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In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

Coteaz...100pts

Librarian
3x servo skulls
Warp Rift, Sanctuary, Might of Titan...180pts

Ven Dread (psyfleman)...195pts
Vindicare Assassin...145pts

3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
6 DCA + 4 Crusaders...150pts

Stormraven...205pts

Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts

Total...1748pts

Now I don't know if this would be competitive or not at 1750, but I think it would be the kind of Coteaz list that will become more and more common as soon as people realize how under-costed the henchmen are.

I would also put up a Purifier list but alas, I have no experience with them...I dislike their reliance on psychic powers.

Look, i play GK and BA, and i generally do not like Meph very much, as i think he is sort of hit or miss when it comes to being worth the points (mainly because focused las, melta and plasma make him cry, at least in my experience), but i really don't see how anyone can think he is not a scary match up for GK.

First of all, he's almost always going to get to you, as it's pretty hard to shoot him to death.

On average, It takes 82 Str8 autocannon shots to kill Mephiston if he has FNP and cover.
Or 135 S6 heavy bolter shots
Or 540 S4 storm bolter shots. (or 270 S5)
Or 60 psycannon shots.

So, basically, the only thing worth shooting at him is psycannons, but you need 15 heavy or 30 assault, which means that's like, your whole army's shooting twice (my GK army has 11 psycannons...but a purifier list might havee 15), and that your storm bolters get shot at him too, even though they basically all bounce off.

What all this means is, that generally it's probably better to just ignore mephiston, and focus your fire on the regular marines in the army.

The problem with that is that even when focused on regular marines, GK have a hard time killing them in shooting.

My GK army has 8 HB razorbacks, 3 psyflmen dreads, 30 strikes with 6 psycannons, 10 purifiers with 4 psycannons, an inquisitor with psycannon, and a lib with 3 powers. I think it's a pretty good army.

If I ignored mephiston and simply shot at FNP marines, i'd kill 12.3 to 15.1 per shooting phase, depending on whether or not i move my psycannons. That's not bad, i guess...but it's not amazing, either. But, it is probably better than just putting a few wounds on Mephiston, considering you have at the most 2 turns of shooting (probably 1, unless you hug the back board edge) before the marines hit you.

The next problem with BA VS GK is that the BA are faster, and therefore get to control what and where they attack. It is very easy for them to move, shoot, assault, win the combat, and consolidate back to relitive safety the next turn unless the GK position very very well (and even then it is hard for the GK to not have a few weak spots).

8 pistols and 2 meltas, and then 27 S5 I6 attacks and a S5 I6 Power sword kill 6.11 marines, which is more than the regular 5 that most GK squads contain, meaning that in general the BAs are not going to have a problem killing an entire squad of GK a turn if they charge them. The key is to pick the outlying troops in a GK force, and then consolidate away from the rest of their troops to avoid getting charged.

And, even if a GK strike squad does shoot 4 storm bolters and and a psycannon at the BAs, they are only going to kill 3.59 marines (shooting and CC combined). So, you need at least 2 GK squads to make that work.

Purifiers so slightly better, with 4.4.

And, both numbers are assuming you get off hammerhand, by the way. and with libs around, and Ld9 in general, will not always happen.

And, even though they got charged, the 10 BA still kill 2.3 marines back, which isn't great, but it means they ultimately win their combats (as the GK get about as bad in the later turns), assuming they don't run away or get ganged up on.

The chances of killing mephiston in combat are equally (or, more, really) bad.

5 purifiers with 2 psycannons charging mephiston do .75 force wep wounds to mephiston if they have no hammers, and and 1.75 if they have 1.

The activation has a 83% chance to go off, and mephiston will hood it if unless the GK beat his roll by 2 (since he is Ld10 and they are 9).

And, since it's the hammer that does the damage, Mephiston usually still gets to hit, meaning most of the squad is going to go poof, and probably lose more to fearless wounds.

What this means is that ideally you'd assault Mephiston with like 3-4 squads of purifiers in order to kill him reliably, which really just isn't possible most of the time. You actually have to get lucky for most GK units to kill Mephiston, and have to be very lucky to kill him before he pops the squad that gets him.

