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It wasn't "eurocrats" that called for a second vote to the Nice and Lisbon referenda, it was the Irish Government. And all parties were behind it bar 1, Sinn Féin.
The fact is complex legal documents of that sort are not suitable for referenda, people aren't gonna get it so they'll almost always vote no. The No campaign used a lot of outright lies in their campaign, which have been proven lies in the last couple of years. They mixed it in with some truth, but stuff like forced conscription of our youth, a minimum wage of E1.82 and so on was never in the treaty but it was a large part of why people voted No.

But Ireland dug it's own grave. Same with Greece.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But whatever wrongs the Greeks have done, that is neither here nor there. The southern EU states are now locked into a culture of dependancy on Bailouts from the north. In the long term they will have no say on fiscal policy. If a nation cannot control its money, then its populace have instantly been disenfranchised. All power now stems from Brussels.

They had no say in fiscal policy in the short term, because no one had any real say in fiscal policy until the Euro was at risk; at which point the economically powerful states took what everyone knew they were going to get eventually anyway, at least if the Euro was to survive. Of course, you have to remember that this is a symbiotic relationship. Even if the weaker states have no real say over monetary policy governing the euro, they still contribute to its value, which means that any policy choices will have to consider the needs of Southern Europe; bailouts or no.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You want proof? Look at that referendum in Ireland a few years ago when they voted No and then the Eurocrats forced them to keep voting until they said Yes. That was a f$$$££G disgrace to democracy.

Democracy isn't always a good thing.

Da Boss wrote:This crisis was less about taxes and spending and more about incredibly poor regulation of financial institutions.
And in Ireland's case, the disastrous decision to guarantee the private debts of various individuals, many of them German, British and French nationals.

Many Irish people would agree with you.
Our last government had no spine and agreed to guarantee the banks when it was a very silly thing to do for us.
Sure the banks would have collapsed, but at least the country itself wouldn't be bankrupt.
Iceland got over it pretty quickly.

For what is said about Ireland and it's wild lending to the sub-prime market, vast amounts of cash were handed over to anglo-irish (a sub-prime bank who's borrowers were risky at best) by the german banks before to the bailouts to fund the wild lending that was going on to a building trade and mass inflation to the housing market. The germans won't let Ireland die and go bankrupt because they have invested too much pre 2008.

Now I'm all for blaming people but as far as I'm concerned the ''super being'' that is the EU failed to monitor the Irish banks as it was supposed to do with all of europe the Irish central bank failed to do the same and the opposition in government sat there and and let the bubble grow. (I don't remenber the opposition once questioning the government in the good times because they were too preoccupied with getting re-elected than running the country)

Now for all the bad that Ireland did on it's own it was let to eat all it could from the biscuit tin because it's mammy was busy chatting up the neighbours for business deals.

In my opinion if europe had monitored it's banks things would look a little brighter.

P.S. Any one else remember how Sarkozy talked about how to fix Frances economy in his election campaign because it was living on borrowed money and had been for some time. Yet all this was forgotten about when he was elected. Every country has it's dirty little secrets under the carpet it's just that the P.I.I.G.S.'s have caught fire under there. It's only a matter of time before the rest of what's hidden rears it's ugly head.


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Da Boss wrote:
Many Irish people would agree with you.
Our last government had no spine and agreed to guarantee the banks when it was a very silly thing to do for us.
Sure the banks would have collapsed, but at least the country itself wouldn't be bankrupt.
Iceland got over it pretty quickly.

Not entirely as the guarantee was based on false information from the banks, who had a good hold on the dáil.

Iceland had it's own currency to devalue and get investors. Ireland has lost the punt so long as it's in the EU and as such can't fix itself that way. one of the failings of the way the euro works. Any way Ireland should have been kicked out of the EU as it's economy failed to pass basic requirement tests to be a member state prior to the bust (having a growth in excess of 5%) but was never removed why the EU can't monitor itself is a mystery hidden in a mountain of red tape.

The Greeks could actually pay their taxes, there's no law against it.

What's that old saw about no taxation without representation? Maybe it goes both ways.

How long will the German tax payer put up with subsidising the Greeks to retire at 63?