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I play mainly Space Wolves and Grey Knights. As a Grey Knight player, my biggest concerns are heavy mechanized armies with high armor values. Land Raiders give me fits, Predators can be a nuisance and certainly 6 Predators is no different. Add in 6 Las/PLas Razorbacks that are almost always going to have a cover save of some sort and now you're at the level of painstaking frustration.


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@Jabbdo

Because Grey Knights have all of this imaginary >S7 shooting that's at 48"? Seriously man, 36" S6 shots decimating Razorbacks? Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it. The biggest threat to Razor/Pred Spam Blood Angels are Psybolt Autocannons...and you're maybe seeing 3 of those in a list...okay, light up all that AV13 with your 3 Dreadnoughts. Enjoy how long that lasts.

Sometimes I think about the comments you make and a serious doubt about your experience with these various situations creeps into my mind...

Actually, str6 shooing @ 36" can hurt razors, because all you need is some kind of damage result and that razor isnt shooting next turn (barring immobilized results). Grey Knights win because they CAN suppress your razors, while you CAN'T suppress theirs. Dreads will make short work of razors, and can the move on to preds. Fire enough shots at them (and bring your Psyrazors to bear on their sides) and GK WILL kill your preds.

"Sometimes I think about the comments you make and a serious doubt about your experience with these various situations creeps into my mind..."

Sorry that I have to put his bluntly: I really don't care. Sorry about that. I really don't care whether you guys think I'm some kind of 40k Veteran or an 11 year old n00b hiding in his basement. Believe what you will. I know that I am a fairly experienced 40k player. What you guys think isn't my problem.

The problem is you speak so "matter of factly" when in reality the most you bring to the discussion is theory and a blanket overestimation of the abilities of many units.

Take for instance your stance on 36" shooting. That's cool and all but what about the extra 12" that Blood Angel player is going to work for? Sure you can move up 6" for an effective 42" range; which is great and all, but where on God's Green Earth are you finding these magical vacuum situations?

Your rattled off tactics and solutions are so one dimensional that I almost foresee rage quitting as a replacement for losses in your personal record.

The fact is, you post here, ask for feedback and respond like a rabid porcupine with eczema. Throwing out rage filled responses while overlooking any input that people may offer. On several occasions in this thread I have offered advice and in not one single instance have you acknowledged it or responded to it. With inflammatory responses like your own inundating threads, its no wonder why people just come out and tell you that you're wrong.

3 Auto/Las Preds, 3 TL-AC only Baals, 4 Las/Plas Razorbacks, Librarian with Shield, 1500 points. Add more RBs and maybe a second Libby as points go up.


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Oh, and in my one game against GK, my opponent had 3 Psyriflemen. By the end of turn 2, one was dead, one was weaponless and immobilized, the third had one arm left.

Now, the rest of his list was 15 Terminators, a Chapter Master and a Librarian, all of which DSed, so I didn't have any other targets turn 1. On the other hand, I was running Dakka Preds that game. I had decent results with the Autocannons, but the HBs were obviously a waste.

Sure, Jabbdo flames alot. That's because like one other well known internet persona, he enjoys it. However, I don't think Jabbdo is the only one overestimating. Stating that a vindicare will kill 2 priests in 2 turns is an example of counter-exageration.

Let's look at an example gk list that I see way too often:

inquisitors with psycannons in chimera

6-7x psybolt razors with 3x5 purifiers and 3-4x5 strike marines

3x psyflemen

What would you start with? The marines? Mephiston? Honour Guard?

BA deploy. You shoot at assault marines (let's face it, that is way smarter). If BA go first, that is one turn of shooting (you destroy one ASM squad). GK might however get 2 turns and hose down two squads (maybe even with priests). After that you have jump infantry that are all capable of destroying your scoring capacity and a couple of squads (meph and larger assault squads) that can kill the purifiers on the charge. The BA don't even care about the razorbacks because you have to jump out to shoot, and psybolt razors just don't cut through fnp marines. Without careful blocking, you might be looking at no more scoring units on t2-3.

It would seem that most have taken the stance that this list is not a GK counter. I'm trying to balance the equilibrium (without nerdrage hopefully) and provide counterpoints that aren't ''You're wrong and an a**hole!''