What all this means in my mind, is that DOA style BA, and Mephiston as well, are all a fairly bad (or at the very least an even) match up for GK, who really do not seem to have a lot of the right tools in their regular listsfor taking out mass 3+(4+FNP) marines, let alone 2+ save T7 monsters that can hood their force weapons, and eat them on the charge.

The durabilty, CC prowess, and speed of the BA allow them to attack the GK where they want to and then back off as much as possible, and as long as they can avoid getting attacked by equal numbers of marines, they are generally going to win the combats, and with things like meltaguns, meltabombs and fists in the majority of the squads, even the dreadnoughts are not going to do well against them, since they only have a few s6 attacks that bounce off of armor and FNP. I would say that this (DOA style FNP BA) is a pretty decent "counter" to STANDARD MECH GK (a full terminator list could give them a run for their money IMO, but those are a bit more rare), though its not really a counter so much as a bad match up for them, since FNP DOA is a good list for BA anyway, and works against most other opponents as well.

All of this being said, i do see coteaz henchmen armies having a much easier time against BA, since they have meltaguns, and are slightly harder to get out of their transports (since regular GK don't really go in theirs at all). But things like dreads and razorbacks are still pretty much wasted.

Anyway, that's what i think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lukus83 wrote:In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

Coteaz...100pts

Librarian
3x servo skulls
Warp Rift, Sanctuary, Might of Titan...180pts

Ven Dread (psyfleman)...195pts
Vindicare Assassin...145pts

3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
6 DCA + 4 Crusaders...150pts

Stormraven...205pts

Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts

Total...1748pts

Now I don't know if this would be competitive or not at 1750, but I think it would be the kind of Coteaz list that will become more and more common as soon as people realize how under-costed the henchmen are.

I would also put up a Purifier list but alas, I have no experience with them...I dislike their reliance on psychic powers.

The thing is, FNP marines (often with a 5+ cover save from a lib) don't care about heavy bolters (the 5 in your list will kill 2 marines a turn), or even autocannons (you'll kill about 4 a turn with your list). The assassins will kill a fair amount, but can be easily shot and multi-charged by 15-20 marines until they die, and since they are being wounded on 2s, they are probably going to die.

In the rest of the army, the only dangerous things in it are really the melta and plasma guns (though with BS3 all you kill a turn is like 7, and you lose 1 plasma something like each time you fire,) which have to get out to fire, and that means they die (2 marines can beat them...).

The dreads have no real weapons, and die to fists / melta bombs if they do somehow get into combat.

The lib will put up the best fight, but even he will die to a power sword or fist, or even a failed armor save at some point, since he's only going to kill a few marines a turn in CC.

In the end, that list is not good against mass FNP marines at all.

Well to be fair I don't run full Coteaz lists. I prefer a balanced list. This was just off the top of my head. I'm sure someone else can figure out a better way to make a Coteaz list that works.

Anyway, I think that's gonna be my final input for this thread.

Lukus83 wrote:In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

I never claimed no-one ran Coteaz lists. I myself run a Coteaz list, for example. Its just that he isn't an "auto-include", as most of the units that I mentioned are.

TBH, a Coteaz list would be FAR easier to beat than an MSU GK list, as there is nothing (if your opponent is playing pure MSU henchmen) or at least less units (maybe a few Purifier squads or some DCA) that can beat you in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarshallDin wrote:

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Nope, he's not the only one..count me in as well...

So far I've found that Meph is really useful for hunting GK Dreads, Dreadknights, Strike sqds, Interceptor sqds...well, most GK MSU units. Eventually he'll die, but 90% of the time not before taking out many crucial units from the GK opponents.

Yeah, I was referring to all the Meph haters earlier in the thread

Well said, though. Its highly probable, if not inevitable, that Meph WILL die. He dies most games I play him. Its what he manages to take out before dying that counts. (Although against GK, I'd be less keen on suiciding him as his Hood helps out a lot, if its not completely necessary to suicide him to kill a couple of squads then don't )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing that I find funny is that I'm accused of ignoring criticizms and flaming, and yet when I post up responses as to why said criticizms are faulty, none of the haters reply.


Says much?

Jabbdo wrote:

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

I thought he had eternal warrior

mercer wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

I thought he had eternal warrior

That would be the definition of BROKEN.