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Ultramarinescout wrote:We need to support GW because if you don't they will go Bankrupt that means, NO more cool models, No more tournaments, it will go to Basement days and worse, I'll be out of a job.

My friend Warmachine and his many buddies say hello.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Do you even know the demand of that thing? We sell out of Fine-cast every week at my store!

Anecdotal local evidence is interesting, but it doesn't prove a pattern. Do you work in a GW store or a third party?


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Hold up, your profile says that your occupation is 'lawyer.' Is this some kind of waiting on tables kind of gig? Like a 'resting' actor?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ultramarinescout wrote:With your logic we will be still using Pewter.

Yeah... no.

That's... no. Just no.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Sometimes companies will make mistakes and do things wrong.

A good example of a company making a mistake is GW and Failcost - a product hyped to be the most detailed miniatures ever when really it was just them switching materials because tin is really expensive these days. And then they put the price up.

Ultramarinescout wrote:I myself have seen a lot of difference in models in quality.

Great! That was almost a full sentence.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Just wondering, do you whine at Every Price Rise on anything?

Red herring.

Ultramarinescout wrote:We need to support GW because if you don't they will go Bankrupt that means, NO more cool models, No more tournaments, it will go to Basement days

We don't need to support them. Why should we prop up those that scorn us so? GW going bankrupt would have little effect on most people and I'd celebrate it.

And there are plenty of 'cool models' and 'tournaments' out there that don't involved or require GW at all. I know that you're trained to believe that GW are the hobby, as opposed to simply being one company within the hobby (as large a part of the hobby as they may be) - but there's more out there than GW. One day you'll understand that.

Ultramarinescout wrote:...and worse, I'll be out of a job.

Ah! And the penny drops. You work for GW. The pattern of your posts now makes perfect sense.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Do you even know the demand of that thing? We sell out of Fine-cast every week at my store!

Of course you sell out - you only sell a portion of it and the rest goes back to HQ because of all the miscasts, right?

Who created the hobby? GW did. Did you buy a GW product to get into War-hammer? Yes? Do they make the rules? Yes. Do they make the General Back-Ground? Yes. Games Workshop basically is holding the hobby together with the customers. Look at the end of the Day, if Privateer Press or another insignificant Company rises they will probably make similar mistakes. Don't take me as GW Fan-non worker, I hate Matt Ward as much as the next guy but there is Accept it or leave to the inferior service and Product. Warmachine the game which the rules Contradicts itself and the rules are non-interesting. Would you rather that then the inventor of Wargaming which spawned many Wargaming Products, Movies, Jobs, Hobby Centers, Video-Games, Forums and other things from the Hobby. GW is not the Centre of the Hobby but without it... The Hobby WILL die... One day you'll understand why Games Workshop is big.

"Who created the hobby?"

I don't know. Does anyone know who created miniature gaming? I know it wasn't Games Workshop, but I'm not sure who it was or even when. What is the history of this wonderful hobby we all partake in (like GW, who shall forever remain part of the hobby, and not the hobby, no matter what your company employee's manual says).

As others have said:

If GW crashes and burns (something I truly do hope for - death by hubris is a hilarious thing to watch), then there are plenty of other companies all involved in this 'hobby' to go on with.

And I love the way you phrased 'Privateer Press or another insignificant company'. Wow. That's just amazing.

You truly are a GW employee.

htj wrote:

Ultramarinescout wrote:We need to support GW because if you don't they will go Bankrupt that means, NO more cool models, No more tournaments, it will go to Basement days and worse, I'll be out of a job.

My friend Warmachine and his many buddies say hello.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Do you even know the demand of that thing? We sell out of Fine-cast every week at my store!

Anecdotal local evidence is interesting, but it doesn't prove a pattern. Do you work in a GW store or a third party?


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Hold up, your profile says that your occupation is 'lawyer.' Is this some kind of waiting on tables kind of gig? Like a 'resting' actor?

Third Party Store then GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:"Who created the hobby?"

I don't know. Does anyone know who created miniature gaming? I know it wasn't Games Workshop, but I'm not sure who it was or even when. What is the history of this wonderful hobby we all partake in (like GW, who shall forever remain part of the hobby, and not the hobby, no matter what your company employee's manual says).

