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Jabbdo wrote:

I do know how to play GK, thanks.

If that was REALLY true, you wouldnt claim that this is some sort of answer to the codex....


(leaves this thread laughing at the thought of spammed henchmen psykers throwing blast after blast after blast at this army....)

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

I do know how to play GK, thanks.

If that was REALLY true, you wouldnt claim that this is some sort of answer to the codex....


(leaves this thread laughing at the thought of spammed henchmen psykers throwing blast after blast after blast at this army....)

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

Plus the fact that against fully spread out guys (max coherency range) you'd hit 3 with a large blast. GZ.

I won't comment on your blatant insulting of my proficiency with playing Grey Knights, because I'll just be banging my head against a wall.

I know I play Grey Knights, I know I can play them reasonably well, I know my army is competitive. I don't feel the need to prove that to anyone on the internet so I can inflate my ego. You can believe what you like.

ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Jabbdo wrote:

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

.

Oh yea, I forgot, Mephiston starts within 24" to use it....every game....and it's impossible to kill that lychpin before he gets close.

...or am I mistaken and it's possible to get first turn (with coteaz in tow) and get 2-3 turns of fire on your army b-4 he gets close enough to hood me? Unless I blow him off the table first?

One of my closest buddies plays Blood Angels as his main army, he has played all kinds of lists against me, FULL out Assault squads, full mech list, libarian and furioso dreds all over the place. None of it really scares me from Blood Angels, any good list is always a threat. And we are about 50/50 on games of having played prolly 20+

No offense to anyone, but I dont think that list is as optomized as it could be. An example of what I run for a 2k list is something like:

Librarian, shield, other spell, JP

2x sang priests p. weapons (people say dont, but I have found them useful) JP

3x 10 man assault squads, 2 meltas, pf

2x 5 man devastator squads m launchers

1x 5 man devastator squad h bolters (just for fun preferance, sometimes I take this out for an uber leader like sangunator, or just a 2nd libby as points virtually same spent)

1x ironclad flak cannon, flamer, e armor, d. pod

1x death company dread flamer melta blood claws, drop pod

8x death company, 2x p weapon, t. hammer drop pod

I find this list works pretty well, although I havent played GK so I dont know how their warp quake would affect drop pods.

Basically I set everything up except for pods. 2 dreads come in close together and buy me generally a half a round or more of fire absorbtion, whilst i sneaky my way across. Punch stuff in face, land death company near biggest threat when they come in, although they get more attention from the enemy then they deserve really. Smart players ignore them till last unless its near something clutch to their strategy.

I don't get it...Mephiston is simultaneously outside the GK Librarians psychic hood range, yet he's inside his psychic hood range to lock down our powers.

And to be honest I believe the list I use would put on a lot of hurt before you get close enough to do damage. Possibly a tough game, but I have played lists like this before and won. Sorry...not a solid counter in my opinion.

Jabbdo wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.

Unholy_Martyr obviously is because he gave a list for you just to TRY to beat. Guess some one did piss in your cherrios

How bout fielding a Astorah with them ? I know hes not the best beatstick, however making most of the troops (better chance rolling 3) fearless and Fc with 50+ MEQ's can be rampage

I think the OP needs to realize that BA are no solid counter to GK. Perhaps some lists can be built that way, but this is not one of them.

So against purifiers...you charge at I5 and Purifiers still go first if they have halberds (which they will). 2 attacks each on say 4 models...your assault squads are 5 strong. Purifiers will own them. Melta may knock out their transport, but charging someone who gets an armour save (while you don't) and attacks before you is not smart. Take into account the inevitable dread support and you are looking at losing 6/7 infantry a turn. Whittle down the 10 man squads to make them easy prey. When that's done shoot the 5 man squads. And don't even think about charging ven dreads...you will be stuck there the rest of the game.

