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Look at the rear of the MPLC photo I looked.

Compare it to the "notacannon" picture. The "notcannon" picture has two power cells which you're identifying as 'connectors' occupying two slots that on the illustration are empty.

Aye, but what does that change about this weapons description specifically stating it requires a separate power source, and that this is the reason for it being operated by two or more people (-> one carrying the weapon, one the battery)?

You know, this argument is especially funny because I don't even recognize the RPG as a reliable source of fluff myself - I never thought I'd actually use it as evidence ever since the day of my "epiphany" regarding how GW defines its canon.

A "separate power source" doesn't actually preclude it from being the MPLC, Lyn.

Lasguns use a "separate power source" in the form of a power pack. Power packs=separate from the main gun. Integral power source=it runs off a selfperpetuating piece.

You realize that GW has produced models of Guardsmen carrying laspacks for their lascannons, right?

Kanluwen wrote:A "separate power source" doesn't actually preclude it from being the MPLC, Lyn.
Lasguns use a "separate power source" in the form of a power pack. Power packs=separate from the main gun. Integral power source=it runs off a selfperpetuating piece.

Oh come on. Now you're really reaching.

By that logic, a bolt weapon uses a separate source of ammunition. Really now? Why would one even point that out for this one gun if it applies to every las weapon in existence anyways, and that this is the reason for why they're used by teams instead of a single guy?

Melissia wrote:You realize that GW has produced models of Guardsmen carrying laspacks for their lascannons, right?

The big ones? Of course, that's how the teams work.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:A "separate power source" doesn't actually preclude it from being the MPLC, Lyn.
Lasguns use a "separate power source" in the form of a power pack. Power packs=separate from the main gun. Integral power source=it runs off a selfperpetuating piece.

Oh come on. Now you're really reaching.

By that logic, a bolt weapon uses a separate source of ammunition. Really now? Why would one even point that out for this one gun if it applies to every las weapon in existence anyways, and that this is the reason for why they're used by teams instead of a single guy?

By the by, next time don't use Rogue Trader's MPLC image to represent the Dark Heresy one.

Lynata wrote:The big ones? Of course, that's how the teams work.

Yes. so why would a lighter lascannon not itself be able to use a power pack like that, that's smaller to fit it being a lighter lascannon?

Oh wait it wouldn't.


Relic's official response to this little fiasco:

Noun wrote:Anyway since this discussion has gone on super long and we've not solved anything other than the fact that we like arguing, I'm going to close it. All elements of the game were approved by GamesWorkshop who are serious about every aspect of canon being respected. I'm not going to get drawn into a fluff argument, but every weapon in the game went through an approval process and got the GW stamp of approval.

Kanluwen wrote:By the by, next time don't use Rogue Trader's MPLC image to represent the Dark Heresy one.

It's the same weapon. Same name, same stats, same description.

To be honest, I didn't even know it was from RT - I just grabbed it from google because it says exactly the same as in the DH book and I cannot upload pictures from inside the office.

Melissia wrote:Yes. so why would a lighter lascannon not itself be able to use a power pack like that, that's smaller to fit it being a lighter lascannon? Oh wait it wouldn't.

That's the thing, though - there's no lighter lascannon in the RPG, it describes the one used by IG Heavy Weapons Teams.

I'm not saying there could not be such a thing as a "lighter lascannon", mind you - but that would be an invention by the Space Marine computer game developers and not something that has shown up before as was claimed here.

Melissia wrote:Relic's official response to this little fiasco: [...]

Heh, is that the same approval process they're giving the BL novels?

Lynata wrote:That's the thing, though - there's no lighter lascannon in the RPG, it describes the one used by IG Heavy Weapons Teams.

They're OFTEN used by teams, but that's merely because the power packs are quite large and heavy, and either cannot be recharged or take so long as to be useless after being spent. That is something a Marine would not have a problem with.

There's multiple patterns of every weapon in the Imperium. For example, DKoK use basically a bolt action lasgun with its power set up to way too high. Cadia lasguns however have a fully automatic setting as noted in the IIUP. So since there are heavy lasguns, standard lasguns, lascarbines, laslocks, laspistols, bolt-action lasguns, lasgun sniper rifles, lasgun needle sniper rifles, etc.... why not a light lascannon? It'd be quite useful for PDF, as it's probably cheaper than the full blown one, and they'd be able to do guerrilla actions easier with it. Indeed, the difference between the Lascannon in Rogue Trader, shown above, and the one in Dark Heresy, shown below, proves this fact of many patterns:



That's the Dark Heresy one. You might notice it's basically the one that they have in the game. This was the one GW designed itself and released before handing Dark Heresy over to FFG.