As others have said:

If GW crashes and burns (something I truly do hope for - death by hubris is a hilarious thing to watch), then there are plenty of other companies all involved in this 'hobby' to go on with.

And I love the way you phrased 'Privateer Press or another insignificant company'. Wow. That's just amazing.

You truly are a GW employee.

I find it amazing that you make such a Comment but your avatar on your profile is a Commissar a Games Workshop Product. Look, look I use to be a Rebellious Youth just as yourself but someday you will settle down and become a respectful adult. It is the Main Bulk of the Hobby. Would you like 99% of the market to disappear in a click?

"99% of the market", heh.

Also, no-one wants GW to fail.

We want them to stop treating their customers like trash and return to being the excellent company they were 10 years ago, with affordable high-quality multi-part plastic figures, an excellent attitude towards their customers, multiple specialist games, a brilliant white dwarf magazine and none of the corporate bloat that they have developed over that period of time.

As for the commissar in the guy's avatar, what you have to understand is - the people that don't like GW or play GW games don't complain about GW, they simply do not care what it does.

It's only the people who play the games and like the setting/ models who do complain, because they have a reason to.

I really don't get what you are trying to say with this Rebellious Youth, and Respectful Adult thing, either... that has nothing to do with anything.

99% of the market? GW really has you brain-washed about "The Hobby" don't they.

99%... HA! What a riot.

I love it when a post like this apperars! Games Workshop needs to get rid of their management who obviously have no interest in the game or the players, they badly need gamers in charge to sort itself out. As for your claims that in a years time Failcast will have all problems ironed out, that may be true(I doubt it!) but lo and behold there will be yet another price hike to contend with and oh look! Even more players leaving the sinking ship. They are doing more than we could to destroy the 'hobby'.
Note also; It is never a good idea to vigorously defend Games Workshop and then admit you work for them. It's like sticking your head in a lion's mouth and flicking a certain part of his anatomy with a wet towel.

Ultramarinescout wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ultramarinescout wrote:With your logic we will be still using Pewter.

Yeah... no.

That's... no. Just no.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Sometimes companies will make mistakes and do things wrong.

A good example of a company making a mistake is GW and Failcost - a product hyped to be the most detailed miniatures ever when really it was just them switching materials because tin is really expensive these days. And then they put the price up.

Ultramarinescout wrote:I myself have seen a lot of difference in models in quality.

Great! That was almost a full sentence.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Just wondering, do you whine at Every Price Rise on anything?

Red herring.

Ultramarinescout wrote:We need to support GW because if you don't they will go Bankrupt that means, NO more cool models, No more tournaments, it will go to Basement days

We don't need to support them. Why should we prop up those that scorn us so? GW going bankrupt would have little effect on most people and I'd celebrate it.

And there are plenty of 'cool models' and 'tournaments' out there that don't involved or require GW at all. I know that you're trained to believe that GW are the hobby, as opposed to simply being one company within the hobby (as large a part of the hobby as they may be) - but there's more out there than GW. One day you'll understand that.

Ultramarinescout wrote:...and worse, I'll be out of a job.

Ah! And the penny drops. You work for GW. The pattern of your posts now makes perfect sense.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Do you even know the demand of that thing? We sell out of Fine-cast every week at my store!

Of course you sell out - you only sell a portion of it and the rest goes back to HQ because of all the miscasts, right?

Who created the hobby? GW did. Did you buy a GW product to get into War-hammer? Yes? Do they make the rules? Yes. Do they make the General Back-Ground? Yes. Games Workshop basically is holding the hobby together with the customers. Look at the end of the Day, if Privateer Press or another insignificant Company rises they will probably make similar mistakes. Don't take me as GW Fan-non worker, I hate Matt Ward as much as the next guy but there is Accept it or leave to the inferior service and Product. Warmachine the game which the rules Contradicts itself and the rules are non-interesting. Would you rather that then the inventor of Wargaming which spawned many Wargaming Products, Movies, Jobs, Hobby Centers, Video-Games, Forums and other things from the Hobby. GW is not the Centre of the Hobby but without it... The Hobby WILL die... One day you'll understand why Games Workshop is big.

