what Nosferatu had said. Repaired necrons must be placed in coherency with the nearest unit of the same type, so you cannot actually choose which unit RAW. I think it would make sense that you could choose which unit if two were equidistant, however. I think that these first issues have been answered to my satisfaction, but are still somewhat unclear in some tournament settings and should be clarified by either GW or the INAT FAQ.

I didn't expect that to be so simple

EDIT: I suppose I should toss question number two on here if it's this close to the start of the thread.

Second, Necron units often can get new members, sometimes even to the point where the squad has more members than it started with. In some cases a unit can lose several of its members, but a lucky roll can return them all to the fight. In such a situation, if the unit is not involved in a combat, are they placed in coherency simultaneously or one by one? For example, if 20 downed Necron Warriors are coming back to a unit that has only one Necron Warrior left standing, are they simultaneously placed within 2" of that one model, or are they placed one by one, each in coherency with a member that has successfully resurrected? Keep in mind that 20 Warriors do not fit in coherency with a single Warrior (so what happens to the ones that don't fit in coherency if the resurrection is simultaneous?) and that a unit can stretch across a significant distance if it receives enough new models if those models are placed one by one (2" + a warrior base + 2" + a warrior base, etc. etc.)

Kitzz wrote:
Second, Necron units often can get new members, sometimes even to the point where the squad has more members than it started with. In some cases a unit can lose several of its members, but a lucky roll can return them all to the fight. In such a situation, if the unit is not involved in a combat, are they placed in coherency simultaneously or one by one? For example, if 20 downed Necron Warriors are coming back to a unit that has only one Necron Warrior left standing, are they simultaneously placed within 2" of that one model, or are they placed one by one, each in coherency with a member that has successfully resurrected? Keep in mind that 20 Warriors do not fit in coherency with a single Warrior (so what happens to the ones that don't fit in coherency if the resurrection is simultaneous?) and that a unit can stretch across a significant distance if it receives enough new models if those models are placed one by one (2" + a warrior base + 2" + a warrior base, etc. etc.)

Here again the answer is in the codex.

You roll a D6 for each Necron eligible for WBB. Doesn't say to roll all in one go, so they can be rolled for 1 at a time. This is the way myself and my Necron opponent do it.

The repaired Necron is placed in coherency witht he nearest Necron unit.

Once joined to the unit, the repaired Necron moves and fights with it for the rest of the game.

So it is joined once it is placed in coherency. From that point on it is part of the unit.

The next repaired Necron can then be placed in coherency with that model, and so on.

Kitzz wrote:... As for the questions themselves, I have a question about them. I think some of these might engender several pages of discussion apiece, and to throw them all together in one thread would diminish some of the less distracting (but imho equally valid) questions. I'm asking the mods' permission to post each of these issues separately.

It seems like your initial questions have been resolved, but for future reference, posting unrelated questions each in their own threads is fine, although it helps readers if you put a bit of effort into thread titles in that case. 16 threads all entitled 'Another Necron question' is going to annoy people.

If the questions all have a common theme (like all being about WBB, for example) they're better off in a single thread.

@time wizard: Could you quote the section of the codex where it says they are resolved one by one rather than simultaneously? I can't find it. It says to roll a d6 for every Necron capable of self-repair, which implies all WBB rolls are simultaneous, but doesn't state it explicitly. Just because the rules don't say something doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. I would favor your interpretation, as the shenanigan potential in favor of the Necron army is enormous, but I can't find a solid answer within the Codex (at least right now).

EDIT: I am revising my comment to time wizard. Since the WBB rule is written with all singular nouns except for the passage I mentioned, and because shenanigans are fun, I believe his interpretation is correct.

And as that question seems well-covered, I shall move to the next one.

Third, a Tomb Spyder that makes a Scarab Swarm suffers a wound if it rolls a one for its Artificer rule. Can the Spyder take its 3+ save against the wound, as is the case for a "Gets Hot!" roll from a plasma weapon?

It doesn't specifically say to roll one at a time, but if Warrior 1 (W1) is closer to unit A and W2 is closer to unit B and you roll both of them at the same time and one makes it and one doesn't, how do we know which one made it? The one joining unit A or the one joining unit B? What if unit B is one model below half and falling back? I'm supposed to let you roll them together and if one of them makes it, you get to CHOOSE which one made it? I don't think so.

A. Only one unit is going to be the closest to that particular model, so no, you don't get to choose.
B. Same answer, only one unit is going to be the closest to that particular model.
C. No.