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

Its not really a all round list, its just spam assault marines and melta-guns, iI think if you drop the small squads of assault marines for from DC dreads with blood talons in pods (either drop outside the 12" or if you go first get up close and personal), maybe swap one of the assault squads for death company and take a cheaper character, instead of dreads you could take baals with inferno cannons for power armour killing goodness.

It's pretty much a standard all Jumpers list, minus the Vanguard Vets and adding Mephiston. I don't think it's the pinnacle of such lists, but it's decent.

Played against a BA army with 2 tactical squads with las/plas and a TL Las RB, and a Predator with Las. Also had sanguinor and meph, and 5 SS/TH termies in LR.

This game was the closest I've come to losing or being a draw with the GK. His fire power took out my mobility of the rhino's, and once I disembarked the storm ravens (no more cover) I lost those as well. That's a lot of difficult terrain to get through, and lost quite a few in dangerous as well. I only won because I had a squad on an objective from the start that hardly moved, while he decided not to go after any objectives and instead try to table me.

Las cannons, not melta guns, are what is difficult for GK because they're not in their range and can quickly slow them down. Still need to have something to slow down the disembarking GK from Stormravens, and that's where the TH/SS termies come in.

Jabbdo wrote:

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

And your meta speaks for the entirety of the wargaming meta how, exactly? I was making a broad generalization for your broad generalization that your list would as you put it "make GK players cry."

Quote more mathhammer, please. God knows that's how the dice actually roll when you need them to.

You know what guys? feth it. I'm not gonna bother arguing. I'll put up batreps, then maybe you'll understand what the list is meant to do, as you clearly don't ATM. Whatevs guys. The fact is, you can flame as much as you fething want, its not gonna change the fact that this list WILL beat MSU PA GK, which is the most commonly run GK army type in my meta.


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bforber wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

And your meta speaks for the entirety of the wargaming meta how, exactly? I was making a broad generalization for your broad generalization that your list would as you put it "make GK players cry."

Quote more mathhammer, please. God knows that's how the dice actually roll when you need them to.

Of course you build your lists to compete in your meta. What, you think I should build my lists with Australia's meta in mind? Wake up mate. OFC, the majority of all GK lists run in most meta's contain small PA GK units, but OFC you will dispute this and claim everyone runs mass Psyker hechman squads

OK, lets ignore mathammer. Lets ignore all probabilities. OK, your GK army has around 30-40 shots. Thats 30-40 dead marines, right? FFS. Probability is something you gotta deal with if you're gonna play 40k. One grot won't kill 10 THSS. Its possible. But its not gonna happen. You wanna disregard probabilities, that's the kind of gak your looking at.


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Unholy_Martyr wrote:The problem is you speak so "matter of factly" when in reality the most you bring to the discussion is theory and a blanket overestimation of the abilities of many units.

Take for instance your stance on 36" shooting. That's cool and all but what about the extra 12" that Blood Angel player is going to work for? Sure you can move up 6" for an effective 42" range; which is great and all, but where on God's Green Earth are you finding these magical vacuum situations?

Your rattled off tactics and solutions are so one dimensional that I almost foresee rage quitting as a replacement for losses in your personal record.

The fact is, you post here, ask for feedback and respond like a rabid porcupine with eczema. Throwing out rage filled responses while overlooking any input that people may offer. On several occasions in this thread I have offered advice and in not one single instance have you acknowledged it or responded to it. With inflammatory responses like your own inundating threads, its no wonder why people just come out and tell you that you're wrong.

Advice? Really? Mind quoting some of this "advice"? Because TBH, all I've seen from you (or from anyone) is insults, and claims about how the list sucks. Great fething advice, huh? That's gonna help a whole fething gakload.


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QuietOrkmi wrote:It is currently 3:20 am... I am too tired to be subtle so I will just say this plainly...

OP looks like he is trolling... or works for the GW studio team...

Short range weapons and hopes to play to the GK's strength of denying Deepstrikes...

Still plays to GK's strength and picks and HQ with multiple wounds that has a history of rolling armies but lacks an invulnerable save and eternal warrior against GK's army wide force weapons...

:LOL: I would play the above list with my Mekinized ork list and just mob them as they come in bit by bit...

I decided to be helpful and also post what I thought would help against GK... Dreadnoughts... Armor 12 and 13 dreadnoughts would be tough for any GK army at 1750 to take on... The best the GK player could do is shoot with psybolt assault cannons...