Mephiston is a beat stick to be sure, but you only have to throw a Grandmaster with rad grenades at him to have a reasonable chance of killing him. Throw in some supporting GK's and as soon as he hits combat he's gone. He may well wipe a squad, but then he gets charged with a ton of force weapons...some will get through his hood.

Against Coteaz lists...well you need to get your hood in range. Which Mephiston will do in 2 turns. And probably only against half the Psykers since a smart player will split them. The rest are gonna be bringing a beating and DCA will also tear you to shreds. Again I6 power weapons. This time at WS 5 though. And your dudes won't be in cover because you are jump infantry.

Khorne Flakes wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.

Unholy_Martyr obviously is because he gave a list for you just to TRY to beat. Guess some one did piss in your cherrios

That just doesn't make sense, but ok..


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Deadshane1 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

.

Oh yea, I forgot, Mephiston starts within 24" to use it....every game....and it's impossible to kill that lychpin before he gets close.

...or am I mistaken and it's possible to get first turn (with coteaz in tow) and get 2-3 turns of fire on your army b-4 he gets close enough to hood me? Unless I blow him off the table first?

1 Turn, actually, most of the time, 2 at most. No way 3, unless you deploy them so that they're out of range themselves.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

No, not impossible, but realistically, what GK shooting is gonna kill Meph apart from rending psycannons? Psyrazors? Psyflemen? Really?

Mephiston doesn't like force weapons. Throw enough of them at him at I6 (halberds), I5 (grandmaster), I4 (regular GK's) and I1 (hammer) and he will fail his hood eventually.

With Coteaz we have a better chance of stealing (30.5555%) and reduce your chance of successfully stealing (2.7%). Thus we are more likely to get first turn and with mobile firepower (which GK's have lots of) we can force you to come us while punishing you for it and simultaneously backing away. You are looking at a turn 2 charge against maybe 1 or 2 (sacrificial) units and turn 3 for the rest.

If you get turn 1 we don't need to be in range...you are moving 12" a turn towards us right? If we get turn 1 we back off a bit and shoot. Rinse and repeat.

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

Really guys, think about it for a second. A single Psyfleman will kill 0,987 marines per turn, ignoring FnP. That's really not a lot. Psybolt razors will kill 0,370 marines per turn, with FnP. You need 3 of them to kill a single one. See where I'm going here? The only shooting that you have that CAN actually damage me (mass Psycannons) are 24" in range, meaning that if you're shooting them, next turn I'm shooting you.

Yes, mass Power weapons will kill me. On the other hand, how often do you see strike squad marines packing Halberds? Pretty rarely. And even if they are, one attack per guy doesn't exactly scare the gak out of me, especially when they are usually run in 5 man squads. Same thing with Purifiers, except they'll kill a few more before going down to mass FC attacks. Bear in mind also that before charging those GK will be taking plenty of melta, which will whittle down those 5 man squads nicely.

Meph will almost certainly die during the game. I'm fine with that. If he draws fire, kills 2 squads, then dies, I'm happy. You dont want Meph charging in alone, because if you let him get charged then he dies (Psychout grenades). The trick with this list is picking your combats so your army doesnt fall apart in your hands. Killing off one squad at a time, while taking the charge on the 5 man sacrificial squads lets you wipe out the army piecemeal, instead of fighting more even fights where your squads will take damage. Remember that GK shooting is INEFFECTIVE against FnP marines.


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Lukus83 wrote:Mephiston doesn't like force weapons. Throw enough of them at him at I6 (halberds), I5 (grandmaster), I4 (regular GK's) and I1 (hammer) and he will fail his hood eventually.

With Coteaz we have a better chance of stealing (30.5555%) and reduce your chance of successfully stealing (2.7%). Thus we are more likely to get first turn and with mobile firepower (which GK's have lots of) we can force you to come us while punishing you for it and simultaneously backing away. You are looking at a turn 2 charge against maybe 1 or 2 (sacrificial) units and turn 3 for the rest.

If you get turn 1 we don't need to be in range...you are moving 12" a turn towards us right? If we get turn 1 we back off a bit and shoot. Rinse and repeat.

