Wargaming - are we in a new golden age?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**kenshin620**

Golden ages are a bit hard to describe imo, mainly becuase golden age is a term you put in the past such as the Golden Age of comics, the Golden Age of empires, and well the Golden Age of GW

. But I must saw this, with or without GW there is a new rise in wargaming, from plastics to rules that arent from "x company thats going to fail in a year". Not to mention the amount of independent and dedicated hobbyists making bitz and kits for people across the globe. Simply looking at a months worth of TMP or Tabletop gaming news can show just how much activity there is

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

That is correct Kanners
HLJ is toystore heaven but don't make their own products afaik

Squadron do actually make some products or at least put there name on labels
(I assume that Squadron fillers, tools, books and aftermarket bits are of the same group that distributes)

**Kilkrazy**

Ruckdog wrote:Could it also be possible that the overall quality of the available games has risen? I'm not talking in terms of sculpts or rulese playability necessarily, but rather in terms of the volume of available sculpts and the "production value" of the game and its supporting documentation. For example, the presentation of games such as Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars is heads and shoulders above similar niche games, from what I've seen of older products at stores (a couple of local stores have stocks going back to the late 1980's!). Many of these older games use black and white books that look like they were photocopied at the library...

That's true. The cost of the higher production values has been higher cost, of course.

I look at my DBA rulebook containing the whole system plus all the army lists, which cost £3 and fits into about 36 pages of A5. I compare it with Kampfgruppe Normandie which contains only the rules and lists for the Normandy Campaign, costs £48 and is an inch thick A4 hardback.

As an old timer I'm not sure all the new books need to be quite so large, heavily illustrated and expensive.

**Kanluwen**

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That is correct Kanners
HLJ is toystore heaven but don't make their own products afaik

Squadron do actually make some products or at least put there name on labels
(I assume that Squadron fillers, tools, books and aftermarket bits are of the same group that distributes)

Squadron books are the only thing that I'm aware of that are 'manufactured' in-house by Squadron Signal Publications.

The filler, tools, and aftermarket bits are usually produced by another company and just rebranded.

**Cryonicleech**

Eh, despite not ever being around for it, the age of Rogue Trader, Ral Partha and such will always feel like the golden age to me.

**Augustus**

nkelsch wrote:Totally disagree. 1998-2003 made the current gaming era look like a pile of poop.

*GW was a fun place to game
*FLGS required fully painted armies everywhere
*Pokemon card games were not profitable as wargaming so everywhere you went wargamers got the entire store all day, every day.
*Figures were cheap.
*GW GTs were awesome.
*GW had RTTs which were well done.
*GW outriders shared the hobby
*I could pick my own metal bitz by weight
*Troll magazine allowed every plastic sprue and metal bit to be bought individually
*GW battlewagon driving around!
*Internet discunters roamed free and unobstructed with being allowed to sell GW on the net
*People sculpted custom figures for the sake of making a unique army, not to make a quick buck and not immediatly sell everything so no armies are unique.
*WD did not suck
*Chapter approved expanded the game monthly and gave us niche chapters like Kroot Mercs and feral orks. *Forgeworld was just starting and gave us cheap models.
*World-wide campaigns where games impacted an evolving storyline and were fun to play in

No... today is not a golden age... it is a shadow of its former self. The only thing that is 'better' now is the growth of the independent tourney circuit. I find the quality of casual gaming in FLGS abysmal compared to what it was due to the growth of alternative games like pokemon which get higher billing due to the customers buying product and the entitlement and lazyness of gamers out there who don't pay where you play. I also don't find 'the internets' as much of a benifit or growth as we had Portent.NET which was everything Dakka is... I actually find the internet as a whole has de-evolved in quality and the way people act since then so I would say the current wargaming 'internet' is worse off than it was 10 years ago.

When I had 5-6 FLGS and GW Battle Bunker all thriving 7 days a week, that was the Golden Age.

I completely agree! I remember I use to travel to 3+ GW run GT events and was proud to have a spot in the Hall of Heroes!

But then I also remember arcades, and stores that sold records, tapes, books and movies, and breaking news at conventions and friends that weren't just avatar images and clicked likes.

The internet has ruined everything.

**oni**

HAHA... Sure... The 'golden era' of prohibitive pricing and poor quality.

**RatBot**

oni wrote:HAHA... Sure... The 'golden era' of prohibitive pricing and poor quality.

Are you talking about GW? I'd like to remind you that GW is in no way, shape, or form, the be-all end-all of wargaming.

**NAVARRO**

Both past and present have pros and cons and I have a hard time understanding people claiming the past was all good and present is all bad and vice versa. It doesnt compute

Golden age today? hummm nope, just a different age of gaming...