Also a Death company with jet packs and power weapons and the special character that lets them re-roll... yes I know that would be expensive but it would be effectively immune to shooting and anything hit in HTH dies...

10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Yeah... you think I'm trolling. WTF are you doing then? Dreads? Really? Wake the feth up. GK doesn't give a feth about dreads. Either mass psycannons own them, or str10 hammers in CC smack their faces in. Awesome "advice", thanks

I'm not ignoring mathhamer. I'm simply not acting like it's canon like some people do, (because seriously, $hi^ happens.)

I'm not disputing that people run mass psyker squads, either. lol Did you even read what I wrote? Broad generalization to counter broad generalization. Nothing more.

Anyway, batreps. Do them and maybe everyone can stop their back and forth flame war.

The MSU PAGK armies while they may be popular in your meta will not be the competitive lists that do well they should be accents to other lists focused around achieving certain things. I have played around 50 or so games vs just about every style of army save for sisters because no one plays them at my store using just about every list from draigo to shooty coteaz to crowe purifier spam to alpha strike 3x dreadknights etc. The current coteaz list I run would eat your BA list for breakfast every single game not a question in my mind.

Coteaz - 100

Librarian - MoT, Shrouding, Sanctuary, Quicksilver, ML3 - 220

Techmarine - Rad Grenades, Warding Stave, blind grenades- 135

Henchman 1 - Arco x6, Crusader x4, Chimera ML HF - 205

Henchman 2 - Deathcult x4, Crusader x4, Rhino - 160

Henchman 3 - Jokaero x2, Servitor x3 MM, Warriors x5 Stormbolters, Chimera ML HF - 165

Henchman 4 - Warrior x3, MG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Henchman 5 - Warrior x3, MG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Henchman 6 - Warrior x3, PG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Psyfleman - 135

Psyfleman - 135

Purifier x6 - Psycannon x2, Halbred x3, DH, Rhino - 220

Vindicare - 145

1999

To get to 1750 I'd just drop the vindi a purifier ML3 and the stave on the tech.

As to how my list would play vs yours you're not deepstriking near me as it would be a terribly stupid idea obviously so most likely I line my board edge with the chimeras out a little to provide the av12 and cover granting me first turn of shooting which will be poured into meph if I'm lucky he dies to it or if you're hiding him back he's a non issue and I go after whatever you have out front.


Turn two puts you into melta range on the chimeras and possibly assault so depending on turn order, higher chance I'm first due to coteaz but not much of course, I pop smoke on each of the chimeras while moving them an inch to provide myself with 3+ cover all around and making you have to hit if you assault. Now if you're playing smart you want that first wave to be light with your main body back a little to counter charge what I send out to hit your vanguard problem here is only thing thats getting out to completely decimate your first wave will be the TMarine with the DCA's and trust me between HH I6 Rad and 16 ws5 attacks no need for the crusaders or tech to do anything you're gonna die. I focus down meph if still alive than pour remaining fire into your 5 man squads if they aren't hidden if they are ill focus fire whatever 10 man squads up front. Now I have no idea how you play so you could just weight of fire my TMarine squad down which is your safest bet because with blind grenades it's a given you're not gonna assault anyway as I said have no idea how you would choose your targets but melta without 2d6 on rhino's with 3+ or the 2d6 on the chimeras also with the 3+ isn't great options either so total crapshoot how that would go but we'll give you the benefit here of the libby's getting blown up and some shaken/stunned results.

Turn 3 I have so much fire that you're gonna lose at LEAST a third of your marines no doubt between 6 TL PG shots, 3 lascannons, 4 autocannons on JUST the vehicles not to mention 6 meltaguns 3 more plasmaguns and coteaz squad firing 3 MM/2 LC, or just 5 MM as it's moot at the range, that's 25 shots that ignore your FNP and depending on how well shooting goes with the first 20 I could just move the chimera up 12 and use the eagle 3x HF and 2 stormbolters to provide weight of fire. If your 5 man squads are up front they're now screwed because I assault them with my dreads effectively tying them till they're dead if not you have a lone powerfist in your 10 mans and if you've played marines before than you know that you're tied for at least 2 rounds barring some incredible luck and depending if you killed the TMarine squad I have them still to assault you as well as the purifiers as well as the libbys squad I would say at worst for me you're reduced to 25 marines left.