Lynata wrote:Heh, is that the same approval process they're giving the BL novels?

Actually the one for licensed works appears to be tighter than it is for Black Library.

On topic, what would be really neat to see, and somewhat new, would be a Battlefield style shooter with the sides balanced as per the fluff. For example, in a regular game you might have a 64 player server with 32 on each side. Lets say in our new 40k game we have the same server, but with 10 marines up against 54 guardsmen. That way the marines can be sufficiently more powerful, but we can still have a competetive match. Only problem I see is, knowing the internet community, nobody would want to play as a guardsman.

Also, the lascannon is not an automatic weapon. Its rate of fire is slower than the plasma cannon in game. In fact, there is actually an upgrade in-game for devastator marines, which allows it to fire faster. Improved lascannon capacitors, an upgrade existing alongside such things as improved heavy bolter coolant, signum link, improved ammunition stores, or an iron halo. Each class has something like that, representing that each power armor and weapon is a unique treasure of the Astartes (from bolter targeters for tacticals/csms to air-cooled thrusters for assault/raptors)

Melissia wrote:Indeed, the difference between the Lascannon in Rogue Trader, shown above, and the one in Dark Heresy, shown below, proves this fact of many patterns: [pic]
That's the Dark Heresy one. You might notice it's basically the one that they have in the game. This was the one GW designed itself and released before handing Dark Heresy over to FFG.

Indeed. Just that both still have the same description - so either it's the RPG or the computer game deviating from what GW has told them.

Or the description is just worded poorly and misleading - I admit that I too would think that a proper power pack (i.e. the huge box) would provide more energy than just for 4-5 shots.

lledwey wrote:On topic, what would be really neat to see, and somewhat new, would be a Battlefield style shooter with the sides balanced as per the fluff. For example, in a regular game you might have a 64 player server with 32 on each side. Lets say in our new 40k game we have the same server, but with 10 marines up against 54 guardsmen. That way the marines can be sufficiently more powerful, but we can still have a competetive match. Only problem I see is, knowing the internet community, nobody would want to play as a guardsman.

The latter is indeed a problem - World of Warcraft has already attempted a similar approach to balance numerically disadvantaged battlegrounds, and the reception was a bit poor with people complaining about unstoppable juggernauts. It's also a problem of teamwork, of course; I imagine few people would be able to coordinate their attacks in a manner that is sufficient to stop a Marine. I've seen excellent teamwork on smaller games, but by and large most people on the internet seem to prefer the "lone wolf" approach. At least those who get grouped randomly instead of playing with their clan/guild/whatever.

But how about a game where the "disadvantage" of being a Guardsman would be balanced by NPC squadmates you could command?

I actually wished for this regarding the Dark Millennium MMO...

Or just like we demonstrated yesterday about the Red Hunters, you're putting too much emphasis on one word whilst ignoring another.

"Often" does not mean "Always", just like "Rumor" does not mean "Fact".

Kanluwen wrote:Or just like we demonstrated yesterday about the Red Hunters, you're putting too much emphasis on one word whilst ignoring another.
"Often" does not mean "Always", just like "Rumor" does not mean "Fact".

I'm putting emphasis on what is written - however thin - instead of preferring unfounded theories conjured out of thin air.

When the "separate" power packs are given as the specific reason for the cannon being operated by two or more people, then it's not really that far-fetched to assume they're talking about the big box. If some Guardsman is strong enough to carry it on his back like a Marine, cool.

After all, the heavy bolter too is also not "always" operated by two or more men within the ranks of the Imperial Guard, is it?

I do think it could work if they implemented it like this: attackers and defenders, not only SM and Guard but whoever. Attackers have objectives to complete, for example the marines have to go blow up an ammo dump and then extricate an Imperial captive from the enemy base. Attackers, in this case the Marines, do not respawn. They have to work together, kills not mattering, if they complete the objective then they win. Defenders, in my example the Guard, would respawn deathmatch style and only by killing all of the marines would they win.

Scenarios could differ too. I would say three different types: horde against horde (guard vs nids), squad against squad (marines vs chaos marines) and then squad against horde (marines vs guard). Start off with some vehicles, really bring us into the battle. Of course what I am describing is basically what Battlefield already is, with GW flavor added. Hmmm, we had Battlefield 1942 and Battlefield 2142, why not Battlefield 41000!

You're on to something! Respawn could indeed be used to balance stuff - also, Guardsmen would have access to more vehicles and especially stationary weapons. Maybe Marines would be a bit more slower, and of course easier to hit...