What are you shooting with at over 24" range? Psybolt razors? Psyflemen? Both of these are ineffective against FnP marines (granted, I wont get FnP against the dreads, but they'll be killing 0,987 marines each.)

When your Psycannons are in range (the stuff that can actually hurt me), that means I'll be in range next turn.


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Lukus83 wrote:I don't get it...Mephiston is simultaneously outside the GK Librarians psychic hood range, yet he's inside his psychic hood range to lock down our powers.

And to be honest I believe the list I use would put on a lot of hurt before you get close enough to do damage. Possibly a tough game, but I have played lists like this before and won. Sorry...not a solid counter in my opinion.

Referring to different lists. One had a Lib, another had Psykers. But ok.

Meph will be out of the Lib's hood range to use wings, yes. When he's inside it, he'll be close enough to charge (and still have the upper hand in mobility thanks to fleet.)

But if necessary, yes I'd run Meph into an opponents hood range to allow him to nullify Psykers.

Purifiers work best supporting each other closely. You charge 1 unit with Mephiston and then you lose him to the counter attack. The melta won't be shooting Purifiers...they will be opening transports. Purifiers also tend to be backed up by at least 5 dreads in a competitive setting. Crowe also can easily go 1 on 1 with Mephiston.

Psykers are a danger for BA. You need to get in hood range, but doing so puts you in range of melta henchmen and DCA. When charging you will also be taking potential wounds from DT tests thanks to Coteaz.

I say give your list a try against a competitive GK player in your area and see how it does.

I have to agree with everyone else on the board. A decent GK list will wipe this list.

Stormraven w/10x Purifiers w/Stave, 2x Hammer, Psycannon, Incinerator, 5x Halberds

^ This is one of my standard load outs. I can keep up and move faster with a 4+ Cover, once in range to assault a 10 man assault squad, kill maybe 1 or 2 in shooting, kill 4 at I6, kill 1 at I4 while you attack (Killing maybe one..), and killing 3 at I1 while your PW Fist is useless with Stave with only 2 attacks. If you fall back and don't get caught in sweep (meaning locked), then you turn all remaining firepower on them (11 Meltas, 33 Pistols) and kill 6ish with melta, killing 6ish with pistols. Only Mephiston doesn't fire at them. Meanwhile the remaing 1500 points in the GK is untouched to decend. Even if you only turn one assault squad against them, Kill 2 or 3 in Shooting, then assaulting loosing 2ish at I6, 1 at I4 while killing 2 purifiers, and loosing another 2 at I1 while PW fist is negated, you lost the assault and may or may not fall back.. That's if hammerhand fails..

My problem with this is that it takes half your army to take down one squad, meanwhile the rest of the army is coming down on you.

It is currently 3:20 am... I am too tired to be subtle so I will just say this plainly...

OP looks like he is trolling... or works for the GW studio team...

Short range weapons and hopes to play to the GK's strength of denying Deepstrikes...

Still plays to GK's strength and picks and HQ with multiple wounds that has a history of rolling armies but lacks an invulnerable save and eternal warrior against GK's army wide force weapons...

:LOL: I would play the above list with my Mekinized ork list and just mob them as they come in bit by bit...

I decided to be helpful and also post what I thought would help against GK... Dreadnoughts... Armor 12 and 13 dreadnoughts would be tough for any GK army at 1750 to take on... The best the GK player could do is shoot with psybolt assault cannons...

Also a Death company with jet packs and power weapons and the special character that lets them re-roll... yes I know that would be expensive but it would be effectively immune to shooting and anything hit in HTH dies...

10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Personally i think your army might struggle against GK paladin army, where I don’t think quantity of melta and FNP would be that decisive. But they are very rare, so overall i would bet on your list...