Now what do you do? I now have 5, 6 or 7 depending on TMarine/coteaz, foot targets and 5 vehicles for your 3-5 remaining squads all of which can guaranteed kill marines so I will whittle you down due to superior saturation at this point over the remaining turns.

Now this is how this game will play out in just about every scenario with these armies as I run this group in this formation in all gametypes you cannot sit back because I badly outrange you and I have contingencies for if you go first or if you come at me piecemeal, that would actually be even easier for me. I have lost one game with this list and it was vs DEldar venom/blaster/ravager spam it's a really tough list but I've now beaten it twice due to figuring out what I need to focus my fire on. I don't think you can disagree with the logic of my post or rage against what I just wrote I'd love to play you in a game and prove my points as I have 3 BA players in my meta and have faced and slaughtered a DoA list like this so given distance you'll just have to take my word.

I have some GK players here as well and this list just lollerskates all over purifier spam. Coteaz on Coteaz can be highly annoying but definitely interesting as I see Coteaz being the focal for most of the competitive builds but PAGK definitely have their place in these lists as support ala my purifiers or a squad that a buddy of mine uses interceptors with an incinerator they can be used to cover your weak areas and bolster your army.

GK nasty, but this list has a decent shot.

Many of the criticisms of it made in this thread have had basic math or rules errors in them, or presume that there is no LOS-blocking terrain on the table whatsoever.

Small update:


Mephiston 250

2x Priest w/ Jumppack 150

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons, dozer blade 140

= 1750

Possible list. Preds can take hits at range thanks to av13, on the other hand they are vulnerable to suppression and are the only AV targets in the list. An option is subbing them for devs, then hanging back with a Priest to give them FnP during the first turns.

Thoughts?

Jabbdo wrote:Small update:


Mephiston 250

2x Priest w/ Jumppack 150

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons, dozer blade 140

= 1750

Possible list. Preds can take hits at range thanks to av13, on the other hand they are vulnerable to suppression and are the only AV targets in the list. An option is subbing them for devs, then hanging back with a Priest to give them FnP during the first turns.

Thoughts?

I like the Devastators idea more against all-comers. The Preds might be better against GK, as they match up quite well against Psyriflemen.

I've played against a list more or like this many many times. It can move damn fast and be over half way across the board by turn 2 easily. It has a crap load of Marines to asborb fire power so they still hit hard when smashing into the opponents force. The only difference with the other list is it had double Librarians (shield and unleash rage for the win), a Honour Guard unit with plasmas and min/max Devs with missile launchers. The Devs would take out or supress limited armour while the Assault Squads close the gap unleash melta and assault what's inside. The list was tough to beat when used correctly.

IMO the BA list would work better with added suppression firepower from dev squads. They can crack vehicles so you aren't relying on solely melta and gives the assault squads an opportunity to assault as soon as they reach charge range.

I had a game two weeks ago against BA with Mephiston. He ran out ahead and wrecked a rhino. My purifiers unloaded and assaulted him. They had halberds which were a waste on him. I say that because I forgot about the psykout grenades that should have lowered him to an initiative of 1. I'm pretty sure 15 power weapon attacks would have killed him. Instead, because of my newbie move, he killed the unit after two rounds but not before I dealt him three wounds. After which he got nailed by two psyrifle dreads for the last two wounds.

I think the biggest problem GK has that I noticed was that I was holding back on the attack as my rides had been wrecked and he did have 20 guys sitting on his objective. Not interested in walking into that much bolter fire with only 15 guys (crowe purifier list - one unit killed by Mephiston). I have since moved up to 4 6-man units but still need to work out the moving into assault in one piece (more or less).

Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Kind of leery about contributing since the OP isnt looking for opinions, just to argue about how awesome his list is. and i'm not 100% familiar with the BA codex.


Meph isnt' useful, IIRC he isnt eternal warriored and the whole army has force weapons, even so a grenaded up squad should be able to make short work of him.

Lots of FNP guys seem like not a bad idea since it really hurts the stormbolter aspect of the army
Since GK don't use blast templates and You dont need to spread out FNP bubbles can be pretty tight.

IMHO: BA would be better off with pred spam supported by melta units, anything that can start picking away at the GK's and eliminate psycannons if they combat squad, combat squads are your enemy you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads.

13 armor dreads with a built in hood are concerning to GK players once you reach combat..