In a way, Marines would be a bit like vehicles themselves, just permanently crewed.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or just like we demonstrated yesterday about the Red Hunters, you're putting too much emphasis on one word whilst ignoring another.
"Often" does not mean "Always", just like "Rumor" does not mean "Fact".

I'm putting emphasis on what is written - however thin - instead of preferring unfounded theories conjured out of thin air.

When the "separate" power packs are given as the specific reason for the cannon being operated by two or more people, then it's not really that far-fetched to assume they're talking about the big box. If some Guardsman is strong enough to carry it on his back like a Marine, cool.

Or, like any situation where one man carries the heavy weapon/tripod, and the other carries the ammunition--it's feasible that they ditch the tripod and instead carry smaller ammunition packs which amount to the same general amount of ammo in total but are easier to carry.

After all, the heavy bolter too is also not "always" operated by two or more men within the ranks of the Imperial Guard, is it?

And you just proved my point even further.

By ditching the heavy bolter's ammo box+tripod and instead having belts an individual like Harker, Ox, or Bragg can feasibly operate a standard heavy bolter solo.

Kanluwen wrote:And you just proved my point even further. By ditching the heavy bolter's ammo box+tripod and instead having belts an individual like Harker, Ox, or Bragg can feasibly operate a standard heavy bolter solo.

Uh, yes. That's exactly what I've been playing at, to provide an explanation for why the book would use a term like "often". Doesn't change the fact that it'd still be a separate power source for the cannon, though.

And if you keep insisting that this means a normal power pack, despite this being the one and only weapon where it's being pointed out like this and given as a specific explanation for why it's usually crewed by two or more people, then the description is simply worded poorly and misleading.
That is, if your interpretation of the term "separate" is indeed how it is intended to work, of course.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And you just proved my point even further. By ditching the heavy bolter's ammo box+tripod and instead having belts an individual like Harker, Ox, or Bragg can feasibly operate a standard heavy bolter solo.

Uh, yes. That's exactly what I've been playing at, to provide an explanation for why the book would use a term like "often". Doesn't change the fact that it'd still be a separate power source for the cannon, though.

And if you keep insisting that this means a normal power pack, despite this being the one and only weapon where it's being pointed out like this and given as a specific explanation for why it's usually crewed by two or more people, then the description is simply worded poorly and misleading.
That is, if your interpretation of the term "separate" is indeed how it is intended to work, of course.

I have said EXACTLY NOTHING about it being "a normal power pack"(assuming you're believing my statement is in regards to the Lascannon being powered by a Lasgun Power Cell).
I have stated, several times, that you need to look at what you keep calling "connection ports".
You need to realize that they are the same shape as the power cells utilized in Plasma Guns. They have a rounded shape to them, rather than the flat shape you would expect for a coupling for an energy cable.

That's why I keep saying that it's very clearly powered by some form of power cell inserted into the same location as the "connection port".

Kanluwen wrote:I have said EXACTLY NOTHING about it being "a normal power pack"(assuming you're believing my statement is in regards to the Lascannon being powered by a Lasgun Power Cell).
I have stated, several times, that you need to look at what you keep calling "connection ports".
You need to realize that they are the same shape as the power cells utilized in Plasma Guns. They have a rounded shape to them, rather than the flat shape you would expect for a coupling for an energy cable.

That's why I keep saying that it's very clearly powered by some form of power cell inserted into the same location as the "connection port".

Save your rant, you're assuming wrong.
"Normal power pack" as in "one being pushed into the weapon" (regardless of shape) instead of a huge box on the ground or carried on the back and connected to the weapon via cables.

Ah, and I don't "keep" calling them connection ports. I've already said that I'm taking your word for it that there is an animation showing how the character exchanges them.

Lynata wrote: admit that I too would think that a proper power pack (i.e. the huge box) would provide more energy than just for 4-5 shots.

It would. The MP Lascannon provides five shots per pack. But then, that's like carrying around five rockets for your RPG-7; it sounds pretty reasonable considering the rarety of vehicles. If it's taken you five hits to destroy a tank, you're probably already dead.