QuietOrkmi wrote:10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Honestly I wouldn't be that concerned by this unit, out pops my GM and Paladins from the Raven and you have one dead unit before it even lands a blow, also this unit could be heavily screwed by any character in a unit with psycotroke grenades, even without that and just using rads and hammerhand the Paladins could kill 5 before they even strike and then the GM another two or the character with his force weapon, whatever is left over would be finished by the daemon hammer in the unit, its pretty scary for the strikes but thats about it.

Me I don't really find the list in the OP all that scary, I have seen far better less with less models made from a BA book, thing is its not always quantity but quality thats matters, two priests to cover a whole army is just stupid, what if they have a vindcare assassin? why any Grey knight player be concerned by Mephiston, especially in a list with no range threats, keep my raven still and just lob all my mind strikes at him turn one guided by a skull probe then power of the machine spirit the plasma cannons on one of the small units, I think most GK lists could even try assault thing, with me Dread on the lightning claw unit, termies on one big unit, paladins on another, 2 strikes on another two units and GM on a small unit, potentially thats 6 units dead in a turn, if not dead they will be extremely weakened.

Other option is you just stay in you transports, stay over 12" away and the claim objectives last turn, job done.

BA units that worry me, Sang guard with Dante and a million inferno pistols jumping on my arse, death company dreads with blood talons, Baal preds with inferno cannons, not assault marines, main problem with this list is that is assumes that all GK can do is shoot and if you spam them in combat you will win, me I am very happy to blast you with 16 strength S5 storm bolters and 4 S7 assault cannon shoots and then charge you with 14 strength 5 forces weapons and 3 strength 10 thunder hammers attacks

In fact, AM will struggle against GKs and Meph will struggle too since FnP doesn't work in cc against GK force weapons.
As said an alternative could be a Dread heavy army with Furioso w/ blood talons which would make short work with GKs in cc.

The list isn't auto win against GK, but what kind of list is? At least here in Finland GK counter is considered to be a list that can reasonably play a draw against GK and i think this list can do it.

Sorry this is going to be a huge brick of text

Mephiston IS good against GK because GK doesn't have the kind of fire power to remove him from the play. You really don't torrent down Meph with FNP. Meph also brings a psychic hood and also he can kill small squads of strike marines and purifiers and even kill dreadnoughts. Normal marine with force weapon will wound Meph on 6+ and hammer on 2+ so you will probably get the wound off at initiative 1 which means Meph can eat your squad at the same time which means you will lose at least 2 squad to him. Then you need to pass LD 9 check in order to get your force weapons work which folds 1/6 of the time and then Meph nullifies you about 60% of the time. So we end up with a pretty slight chance of actually killing Meph.

I will write more about this list when i have more time.

Herra...I don't think you realize that Grey Knights don't need to have the firepower to drop him, all Grey Knights have to do is sit back and wait for the angry cow to come to them. Grey Knights can take him in assault, Purifier armies would cream their panties at the thought of taking Mephiston down. All that has to happen is a squad get the charge on Mephiston...and you can pretty much write him off after that. If someone plays a well built purifier army, they'll probably gun down the assault squads, enjoy their Vindicare knocking out your fabulous Feel No Pain bubble and then giggle when your Assault Squads hop into combat and lose half of the unit before they can swing. Hell, even still, who is to assume the Grey Knight is just going to sit back and have you come to him? Even poorly built Grey Knight Armies could have fun with this list.

The Paladin list I posted before is totally out of my ass but the fact remains, there is a unit that you cannot deal with head to head. Mephiston can't deal with it, all of your Marines could probably drop a good many of the Paladins but in the end would prefer not to go the route of the dead man.

Here's my friends 2000 point purifier army toned down to 1750:

H.Q.