**theHandofGork**

While GW is not my main gaming focus at this point in my life I think the "golden age" referred to by OP does, in some way, relate back to GW. Think of it this way:

Battlefront (FOW)- run by ex-GW staff
Warlord Games- run by ex-GW staff
Mantic- run by ex-GW staff
Perry Bros- current GW designers
Wargames Factory- now run by an ex-GW staff
PP- had Mike McVey early on

GW's contribution to the gaming world isn't just disillusioned newbs, it's also experienced game and model designers who go on to form and/or run other companies.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Interesting
how many of those guys were with GW in the period now missed by some of the posters on this thread?

**Augustus**

ALL of them.

**Kilkrazy**

Are you talking about GW?

I'd like to remind you that GW is in no way, shape, or form, the bell end of wargaming.

**RatBot**

Kilkrazy wrote:Are you talking about GW?

I'd like to remind you that GW is in no way, shape, or form, the bell end of wargaming.

**H.B.M.C.**

So much focus in here on what role GW plays in whether or not we've in a Golden Age. Miniature Wargaming was around before GW, it will be around after GW. Untether yourself from this nightmare HHHobby marketing construct. It's unhealthy.

Anyway, I think that miniature producing technology may not have put us into a 'golden age', but it is certainly pointing us in that direction. 3D printing and rapid prototyping is becoming not a thing you hear about in the odd 'technology' section at the end of the news, but something that people are doing small scale on their own. It is far more easy to get something 'printed' these days than in the past, and this has created an explosion of small companies all clamouring for your $$$.

GW's plastic technology remains superior to just about everyone - Tamiya and other companies may have been doing it longer, and GW is always capable of producing complete stinkers, but just look at the DE release. Just look at the single-frame character models for Storm of Chaos. There's no other group doing what they can do at the scale that they can do. But, in a true case of 'nice legs, shame about the face', GW's models is about the only thing it has going for it. Everything else is horsegak.

But as we move forward, these technologies are going to become more and more common. When that happens most of these small companies will have long since disappeared, but we’ll be left with a market that is full of choice and of a much higher quality than the past 20 years.

Kilkrazy wrote:As an old timer I'm not sure all the new books need to be quite so large, heavily illustrated and expensive.

*looks at collection of 40K RPG books*

But they are ever so pretty!

**Noisy_Marine**

We can't be in a wargaming golden age.

Because we are not playing with holographic miniatures on laser tables. When that happens, you'll KNOW it's the golden age.

**AvatarForm**

Noisy_Marine wrote:We can't be in a wargaming golden age.

Because we are not playing with holographic miniatures on laser tables. When that happens, you'll KNOW it's the golden age.

I offer to disagree.

The above may be considered a "Golden Age" by gamers, but not by hobbyists.

When you can download and customise your own models for particular game systems, the heart will be gone from the hobby.

Building, converting, painting and basing models is most of the fun for myself. The fact that I can also use these models in games systems of their own is a bonus.

Oh, and the posters in this thread who believe GW to be the centre of the universe are just pure comedy gold...

You stay off my ignore list because you provide many hours of rolling on the floor at some of the idiocy you have been posting.

**infinite_array**

You know, instead of it being a 'Golden Age of Wargaming', why not call it a 'Wargaming Renaissance'?

A 'Golden Age' is a time that people look back upon with certain nostalgia. Now, a Renaissance denotes that entirely new games are coming to the fore, and that the hobby is sort of reinventing itself. Or, at least, is getting a fresh new start with the appearance of so many new games.

**Bakerofish**

all I'm saying is I'm glad I waited a bit before getting into the hobby

.

**H.B.M.C.**

AvatarForm wrote:When you can download and customise your own models for particular game systems, the heart will be gone from the hobby.

When you can download new units and print them on a 3D printer... then things will be different.

**AvatarForm**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
AvatarForm wrote:When you can download and customise your own models for particular game systems, the heart will be gone from the hobby.

When you can download new units and print them on a 3D printer... then things will be different.

However, if you use any printer but the GW-re-branded generic, then White Knights will kick down your door, punch your children in the face and eat your pets!

**Howard A Treesong**

So many games have come and gone in the last few years, big ones like Starship Troopers or Warzone before that, which was pretty big.

The difference now is that plastic casting is achievable for so many more companies. It used to be the case that smaller companies produced everything in metal, but now the market is full of plastic stuff significantly cheaper than Games Workshop but at comparable quality. There are people like Mantic, Warlord Games, Immortal Miniature or Perry Miniatures to name a few that just come to mind.

**nkelsch**

AvatarForm wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
AvatarForm wrote:When you can download and customise your own models for particular game systems, the heart will be gone from the hobby.

When you can download new units and print them on a 3D printer... then things will be different.

However, if you use any printer but the GW-re-branded generic, then White Knights will kick down your door, punch your children in the face and eat your pets!

I do not look forward to the rampant copyright infringement being as easy as downloading a song off the internet for miniatures. The wargaming community already suffers from a selfish entitled attitude, the last thing they need is an easier way to hurt FLGS and Mini manufacturers by stealing everything needed to wargame.