HOLY !@#$, BATMAN!!!!



I want whatever your smoking there. You have so much failure here that you ARE the fail king.


I don't even know where to begin on how wrong you are, and your lack of an argument here is just.... awful.


And with gak like this-

" GW is not the Centre of the Hobby but without it... The Hobby WILL die... One day you'll understand why Games Workshop is big."

???


THIS is called a WTF moment.


I don't even know how to respond to that sort of fail.

How do you come to the conclusion that PP is an inferior product?

Grot 6 wrote:

How do you come to the conclusion that PP is an inferior product?

Well, duh. They're not GW!

I mean, they have a clear and balanced ruleset! They use even use metal figures! Who does that any more?

infinite_array wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:

How do you come to the conclusion that PP is an inferior product?

Well, duh. They're not GW!

I mean, they have a clear and balanced ruleset! They use even use metal figures! Who does that any more?

HOW DARE THEY!

Ultramarinescout wrote:
I find it amazing that you make such a Comment but your avatar on your profile is a Commissar a Games Workshop Product. Look, look I use to be a Rebellious Youth just as yourself but someday you will settle down and become a respectful adult. It is the Main Bulk of the Hobby. Would you like 99% of the market to disappear in a click?

... I...wow...

How in the name of all that is rational have you managed to equate " Respectful Adult" to the acceptance of inferior products and short sighted/ "grab the cash..damn the customer." Business practices..?

...The mind simply boggles..

Ultramarinescout wrote: Would you like 99% of the market to disappear in a click?

GW are the single biggest table-top gaming company but they are nowhere near that big. For example, total revenue for trading card games is approx 10x GW's revenue ($2B).

Ultramarinescout wrote:Who created the hobby? GW did. Did you buy a GW product to get into War-hammer? Yes? Do they make the rules? Yes. Do they make the General Back-Ground? Yes. Games Workshop basically is holding the hobby together with the customers.

You honestly think that there was no wargaming before GW? I suggest you go and read Little Wars by HG Wells, a book about tabletop wargaming written in 1913. Are you even aware that there are lots of gaming systems which have nothing to do with GW?

I notice that you still haven't commented on why you list your occupation as lawyer when you actually work in a game store.

Um if GW goes out of business someone will pick up the IP. Thats how things work. Things dont just dissapear cause a company goes out of business especially not Warhammer. GW IP is easily the most popular wargame out there and if they go bankrupt and go out of business its their fault for bad business decisions. There is huge amounts of demand for GW products so only GW would be to blame if business goes sour. If that happens someone will snatch it up in a heartbeat and maybe handle the IP better than GW has.

Scott-S6 wrote:I notice that you still haven't commented on why you list your occupation as lawyer when you actually work in a game store.

Maybe he's a rules lawyer.

I spent a lot of time online with GW apologist trolls like Ultramarinescout when 3rd Ed. came out with yet another price hike and a new set of rules that required more models to fill the same points cost. On top of that hefty price hike and sudden necessity for new models the rules for 3rd were a complete trainwreck and had to be constantly amended via online FAQ, WD, and supplementary Codices. If they spent as much time playtesting the new ed as they did trolling online and defending it, maybe it would not have sucked so badly. Fast forward from 3rd Ed 1998 to Failcast 2011 and the same applies. Parallel universe, or just lockstep practice by a publicly traded company? You decide. Bottom line for me was that the release of 3rd Ed and the GW attitude towards the people that made them the company they are (were) is why I stopped playing 40k for 11 years.

Specifically for Ultramarinescout, here are some facts:

- GW did not invent wargaming.

- GW does not own the hobby.

- The hobby will continue on with or without GW.

Even if GW goes down in flames, the majority of the games will continue on. TSR is long dead yet D&D thrives. Grenadier Miniatures has been gone for longer than I can remember but their entire miniature line is still available through another company. The existence of GW is not the make or break of the hobby. The wargame hobby universe is a big place and whatever happens they will not be missed.