Grundz wrote:Kind of leery about contributing since the OP isnt looking for opinions, just to argue about how awesome his list is. and i'm not 100% familiar with the BA codex.


Meph isnt' useful, IIRC he isnt eternal warriored and the whole army has force weapons, even so a grenaded up squad should be able to make short work of him.

Lots of FNP guys seem like not a bad idea since it really hurts the stormbolter aspect of the army
Since GK don't use blast templates and You dont need to spread out FNP bubbles can be pretty tight.

IMHO: BA would be better off with pred spam supported by melta units, anything that can start picking away at the GK's and eliminate psycannons if they combat squad, combat squads are your enemy you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads.

13 armor dreads with a built in hood are concerning to GK players once you reach combat..

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

Meph isnt useful? Really? I'm not even gonna bother arguing this one, as most people either see why Meph works or just think he sucks, and its almost impossible to change their opinion on him.

Good point on the FnP/lack of blast templates comment, its kind of the idea of the army

"you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads."

No, you really don't want that. If you assault large squads you WILL take casualties from those force weapons. You want small squads, so you can wipe most/if not all out with I5 Furious Charging attacks.

Pred spam doesn't work because while yeah, those preds can put down razors fairly well, they still die to Psycannons (mass shots will cause rends, and side shots will tear preds apart), and they have trouble putting down lots of foot marines. Plus Psyflemen WILL kill Preds eventually. A few preds as fire support (as in the above list) could possibly work, as you can still get enough FnP marines to support them, but if you take the full 6 you're left with so few marines that your army will fold.

Furiosos will never reach combat, Lib Dreads might (thanks to wings) but will die to str10 hammers when they do. I'll pass.

@mercer - yeah, tried that but his hood kicked in...

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

@Jabbdo - Yeah, you're right about that one. Multi wound models deserve to have the force weapons activated over hammerhand. Still, the hood is hard to beat...

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

your problem is that you criticize EVERYTHING, even obviously correct things as if you have a face to save all the way to sunday.
You got opinions from many people in here, all of which you promptly threw away since they didnt fit in with your grand ego.
All from why memph isnt good vs GK to who deepstrike is a bad thing to why footslogging and relying on hoods is a unwise choice.

As for getting into melta range to "own" the GK army. Well melta range is just the same as a GK charge range. Feel free to shoot 4 meltaguns and kill 1 - 1.4 paladin(s) and then get the rest of the squad in your face.

To sum it up, the whole thread says one thing and you say the other so naturally you have to be right and everyone else are simply irritating trolls who never give opinions although on page one and forwards I can count several good ones and they keep coming.

Meph isnt useful? Really? I'm not even gonna bother arguing this one, as most people either see why Meph works or just think he sucks, and its almost impossible to change their opinion on him.

Not bother to arguing? Sums yo up perfectly. No wonder people dont want to argue with someone like you. Good arguing is a back and forth thing you know, not someone who stucks up his nose to the sky and yaps about knowing everything there is.

And frankly I doubt very much that you even have the basic grasp of this game when you cant even be arsed to argument against why a character that lacks inv saves and is susceptible to ID shouldnt be taken as a "counter" to an army where every mini on the table can cause ID and ignore armour saves. Gambling on the other guy failing his quickening so that memph can even get his hits in plus using small squads, plus placing them unsupported, plus letting them be assaulted, plus failing his psychic tests...and then claiming this is the best thing vs GK since the invention of bread tells me all I need to know about you so called "skills".



What is bad to use as a BA counter against GK and claim it to be the ultimate counter to them are:
1: ICs that are instantkillable and then somehow rely on them carrying the battle. (dont bother replying to this, everybody already know this to be true, given a few dozen battles so will you)
2: melta rush. (to kill those paladins that very few ever take)
3: Overly strong reliance on hoods working at the right time in the right place. (GKs often have a hood of their own)
4 Strategies centering around libby powers. (see above)
5: Deepstrike and/or weak AV vehicles to deliver assaults. (anti DE is the GK forte)
6: Furious charge. (quickening and/or halbeards spoil the day for BA unless the GK player is a noob)


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On the positive thing...well, I do love your avatar, cant remember I have ever seen a better one on dakka. Weird but just had to say it.