**Kilkrazy**

I have a feeling desktop 3D printers will never be as widespread and cheap as people currently imagine.

It's obviously fantastic for prototyping new designs of small items or scaled down models. It's not a technology with much application in people's daily lives, though, either at home or in the office or most workshops.

Fax machines and scanner/printers are cheap because millions of them are produced for offices and this makes them cheap for homes too.

Look at it this way. Except for the aspect of downloading a 3D file from your computer, a 3D printer is just a 21st century type of spin casting machine. How many people have one of those at home? Or a record cutting machine, to use a more plasticky example?

What will happen, I think, is that if the speed of production and quality of resin can be made good enough, a lot of small companies (Heresy, Bitspudlo, Hasslefree) who currently use spincast metal and/or poured resin, might install 3D printers and offer print on demand as a service to private individuals. That way the capital investment cost will be spread across many more users. It will also allow companies to control the use of pirate files.

In the far future, we will probably all have “The Diamond Age” style nanotechnology printers at home but that’s just SF at the moment.

**Ruckdog**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Ruckdog wrote:Could it also be possible that the overall quality of the available games has risen? I'm not talking in terms of sculpts or rulese playability necessarily, but rather in terms of the volume of available sculpts and the "production value" of the game and its supporting documentation. For example, the presentation of games such as Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars is heads and shoulders above similar niche games, from what I've seen of older products at stores (a couple of local stores have stocks going back to the late 1980's!). Many of these older games use black and white books that look like they were photocopied at the library...

That's true. The cost of the higher production values has been higher cost, of course.

I look at my DBA rulebook containing the whole system plus all the army lists, which cost £3 and fits into about 36 pages of A5. I compare it with Kampfgruppe Normandie which contains only the rules and lists for the Normandy Campaign, costs £48 and is an inch thick A4 hardback.

As an old timer I'm not sure all the new books need to be quite so large, heavily illustrated and expensive.

That's a good point, certianly it is a double-edged sword. Unfortunately, it seems like now that the bar has been set so high by companys like PP, there will be no going back to simpler styles. Heck, even GW is now releasing its WHFB army books in hardback and full color (IMO it's only a matter of time before 40k codexs start coming like this). I have found that one benefit of these higher production values is that they tend to increase the "curb appeal" of a game; as Kanluwen mentioned, it can be very difficult to get gamers interested in new games, but having a shiney full color rulebook and lots of neat minis to show them does help

.

**Inquisitor Hexx**

I'm not sure if I'd call it a golden age per se, but it's certainly more prevalent and wide spread than when I first got into the hobby.

Back then all the game and hobby shops in my area that even stocked minis had only small sections of their store devoted to them. Maybe a four or five foot section of wall for blisters with some box sets beneath them. I remember that being further split by companies - GW and Marauder, Dungeons and Dragons, and Battletech all competing for valuable wall space in that little section. The only magazine I ever recall seeing for mini gamers was White Dwarf and you'd often have to go to a few stores hoping someone got the newest issue in.

Now I go to the same stores and more than 80% of their floor and wall space is dedicated to minis and rules and magazines and scenery and.... A quick search on the internet can result in 100s of pages of sculptors, manufacturers, retail stores, information sites, alternate rules, etc. Obviously the industry is much bigger now or stores wouldn't be dedicating so much real estate to it. That's why I don't agree that it's about the same, we're just more aware of it. Around where I live and grew up we were very aware of it, it just wasn't there to be found. Now it's literally taken over hobby shops and game stores!

**Kilkrazy**

Just out of interest, is that a Finecast Aquila in your sig?

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Except that it is an extra cost on the startup, Hexx.
And am not sure that pretty colour books will make a lot of difference to some.

Having said that it prolly will be the trend now.
The Anima Tactics rulebook is gorgeous imho
but note that they supply a quick start booklet with the starter boxes and provide PDF online.
Yes GW supply starter books but you still need to fork out 20 odd quid per army book to take the game forward.

Which does raise a question, have downloadable QS rules and game info PDF's make a difference? It must help if you can suck it and see before lashing out the cash?

**Kilkrazy**

There are two aspects to rulebooks, one is expense and the other is ease of portage.

Big hardback rulebook with lots of colour illos are more expensive and harder to carry around.

I wish more companies would copy the GW idea of providing a mini rulebook as an alternative to the version for new players.

**marielle**

That's true. The cost of the higher production values has been higher cost, of course.

I look at my DBA rulebook containing the whole system plus all the army lists, which cost £3 and fits into about 36 pages of A5. I compare it with Kampfgruppe Normandie which contains only the rules and lists for the Normandy Campaign, costs £48 and is an inch thick A4 hardback.

As an old timer I'm not sure all the new books need to be quite so large, heavily illustrated and expensive.

Indeed but comparing DBA with Kampgruppe Normandie is just exposing your GW prejudice.

Had you compared it to Fields of Glory or Hail Ceasar you could have made the exact same point, with more relevance.