Crowe -150

Elites

Vindicare -145

Troops

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 9x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x Sword, Rhino -265

Purifiers 10x
Justicar w/Hammer, 4x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x Sword, Rhino -333

Heavy Support

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo -135

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo -135

Total: 1750

You're losing both Priests in the first 2 turns...I guarantee it. Now how is that Feel No Pain and Furious Charge Bubble feeling? You can Deep Strike now, super. I hope you do it because every poor bastard that shows up is going to die, I guarantee it. If you had the most amazing reserve rolls ever and got the entire army into Melta range, you would be in for the most phenomenal counter attack you've ever seen. If those Purifiers Multi Charge, they won't even need Hammerhand, they can just all cast Cleansing Flame and snicker at all of the saves you have to make before you even get to swing...oh and that wonderful hood Mephiston is packing? Well he can't Deep Strike so he won't be dong much except trying to haul ass and save his buddies.

Let's just be honest here...you'll be better with something a little less dependent on surprise that isn't there and something a little more hardy. Either with regular Librarians getting you to where you want to be or going with a Dreadnought approach as some suggested. Furioso Dreadnoughts are the bane of any Marine army thanks to their AV13 front and obscene Close Combat Abilities. A Storm Raven army could do you well against Grey Knights...there are just so many more efficient ways to approach this situation than to depend on a linchpin that could be shut down before having a chance to come into play. That's all I am saying.

I think most people are making the wrong prediction, that the BA list will DS. Read Hulksmash's post on his blog. BA rarely want to DS. They do very well running up the field. Also, the vindicare will kill 2 priests in 4 turns. We have to remember cover saves, or does he ignore them?

I personally think my tau list is a better counter, but many people have said that jump pack BA are very good against GK (the infamous stelek being one of them). I don't share a similar fetish towards mephiston as Jabbdo, but I do agree that a list such as this would fare very well against GK.

Purifiers are semi-good in CC. Strike Squads fold like baby tactical marines with a single attack... Oh wait, they have a single attack.

HerraMauno wrote:Mephiston IS good against GK because GK doesn't have the kind of fire power to remove him from the play. You really don't torrent down Meph with FNP. Meph also brings a psychic hood and also he can kill small squads of strike marines and purifiers and even kill dreadnoughts.

This simply isn't true, a stormraven has all the firepower it needs to take him out in the turn, combine that with a 5pts skull probe and you should hit with all 4 mind strike missiles and then just finish him off with a plasma cannon, its hardly as if he has anything else worth using them on, he can certainly kill dreads if he manages to cast any of his powers however thanks to reinforced ageis he is taking his tests on leadership 6 and that doesn't even take into account the GK having his own psychic hood (as most seem to use libs anyways), if he is charged then he is striking last (assuming he made it past turn 1/2).

haizelhoff wrote:I think most people are making the wrong prediction, that the BA list will DS. Read Hulksmash's post on his blog. BA rarely want to DS. They do very well running up the field. Also, the vindicare will kill 2 priests in 4 turns. We have to remember cover saves, or does he ignore them

He only really needs to kill one, the FNP buble is very small and with the amount of troops he has he is really stretching his ability to cover it, i think its very reasonable to assume that the vindicare can kill on and the massed fire can kill the other and his body guard in a turn, especially if you popping out 30+ psycannons a turn into a unit plus all the storm bolter fire.

Dude, just a question, as I always think your lists are pretty cool. How do you figure that 3 Psynoughts will kill 0,987 Marines? I'm crap at mathshammer and using my workings (and probably wrong) it's about 2.83 Marines dead (as no feel no pain which you no doubt know). I theoried that triple Psynoughts would hit 10 times including twin-linked wound about roughly 8 times and after armour saves about nearly 3 Marines dead. Of course though, why would Psynoughts be firing at Marines unless all the Razorbacks have gone and I doubt all of them will be.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:You're losing both Priests in the first 2 turns...I guarantee it. Now how is that Feel No Pain and Furious Charge Bubble feeling? You can Deep Strike now, super. I hope you do it because every poor bastard that shows up is going to die, I guarantee it. If you had the most amazing reserve rolls ever and got the entire army into Melta range, you would be in for the most phenomenal counter attack you've ever seen. If those Purifiers Multi Charge, they won't even need Hammerhand, they can just all cast Cleansing Flame and snicker at all of the saves you have to make before you even get to swing...oh and that wonderful hood Mephiston is packing? Well he can't Deep Strike so he won't be dong much except trying to haul ass and save his buddies.