I'm not really sure why its so hard for people to see that mass 3+4++ is hard for anyone, including GK to handle. If you charge 60 BA marines across the board, about 40 are probably going to get to the GK, and when they do a 10 man BA squad with FC and 1 PW kills a 5 man GK squad pretty much every time, halberds or no halberds (and honestly, who takes halberds on strike GKs?), meaning the GK probably lose around 20 marines in one turn of combat.

After that the BA get a little less good if they can't get off the charge, but it is still definetly going to be a hard fight for the GK, who can't kill very many of the BA in shooting, and if the BA can control the charges decently, they have a good chance of killing most of the infantry, and just having to kill vehicles, which for the most part can't do very much damage to them (they'd want to avoid the dreads in combat).

There are a lot of what ifs on either side, but i think it is still reasonable to say that Jump Pack BA and GK are a pretty even match up, and that if neither side messes up on their positioning and movement / charges (as these things are very important in fights like this), it could go either way.

Mephiston will surely not live that long against a GK list, but I'm confused on how people will think they will get the charge on him? Most purifier lists don't play a libby, so you're not shutting down any powers from Meph. They also play MSU which Meph will tear through in a turn. Are you then going to charge the rest of your MSU scoring units at meph in an effort to get 6s to wound? You will most likely get a few with the daemon hammer on I1, but then meph is hitting you back and possibly taking out a second squad.
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.
I play both BA and GK competitively and I think this would be a difficult list to face with most current tourney GK lists.


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But labeling this a GK counter is a bit silly as it doesn't really counter anything that GK does. I feel like the OP list would get roflstomped by a tuned DE or IG list as well.

Dok wrote:
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.

I agree that halbards are generally a non issue if the person isnt purifier or terminator spamming

but, unless my math is fuzzy, a simple strike squad with 2 psycannon and sybolt would put

16 stormbolter shots
10.6 hits
3.5 wounds
.59 unsaved wounds

8 psycannon shots
5.3 hits
3.5 wounds
.5ish unsaved wounds

around 2-ish wounds on average if you get one rend

Yeah its a whole squads worth of shooting and the GK player really has to make his shots count, I really dont see meph making combat in an all-shoot GK list. He /could/ take the vital role of a tyranid-esque "im forcing you do shoot this monster before he eats you" character that spares the army alot of shooting.

I have been playing around with the idea of a bare bones inquisitor with a psyiccolum to take care of librarian/rune priest/ect shenanigans, which do a horrifying 10ish wounds and 2-3 rends on average to a T4 squad with a psyker (without the bolters!)
since GK are so vulnerable to psychic defenses and librarians being good to begin with, I wouldn't be too against the idea of such a unit being on the table in a tourney setting.

A few things:

Lets define a "typical" all-comers competitive GK list, as you might see at a tournament, for example.

Such a list will almost always include most of the following:

Purifiers
Psybolt Razors
Psyflemen
Strike Squads

Choices that I have seen people throwing around here as units that would "destroy my BA list" are just not used very often. Take Librarians for example. Honestly, how many competitive GK lists do you see including a Lib? Paladins? You see them often? Halberds on Strike squad marines? Death cult assassins charging out of Land Raiders with Rad grenade toting Inquisitors rolling with them?

All of these things will apparently destroy my list. And apparently everyone runs them.

You guys see what I'm getting at?

Against typical GK lists, BA jumpers do well, because:

1. Mephiston is a pain in the ass for them (I'll get back to him).
2. FnP makes their shooting ineffective.
3. Melta kills their vehicles dead (Fortitude doesn't matter when your vehicle dies).
4. You beat them in combat on the charge.

Here's something I wrote on Mephiston a while ago. Granted, its a little out of date, as I wrote it before the GK dex came out, but most of the stuff there still makes sense:


"From what I have heard during my wargaming career, there are usually 4 different opinions regarding Mephiston in his current iteration:

1. He's so broken with his t6 and 5 wounds and 6 attacks and str6 OMG

2. Meh, he's not great, too expensive, I'd rather take a lib.

3. He's good for his points.

4. Only n00bs would take him, a pr0 player like me can easily take him down.

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as the naysayers claim? Is he really terribly overcosted?

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Same thing with a daemon prince. For a little over 200pts, you can have a monstrous creature, with 4 wounds, a 3+ save, and t6, AND a 5+ invul (which both meph and the tyrant lack) On the charge, you prince hits 5 times at str6, rerolling hits and wounds (assuming Warptime, for a combat prince.)