And neither will be apologist trolls.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:On top of that hefty price hike and sudden necessity for new models the rules for 3rd were a complete trainwreck and had to be constantly amended via online FAQ, WD, and supplementary Codices.

3rd edition had it's problems but it was a massive improvement over 2nd edition where there was essentially no movement and characters did 90% of the fighting.


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Slipstream wrote:they badly need gamers in charge to sort itself out

When the company was run by a guy who's primary interest was in making miniatures they still made plenty of bad decisions. At least the current management acknowledges that the game and the minis are equally important.

They need a management that is interested in the long/medium-term rather than the short-term. What's good for the business in the long-run is good for gamers also.

Scott-S6 wrote:3rd edition had it's problems but it was a massive improvement over 2nd edition where there was essentially no movement and characters did 90% of the fighting.

Based on my personal experience I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that and send a PM.

keisukekun wrote:If that happens someone will snatch it up in a heartbeat and maybe handle the IP better than GW has.

Unless Hasbro buys them out...

Scott-S6 wrote:At least the current management acknowledges that the game and the minis are equally important.

lol, I'm not so sure. The rules have a long way to go yet. There's still a lot of older armies desperate for updates and a pretty obvious bias against anything not in power armor.

insaniak wrote:Cost is the reason.

Metal models are cast in vulcanised rubber moulds, which are relatively cheap and easy to make.

The new Finecast models use the same original Master models as the metals, with just a little re-jiggering to put them on sprues, and are cast in silicon moulds which are likewise relatively cheap and easy to make.

GW's plastics use a pressure-injection system, and are cast in stainless steel moulds that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars to make. Because steel moulds don't flex, models need to be specifically sculpted for this sort of casting, and so most of the metals would have been unsuitable as is... they would have had to resculpt most (if not all) of the original metals to produce them in plastic.

While the cost of producing injection moulds is coming down, if they can iron out the kinks in Finecast, I can actually see them going the other way, and eventually replacing the plastics with finecast as well... It's less of a big, scary investment for a new kit.

What he said:
Plastic = High starting cost (including resculpts), low production cost.
Finecast = Low starting cost, relatively low production cost.

So we will see Plastic only with models that potentially sell in high volumes. That will not include characters for a long time.
On the other side, I believe that in the long run we will see 1-2 HQs for all races, the rest in Finecast. Why? Because at the moment it is very hard to buy a legal army for most fractions in a store. And Finecast has too many issues with unexperienced modellers like the target customer group, the teens. And small plastic moulds are getting cheaper.

Ultramarinescout wrote:Who created the hobby? GW did. Did you buy a GW product to get into War-hammer?

Tin soldiers are a major toy for boys for about 200 years, as this fairy tale from 1838 (The Brave Tin Soldier http://hca.gilead.org.il/tin_sold.html ) proves that uses the common knowledge of this toy. They were first mass produced in the 1730s ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_soldier ) in Germany, gaining popularity during the reign of Frederic the Great.

And I bought my first GW tin soldiers when GW produced them for use in roleplay games. They started making their first tabletop some years later.

If you are not familiar with a topic, it is always good to shut the ... erm ... remain silent

Sidstyler wrote:

keisukekun wrote:If that happens someone will snatch it up in a heartbeat and maybe handle the IP better than GW has.

Unless Hasbro buys them out...

Lol or wizkids. Come on who here WOULDNT love clix 40k [/sarcasm]

Personally, I think credit for the wargaming hobby should go to two people:

1. Prussia (ok, not a person, but still), with the Kriegspiel wargame in 1811.

2. H.G. Wells, with his rules set, Little Wars, in 1913 .

And, of course, the idea of pushing little soldiers around to help simulate war has been around much longer than that. But don't try to push that GW 'invented' the hobby. They may be one of the more recognizable faces of wargaming, but the company's disappearance from wargaming wouldn't have that big of an affect.

I've said it before in other threads, and I'll say it here - gamers would treat Warhammer 40k and Fantasy much like other games that GW has abandoned over the years. We would see net-based version of rules and army lists.

insaniak wrote:Cost is the reason.
GW's plastics use a pressure-injection system, and are cast in stainless steel moulds that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars to make. Because steel moulds don't flex, models need to be specifically sculpted for this sort of casting, and so most of the metals would have been unsuitable as is... they would have had to resculpt most (if not all) of the original metals to produce them in plastic.