You can take an armour save against it, unless it says it takes a wound with no "saves" or "armour saves" allowed

@nosferatu: Well, if we're agreed on that, I think we should move on.

Fourth, a Tomb Spyder makes Scarab Swarms at the beginning of the Assault Phase. When a swarm is created, is there a specific location it has to be placed (does it have to be in base-to-base contact or can it be within 2" coherency)? The issue here is that a swarm can be placed within 2" coherency via RAW, effectively extending the assault range of a Tomb Spyder unit by more than 3.5"

Kitzz wrote:Fourth, a Tomb Spyder makes Scarab Swarms at the beginning of the Assault Phase. When a swarm is created, is there a specific location it has to be placed (does it have to be in base-to-base contact or can it be within 2" coherency)? The issue here is that a swarm can be placed within 2" coherency via RAW, effectively extending the assault range of a Tomb Spyder unit by more than 3.5"

The Necron codex says the swarm is placed in contact with the spyder.
The swarms that are produced form a unit with the spyder and must stay in coherency with it for the rest of the game.

So the swarm that is produced can extend the range of the spyder by the base of the swarm, but you can't place the swarm just under 2" from the spyder when it is created.

@ time wizard: I, again, agree on this.

I should remind everyone reading that every single one of these questions has come up in a game at some point. These are things that normal people found confusing. This last one was confusing because...

...Fifth: If a Tomb Spyder is not in close combat, but does not have enough room adjacent to its base to place a Scarab Swarm, and uses the Artificer ability, what happens?

I would say that if you're dumb enough to do this the Scarab base is lost. If it's a case of popping it hoping to have room to place it it's a bit of a gamble.

You aren't required to pop scarabs, after all, and any model that needs to be placed but has no room to be places is considered destroyed, i think?

Kitzz - except that question was answered by directly reading the Artificer entry. It is not possible to be confused by "in contact with"

If you cannot place the model, you cannot place the model, and it is destroyed.

@Nosferatu: I understand that to some people, these questions have obvious answers and I am here to let you know that each one of these questions has come up in a game at one point or another. They are generally semi-confusing scenarios, especially for a Necron player to explain to a non-Necron player. This last one was an exception to that, where the Necron player did not want to lose his scarab swarm simply because his Tomb Spyder was among a mass of other models.

Thanks for your responses thus far. There are only a few left, but these next few are the ones that are the most contentious because they affect the game the most.

Sixth, Phase Out is calculated "at the beginning of the Necron turn" "after all We'll Be Back! rolls have been taken." The reason I separated the one quote into two is that they are (seemingly) contradictory. Monoliths can cause a re-roll of WBB, so at the beginning of the turn it is quite possible that all of the WBB rolls have not been taken yet. I think most people understand how this likely works, but it may need clarification. Is Phase Out calculated after the first, "normal," set of WBB rolls are taken, or ASAP after all rolls, including the Monolith re-rolls, are taken?

I think you answered your own question there, Kitzz. The start of the turn WBB rolls are the ones that you get before Phase Out! is checked for. The Monolith re-rolls don't happen regularly (or at all if you don't have a monolith) so they aren't incorporated in the (worst ever) army-wide special rule.

It is after ALL WBB rolls have been made; start of turn and start of movement phase are synonymous here.

It is only semi confusing if you ignroe the "put in base contact" wording and substitute for something else. It simply is a case of reading the entry carefully as the question is explicitly answered in the text

Kitzz wrote:
Sixth, Phase Out is calculated "at the beginning of the Necron turn" "after all We'll Be Back! rolls have been taken." The reason I separated the one quote into two is that they are (seemingly) contradictory. Monoliths can cause a re-roll of WBB, so at the beginning of the turn it is quite possible that all of the WBB rolls have not been taken yet. I think most people understand how this likely works, but it may need clarification. Is Phase Out calculated after the first, "normal," set of WBB rolls are taken, or ASAP after all rolls, including the Monolith re-rolls, are taken?

The key is found in the Monolith section that says that models in the unit that were eligible to self repair but "...failled their 'We'll Be Back' roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re-roll once as they emerge from the portal."

The phase out rule says you calculate it at the start of the turn after all WBB rolls have been made.

Monolith re-rolls are taken by models that failed the roll and were removed at the beginning of the turn. Clearly those models cannot be included in the current force for calculating phase out since, when you calculated phase out, they were removed.

Exactly. If the monolith's re-rolls of failed WBB were intended to count for phase-out calculation, then phase out should have been written to be checked at the end of the necron player's movement phase.

Again, thanks for your responses and agreement. Glad to know I'm not the only one doing things these ways.