Oh, and in multiplayer, the Devastator Marine class uses the Devastator Lascannon, which uses the backpack power pack, from the look of things. I saw said backpack in the multiplayer vids when looking behind a guy with a lascannon. In single player, however, you're playing as a captain who has to carry around a wide variety of weapons, not just one. So a portable lascannon for the big guys and a heavy bolter for the little ones-- why not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:I'm putting emphasis on what is written

No, you only put emphasis on it as long as it supports your argument.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I have said EXACTLY NOTHING about it being "a normal power pack"(assuming you're believing my statement is in regards to the Lascannon being powered by a Lasgun Power Cell).
I have stated, several times, that you need to look at what you keep calling "connection ports".
You need to realize that they are the same shape as the power cells utilized in Plasma Guns. They have a rounded shape to them, rather than the flat shape you would expect for a coupling for an energy cable.

That's why I keep saying that it's very clearly powered by some form of power cell inserted into the same location as the "connection port".

Save your rant, you're assuming wrong.
"Normal power pack" as in "one being pushed into the weapon" (regardless of shape) instead of a huge box on the ground or carried on the back and connected to the weapon via cables.

And if it's a "normal power pack" being pushed into the weapon, then it's a separate power source.

The lascannon is not part of the power pack, and vice versa.

The "box" on the ground and the backpack power cells for Hellguns aren't just a power source. They're a power source, boxed up with regulators, cooling exchanges, and pretty much everything to support continuous fire.
The description of Hellguns tells us as much.

Melissia wrote:No, you only put emphasis on it as long as it supports your argument.

You mean the argument based on a perception that is based on the very same thing?

Ambiguous fluff can be interpreted in multiple ways - and when a rumour provides a more obvious explanation than a theorized alternative that is not backed up by anything, then I, personally, am inclined to go with the rumour. One does not have to agree with this perception, but I am certain that one should not outright say "no" either.

And honestly, you are still of the opinion that the RPG does not contradict Codex material, so I wouldn't say that you have moral high ground in a discussion about such things.

Kanluwen wrote:And if it's a "normal power pack" being pushed into the weapon, then it's a separate power source.

See, that's where we disagree, for it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to point this out just for a single weapon when it applies to each and everyone, anyways.

Kanluwen wrote:The "box" on the ground and the backpack power cells for Hellguns aren't just a power source. They're a power source, boxed up with regulators, cooling exchanges, and pretty much everything to support continuous fire. The description of Hellguns tells us as much.

Indeed. Irrelevant, though.

When Codex material is so inherently vague that they have to resort to copy/pasting fluff older than some posters on the forum--it should be contradicted by the RPG and Black Library.

You're still of the opinion that the Dark Heresy core rulebook, which was written by Games Workshop and then passed to FFG afterwards, isn't canon because it was written by GW instead of being written by GW. Don't argue about who has credibility or moral high ground. Let's keep this civil.

Possibly because it wasn't written by GW but BI. You keep mixing that up.

Lynata wrote:Possibly because it wasn't written by GW but BI. You keep mixing that up.

Black Industries was a direct subsidiary of GW. Like Forgeworld. Or Black Library.

Honestly if every discussion with you is going to end up "it isn't a codex so it isn't canon" just say so now, so that I can ignore you-- as your posts basically just end up being trolling anyway if this is the case, and you contradict GW's own stance on the issue.

Alright then, ignore away.

I for one just can't take some of the things that these subsidiaries are churning out seriously - and am surprised that you seem to do so, given that you have held a different stance concerning certain novels about corrupted Sisters?

And ... this is not GW's own stance on the issue. George Mann is the Head of Publishing, so when he says that the authors are all presenting "alternative worlds" then I'm simply taking his word on it. Just like I have no reason to doubt the authors when they themselves say so on their blogs or (in the case of one of FFG's writers) a forum.

It's probably indeed best if we part ways. I'm sure you, just like Kanluwen, possess a vast knowledge of various writings, but when we lack a common ground on where it would apply I guess we don't have anything to give to each other, me being a troll and all.

There's no reason to waste each other's time any further.

Sheesh. Didn't know fictional laser guns could be so contentious

As for the deathmatch idea, I like it. The "squads" would get no respawn, but would usually be on par with other "squads" and vastly superior to "hordes," while the "hordes" would have unlimited respawns.
Vehicles would heavily depend on the army and scenario. Maybe SM might get a single, non-respawning LR and a non-respawning Predator or Whirlwind, and a rhino or two that do respawn. IG might get a pair of LRBT and chimeras that do respawn and a basilisk that doesn't, stuff like that.
Only issue is how MCs would work. Maybe the person with the most kills/points gets the option to spawn as one if it becomes available?

darkPrince010 wrote:Only issue is how MCs would work. Maybe the person with the most kills/points gets the option to spawn as one if it becomes available?

That's how it worked in Star Wars Battlefront II and people playing as Vader etc. Viable idea!