You can guarantee that your one vindicare assassin will kill 2 models in two turns? He will never miss, never fail to wound, and the opponent will fail his cover save 100% of the time? That's a pretty impressive control over dice that you have. Also, why are you assuming he would deep strike, as you correctly point out that would be a terrible idea?

I'm not saying the OPs list is ridiculous or a counter to Grey Knights (it isn't). But neither does it auto-lose the way everyone seems to think. It may or may not be at a disadvantage, depending on the specifics of the GK list, but with decently built armies in the 5th edition codexes, there really aren't any "Auto-Win" situations.

I've also seen a number of people talking about Reinforced Aegis shutting down Mephiston. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Reinforced Aegis just boost The Aegis, which says if you are casting a power that targets the GK then you are at a minus to your leadership? Mephiston doesn't have any abilities that target the opponent (they are all self-buffs), so Reinforced Aegis would not come into play at all.

mercer wrote:Dude, just a question, as I always think your lists are pretty cool. How do you figure that 3 Psynoughts will kill 0,987 Marines? I'm crap at mathshammer and using my workings (and probably wrong) it's about 2.83 Marines dead (as no feel no pain which you no doubt know). I theoried that triple Psynoughts would hit 10 times including twin-linked wound about roughly 8 times and after armour saves about nearly 3 Marines dead. Of course though, why would Psynoughts be firing at Marines unless all the Razorbacks have gone and I doubt all of them will be.

Its 0.987 marines per dread, IIRC. So around 2,83 altogether. My mathhammer could be off, of course, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guys.

In no way am I saying that what I have presented in the two lists are "auto-win" situations, what I am trying to show is that most form of Grey Knight lists (not including Henchmen Garbage because its not Grey Knight) will be able to handle this army fairly easily.

Jump Pack Blood Angels work best when they can close fast with an opponent and overwhelming them in close combat. As it stands, you have an H.Q. here that probably will keep up with the army but sometimes may fall short. With that, you lose out on Psychic Defense as well as a major component of the army's threat factor. All I am doing is pointing out flaws and issues with reliability.

Facts that I point out, such as the major likelihood that he'll be losing a Sanguinary Priest (Seriously, the guy is BS 8, his gun basically autokills anything it touches outside of a Land Raider). If the Sanguinary Priest is in cover, all the better for me. That means he had to take Dangerous Terrain on the way in and probably will have to on the way out. He can't hide in his unit and if he uses another unit to block it, guess what, when and if he gets into close combat, he will most likely be out of his Furious Charge and Feel No Pain bubble. These are the inherent weaknesses with the list and the plan.

I've already voiced my thoughts on improving the list. Which, interestingly enough, seem to have either been missed or totally disregarded. The simplest fix would be an exchanging of Mephiston for 2 Librarians with Jump Packs. Now you have constant Psychic Defense that for the most part will be unable to be singled out (outside of combat) and have access to a wider range of Psychic Abilities (Shield and Lance come to mind), garnering more flexibility. Another option is a Dreadnought/Storn Raven Army. As I said before, Fuiroso's have almost no answer in the Grey Knights units that are traditionally fielded. Even more so, you could go as far to do a good old fashioned Mech Spam army and roll out with 6 Predators and several Razorbacks. Target priority will win the day and effective cover usage as well as maneuvers will let you shred the Grey Knights from outside of their major threat range and mop up afterwards.

These are just matters of opinion and observation, no more, no less.

I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

What do all the predators have and how many razor backs and how many points are you talking about here ?

Khorne Flakes wrote:

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

What do all the predators have and how many razor backs and how many points are you talking about here ?

TBH, GK would rape BA razorspam. Dreads>Preds, and even Psybolt razors can destroy (or at least suppress) your razors, while you cant suppress theirs (Fortitude is fun!).