QFT. I work in plastic injection molding. Mold costs can be huge. It takes quite a volume to recoup the cost. Now GW does have the ability to afford it, and it wouldnt surprise me to see future stuff, and maybe resuclpts of some of the more popular current stuff, done in plastic.

Another issue with the molds...time. They can take weeks or even months to make. From concept sculpt to ready to use mold it can be quite a long process.

Sidstyler wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:At least the current management acknowledges that the game and the minis are equally important.

lol, I'm not so sure. The rules have a long way to go yet. There's still a lot of older armies desperate for updates and a pretty obvious bias against anything not in power armor.

They have stated this outright in the financial reports. Following through is a different thing but it's better than the previous stance of "we're a miniatures company, the games are just a side-line".

OK, as a brand new wargamer, starting with 40k, let me throw my opinion into the ring.


Coming from Magic the Gathering (Wizards) to warhammer 40k (GW, obviously), GW handle thier Business very badly. If i look at what wizards was doing, they took input from the Playerbase to heart. if they said something was ridiculously overpowered? it got fixed. If the playerbase was Crying that a certain card was getting expensive on the singles market, Wizards (not all the time) attempted to fix it (most often with reprinting). Now, im not saying wizards is perfect, but they are certainly a heck of a lot better than GW in handling PR and their playerbase.

My point is, GW need to learn how to handle their playerbase. Looking at it, It's as if GW are not a company that listens to the people who buy their product, but a kid sticking their fingers in their ears going "lalalala". Wizards made their share of mistakes too (anyone here know about Tarmogoyf? ) but they listened and learned from them.(edit: at least, it appears they did)

As for GW massive over-stating of what finecast is, That's marketing for you. Wizards do the same with their products. If you read the little booklet that comes with a preconstructed deck, you could swear the deck farts diamonds and you could beat the best decks in the world with it.


There, that is my 2 cents. do with it what you will

I want Fantasy Flight Games to buy them out. They work closely together already (Space Hulk card game, Warhammer Invasion, Horus Herasy...etc etc.). Let's see them take the reigns of GW and fix things. FFG isn't too expensive and I think they'd do a good job. If Hasbro takes over, I'm done. I used to be a huge fan of collecting Marvel Legends...then Hasbro took over and killed the figures. I don't buy anymore. Hasbro failed me then, Magic sucks now (which they control), I heard 4th ed D&D sucks, and I have no faith in Hasbro as a company. Hasbro would destroy warhammer worse than GW has. And, while we're on the subject, I still love GW's customer service-foot was missing from my cockatrice, had a replacement sent out the very next morning. It worked out pretty well. They've always left me happy. Just the big decision makers suck there

Sidstyler wrote:

keisukekun wrote:If that happens someone will snatch it up in a heartbeat and maybe handle the IP better than GW has.

Unless Hasbro buys them out...

Scott-S6 wrote:At least the current management acknowledges that the game and the minis are equally important.

lol, I'm not so sure. The rules have a long way to go yet. There's still a lot of older armies desperate for updates and a pretty obvious bias against anything not in power armor.

Hell No!!! IF Hasbro bought out GW... I would do... not so nice things to their CEO. Also, I don't think they are non-bias Dark Eldar and Nids are great to play. That's my take anyway.


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Look, Look I dislike GW but I Like the game and it wouldn't feel the same if they were bought by some other company. Fantasy FLight is good but I payed $120 for a Board Game with models that are flismy and bend. I don't like either options, I think Dakka should buy it out if they can. Or better still H.B.M.C. could run it and infinite_array could help make rules.

Also, I don't think they are non-bias

So you think they are biased?

Tyranids suck now, they're a mono-build army. GW wasn't too generous with the codex in the first place, making a lot of eyebrow-raising decisions and creating so much competition in the Elites slot, but it wasn't really unplayable...until the FAQ came out and it just hammered them into the dirt something terrible, going against every precedent set in other FAQs, nothing being ruled in their favor, simply because they're xenos. And to add insult to injury, they're still waiting for their second wave.