Anyway, now for some fun stuff.

Sixth, Etheric Tempest.

A) If my opponent's unit is on the board edge and The Nightbringer is facing it directly, will it be destroyed similar to other units that fall back and find the table edge?
B) Does this work on fearless units?
C) If my opponent is situated according to the X in the following picture, with The Nightbringer being 0 and impassible terrain/enemy/friendly models being |, is the unit Trapped! and thus destroyed? Assume that both spaces left and right of The Nightbringer are NOT large enough for the unit to move through without being within 1" of an enemy.
|||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||| X ||||||||| ||||||||| O |||||||||||
D) Does this work on fearless units?
E) Same question as C, with a twist. Assume that both spaces left and right of The Nightbringer are large enough for the unit to move through without being within 1" of an enemy.
-------Opponent's Table Edge------- O |||||| X ||||| |||||||||||||||||| -----------Your Table Edge------------
F) Does this work on fearless units?

EDIT: So...the spacing doesn't work in my examples for some reason. Assume in both cases that The Nightbringer is directly above/below the unit in question.

EDIT2: Thanks, nosferatu!

IF you want to preserve multiple spaces you need to use the CODE tags.

From memory it does not work on fearless - check out the FAQ.

Fixed! And no, there's nothing about it not affecting fearless units.

If i remember right it works on any unit not comprised entirely of S 4+ (base) models. It's not a morale test, so Fearless would hae no effect.

It drives them directly away from the Nightbringer, i think. I'll need to hit up my codex to be sure, but i think it mentions it as working similarly in mechanics to falling back. They aren't actually falling back out of fear so much as being driven back by an explosion of gribbly energy.

I'll update if no-one else has when i can get to me dex

A- The unit is destroyed if it comes in contact with it's own board edge.

B- Yes, because the unit is not actually falling back.

C- The mechanic for the movement is the same as falling back. So if the situation would cause a unit to be destroyed durring a normal fall back move would still destroy the unit. It should be noted that the unit does not "Regroup" durring their turn but instead are free to move normally.

D- Yes, see "B".

E- While the mechanic for the movement is the same as falling back. There are differences in the rules. Namely the direction that the unit moves. In a normal fall back move the direction is your own table edge. But in Etheric Tempest the movement is directly away from the Nightbringer. So again the unit is trapped because it cannot move away from the Nightbringer without back tracking.

F- Yes, see "B".

What he said

Rulesninja'd

Well, if we are agreed on that, I believe the list of questions is growing rather smaller!

Seventh, I have for the duration of 5th ed. played that as long as the center hole of the blast is over an enemy model, it is a legal target. This is incredibly important to the Monolith, which treats all models under the hole as ap1 rather than ap3. There have been many situations where more than one model, including even multiple vehicles, have been under the center hole, and I believe that both models suffer ap1 hits. Am I correct?

Kitzz wrote:Seventh, I have for the duration of 5th ed. played that as long as the center hole of the blast is over an enemy model, it is a legal target. This is incredibly important to the Monolith, which treats all models under the hole as ap1 rather than ap3. There have been many situations where more than one model, including even multiple vehicles, have been under the center hole, and I believe that both models suffer ap1 hits. Am I correct?

No. None of the models are hit at all since the Necron Codex says any model under the hole in the middle of the Ordnance template gets hit, and there is no such thing as an "Ordnance template", only small and large blast markers.

But in actuality, the codex does say any model under the hole in the 'marker' is hit with an AP1 attack. The question would be, does this mean any model partially under the hole is hit with an AP1 attack?
This is similar to the rules for Blast weapons which does state "...all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit...".
So I would say that any model whose base (or hull) lies completely or partially under the center hole of the large blast marker would suffer an AP1 hit from the Particle Whip.

How high do you hold your blast markers over the models you're firing at? I can't imagine a scenario where 2 vehicles would get part of that tiny hole over their hull at the same time...maybe 2 infantry that are bunched together, though. I can see it being useful vs terminators and only if they're positioned (imo) far too close together.

Yeah, you might think it's rare, but it happens to me every third match or so.

NEARLY DONE (unless I think of more).

Eighth, If a Monolith rams in the movement phase, can it fire its Particle Whip?

Cannot fire any weapons is most likely overridden by the whips rules, so I would guess yes.

The power matrix rules allow it to be used even if the Monolith moves.
However, the particle whip is a weapon, it is specified as such twice in the Necorn codex.
As such, if the Monolith rammed in the movement phase, it would not be able to shoot in that turn's Shooting phase.
That would include the Gauss Flux Arcs and the Particle Whip both.