Then lets look at mephiston. For 250pts, you get an INFANTRY model, who gets cover saves from having his left toe in cover, has 6 attacks on the charge at str 6, a jump pack, fleet, rerolls hits and has potential str 10, AND has FIVE wounds with a 2+ save at t6, AND, to top it off, has a psychic hood.

What it really boils down to is that Meph IS in fact a hive tyrant, on an infantry base, who costs less than his namesake. He has a potential 24" charge range, possible str10, brings psy defense, and is really easy to hide behind anything really. A tiny wall will give him cover, and a rhino will obscure him entirely. Sure, he will die to concentrated ap fire. But what if you cant see him? Uh-oh. If he manages to contact one of your regular infantry units, guess what happens? They die. What happens when he contacts one of your vehicles? It dies. What happens when he contacts THSS, a TWC unit full of SS, or any good invul save deathstar? He dies. The trick is NOT to end up in combat with such units, which an experienced player can do most of the time.

When you play meph how he is played best, jumping out from behind cover and slaughtering an infantry unit, before jumping to another unit 24" away, you will see what he is capable of. DONT attack units with good invuls/lots of PF's. You WILL die, for no gain whatsoever. Meph is best bullying those infantry units and fire support that the rest of your army has trouble getting to. Sure, psy defense shuts him down pretty effectively, but he is still no slouch in combat. If your opponent didnt bring psy defense... oh golly, this match will be fun.

I find that when you consider Mephiston not as a 250pt character, but as a 150pt upgrade for a librarian, you realise what a bargain he really is. He's Chuck Norris, all for the cheap cheap price of 250pts."

Mephiston works against GK because:

1. He has a hood. Psy defense is great against GK.
2. He kills small GK squads on the charge with ease.
3. GK can't kill him at range in any efficient way.

Sure, if Meph get's charged by any Hammer-toting squad who gets their Force Weapons off, he's dead. But the thing is, if you charge Meph into small GK squads, he WILL kill them before they have time to blink. Played correctly, and utilizing assault squads as blockers, you can block your enemy from charging Meph after he kills that small squad. Then rinse and repeat.

If he DOES get charged, chances are he'll take that squad to hell with him (he'll usually die to the hammer, if they don't get their Force weapon roll off its unlikely they'll kill him at all, so its iffy trying it with only one squad). If Meph kills 2 squads and dies to a third, but kills them at the same time, I'd view that as a fair trade. Don't get me wrong, I EXPECT Meph to die, every game I've ever play him.

Monster post, jheezh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

your problem is that you criticize EVERYTHING, even obviously correct things as if you have a face to save all the way to sunday.
You got opinions from many people in here, all of which you promptly threw away since they didnt fit in with your grand ego.

Of course if I disagree with someone I'll say so, but I'll also provide reasons and arguments to support my views. Please, show me a single criticizm which I haven't responded to explaining how it was invalid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Mephiston will surely not live that long against a GK list, but I'm confused on how people will think they will get the charge on him? Most purifier lists don't play a libby, so you're not shutting down any powers from Meph. They also play MSU which Meph will tear through in a turn. Are you then going to charge the rest of your MSU scoring units at meph in an effort to get 6s to wound? You will most likely get a few with the daemon hammer on I1, but then meph is hitting you back and possibly taking out a second squad.
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.
I play both BA and GK competitively and I think this would be a difficult list to face with most current tourney GK lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But labeling this a GK counter is a bit silly as it doesn't really counter anything that GK does. I feel like the OP list would get roflstomped by a tuned DE or IG list as well.

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Depends what the DE list contains. Venomspam doesn't like FnP. Mass lances dont like mass marines w/ Jumppacks and melta

Depends what IG is running, but in general you should be able to reach them before they kill you off. Again, FnP is your friend (really, the only stuff that ignores your FnP at long range is their vendettas, and their Manticores, and you can minimize losses against them by spreading out so the blasts only hit 3 marines). Depending on mission/deployment and what you're facing exactly DoA is also an option.

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Nope, he's not the only one..count me in as well...

So far I've found that Meph is really useful for hunting GK Dreads, Dreadknights, Strike sqds, Interceptor sqds...well, most GK MSU units. Eventually he'll die, but 90% of the time not before taking out many crucial units from the GK opponents.