Dark Eldar are okay, for now. With 6th edition supposedly looming on the horizon I'm not that confident that DE will continue to be playable for much longer. I've got nothing to base that on obviously, but I could see GW letting them be competitive for a year, making sure they make their money back from that investment, and then putting them down again with the new rulebook so people don't forget that 40k is all about the Spess Mahreenz.

But that's my opinion and by no means am I saying no one should play Tyranids or DE. The Tyranid codex could have been better though, and I really don't know what GW was thinking when they wrote the codex/FAQ.

Sidstyler wrote:

Also, I don't think they are non-bias

So you think they are biased?

Tyranids suck now, they're a mono-build army. GW wasn't too generous with the codex in the first place, making a lot of eyebrow-raising decisions and creating so much competition in the Elites slot, but it wasn't really unplayable...until the FAQ came out and it just hammered them into the dirt something terrible, going against every precedent set in other FAQs, nothing being ruled in their favor, simply because they're xenos. And to add insult to injury, they're still waiting for their second wave.

Dark Eldar are okay, for now. With 6th edition supposedly looming on the horizon I'm not that confident that DE will continue to be playable for much longer. I've got nothing to base that on obviously, but I could see GW letting them be competitive for a year, making sure they make their money back from that investment, and then putting them down again with the new rulebook so people don't forget that 40k is all about the Spess Mahreenz.

But that's my opinion and by no means am I saying no one should play Tyranids or DE. The Tyranid codex could have been better though, and I really don't know what GW was thinking when they wrote the codex/FAQ.

Don't blame GW, Blame Matt Ward... If you've seen videos from Minwargaming. Matt's Tyranids win most of games with the current book. Necrons are still competitive. I dislike Matt Ward and his ruining of the fluff but I don't want them to go bankrupt becuase that's all I play. I dislike Matt Ward's Grey Knight book the most though...

infinite_array wrote:And, of course, the idea of pushing little soldiers around to help simulate war has been around much longer than that. But don't try to push that GW 'invented' the hobby. They may be one of the more recognizable faces of wargaming, but the company's disappearance from wargaming wouldn't have that big of an affect.

I would have to disagree... GW shutting down suddenly in the near future would have profound consequences (good and bad) for the war-gaming hobby. At the very least, it would leave a sudden void that other companies like PP and Battlefront would be rushing to fill. FLGS would be in an interesting position; on one hand, they would face less competition from GW stores, but on the other they would also be losing a major source of revenue since 40k and WHFB are so popular. Long-term, I think there would be a chance of the overall gaming population dropping, as I do believe that GW's stores pull in many new (younger) players and get them started in the hobby. I'm not saying that I agree with everything GW does, but as much as you or I may dislike their business practices it doesn't change the fact that they are the biggest fish in the relatively small pond that is miniatures wargaming (at least for now ).

Ruckdog wrote:

infinite_array wrote:And, of course, the idea of pushing little soldiers around to help simulate war has been around much longer than that. But don't try to push that GW 'invented' the hobby. They may be one of the more recognizable faces of wargaming, but the company's disappearance from wargaming wouldn't have that big of an affect.

I would have to disagree... GW shutting down suddenly in the near future would have profound consequences (good and bad) for the war-gaming hobby. At the very least, it would leave a sudden void that other companies like PP and Battlefront would be rushing to fill. FLGS would be in an interesting position; on one hand, they would face less competition from GW stores, but on the other they would also be losing a major source of revenue since 40k and WHFB are so popular. Long-term, I think there would be a chance of the overall gaming population dropping, as I do believe that GW's stores pull in many new (younger) players and get them started in the hobby. I'm not saying that I agree with everything GW does, but as much as you or I may dislike their business practices it doesn't change the fact that they are the biggest fish in the relatively small pond that is miniatures wargaming (at least for now ).

Like I said before even if GW falls there will still be a huge demand for GW products and whoever picks up the rights will be sure to do their best to keep up support. Whether the new company is better or worse than GW is another matter. Theres plenty of examples of this. Plenty of car companies have folded because of bad business decisions and the company just changes hands and someone tries its luck again.