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So, after two world wars, Blitzkreig, trenches, Bismarck, The Holy Roman Empire, Martin Luther, and Kraftwerk (great band) the Germans have finally succeeded in dominating Europe:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100098260/this-crisis-will-give-germany-the-empire-its-always-dreamed-of/

Where does this leave the UK?

Psh, Empire's are so last century. All the cool countries are into bitter nostalgia these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Article strikes me as Euro-skeptic fear mongering. Whether or not the EU is a good idea, that whole piece struck me as an attention grabber and a cheap shot at anti-German sentiments.

I wouldn't call it fear mongering when you consider that elected governments in Greece and Ireland (with Portugal and Spain likely to follow) having no say on what they can spend their money on for the next 15 years.

Where is the democracy in all this? or in the EU in general?

America works on many levels because everybody speaks the same language and has very similar cultural values (apart from in Texas)

But Europe is a different kettle of fish for obvious reasons. A shotgun wedding of different languages, work ethics and history won't work.

Sadly, there will probably be a lot of riots and loss of life in some parts of Europe when these measures really kick in.

We in the UK need to get back to our historical strengths of trade and innovation, and not get bogged down by this. We pay in more than we get out.

Now there I do agree with you. If we're to be in the EU we need to be flexing our muscle a bit more. With the amount that we back it financially, we should excersize our voice more strongly. It's got to be that, or complete separation.

I do feel that this article is skewed to make it look more dramatic than it actually is, though.

Scaremongering, without doubt.

Most experts are saying that the heads of the other Eurozone countries should have gone further and sooner.

This was a Eurozone issue, our say wasn't that great.

Re trade and innovation, this made it doubly important to us as without a strong market (or one that could still be considered a viable one) to sell/lend in we would suffer considerable.

Still thats all done with now until about four months time when the lazy Greeks decide that actually they still don't want to pay tax or even work.

We should send Phil the Greek in to sort them out really (and leave him there).

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I wouldn't call it fear mongering when you consider that elected governments in Greece and Ireland (with Portugal and Spain likely to follow) having no say on what they can spend their money on for the next 15 years.

Where is the democracy in all this? or in the EU in general?

The governments in Greece and Ireland have 100% say on what they can spend their money on, the restrictions are on what they can spend other people's money on. Democracy doesn't mean 'someone else bankrolls everything I vote to do', the people have to actually fund the stuff they vote for. Greece is really a lot like the guy who never holds a job for long and always 'borrows' money from people so he can sit around drinking and playing xbox all day. At some point, people tell him they aren't going to loan him 'a few bucks' until it's clear that he'll actually pay it back.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I wouldn't call it fear mongering when you consider that elected governments in Greece and Ireland (with Portugal and Spain likely to follow) having no say on what they can spend their money on for the next 15 years.

Where is the democracy in all this? or in the EU in general?

America works on many levels because everybody speaks the same language and has very similar cultural values (apart from in Texas)

But Europe is a different kettle of fish for obvious reasons. A shotgun wedding of different languages, work ethics and history won't work.

Sadly, there will probably be a lot of riots and loss of life in some parts of Europe when these measures really kick in.

We in the UK need to get back to our historical strengths of trade and innovation, and not get bogged down by this. We pay in more than we get out.

Because said Goverments have acted like complet fools, and caused this themself by allowing the banks& finacal instusions run amok. And I dont have any pitty for those living in said countries either. They need a heavy hand to govern their spendings

I think our Norwegian friend needs an editor for that post.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I wouldn't call it fear mongering when you consider that elected governments in Greece and Ireland (with Portugal and Spain likely to follow) having no say on what they can spend their money on for the next 15 years.

Where is the democracy in all this? or in the EU in general?

The governments in Greece and Ireland have 100% say on what they can spend their money on, the restrictions are on what they can spend other people's money on. Democracy doesn't mean 'someone else bankrolls everything I vote to do', the people have to actually fund the stuff they vote for. Greece is really a lot like the guy who never holds a job for long and always 'borrows' money from people so he can sit around drinking and playing xbox all day. At some point, people tell him they aren't going to loan him 'a few bucks' until it's clear that he'll actually pay it back.

Exactly!

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, after two world wars, Blitzkreig, trenches, Bismarck, The Holy Roman Empire, Martin Luther, and Kraftwerk (great band) the Germans have finally succeeded in dominating Europe:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100098260/this-crisis-will-give-germany-the-empire-its-always-dreamed-of/

Where does this leave the UK?

Just give us a second.

halonachos wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, after two world wars, Blitzkreig, trenches, Bismarck, The Holy Roman Empire, Martin Luther, and Kraftwerk (great band) the Germans have finally succeeded in dominating Europe:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100098260/this-crisis-will-give-germany-the-empire-its-always-dreamed-of/

Where does this leave the UK?

Just give us a second.

With you guys in the financial state you're in? Best of luck.

htj wrote:

halonachos wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, after two world wars, Blitzkreig, trenches, Bismarck, The Holy Roman Empire, Martin Luther, and Kraftwerk (great band) the Germans have finally succeeded in dominating Europe:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100098260/this-crisis-will-give-germany-the-empire-its-always-dreamed-of/

Where does this leave the UK?

Just give us a second.

With you guys in the financial state you're in? Best of luck.

You'd be surprised what we can do during a bad financial state.

halonachos wrote:

htj wrote:

halonachos wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, after two world wars, Blitzkreig, trenches, Bismarck, The Holy Roman Empire, Martin Luther, and Kraftwerk (great band) the Germans have finally succeeded in dominating Europe:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100098260/this-crisis-will-give-germany-the-empire-its-always-dreamed-of/

Where does this leave the UK?

Just give us a second.

With you guys in the financial state you're in? Best of luck.

You'd be surprised what we can do during a bad financial state.

I'll keep an eye on the news then, for your financial invasion of Normandy. Heads up, France.

Bearers of salvations, fair point, but the restrictions on loan deals given to Ireland and Greece are pretty draconian. How does that help democracy? They may as well not bother with elections in these countries and let the accountants decide. for example,

Ireland's budget had to get the nod from IMF top brass. So you have a situation where ordinary people, who through no fault of their own are suffering as their governmet cuts down on essential services in order to pay off the debts. It doesn't matter who they elect, as Brussels accountants have the final say.

The point that I and many others are trying to make is that without one centralised treasury, the euro project can't work. That's what we've seen countries moving towards in recent days.

So now, France and Germany are calling the shots, whilst countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, and Italy are dancing to their tune. Effectively, they revert to vassal states of old. Their populace will be cut off from the elite in Brussels, and sadly, will make their feelings known through violence.

Now, in a way the Greek have only themselves to blame for the corruption and tax fraud that led to this.

But, and this is the kicker. The EU claims to be a democratic organisation, but the reality is far from this. It has a constitution that was rejected by the voters of many member states or in the UK's case, never got the chance of a referendum!

Democracy yes, but it can still lead to tyranny. You know what they say about the raod to hell and good intentions.
Like I said, this only benefiets Germany, whilst the UK, which chucks millions at the EU project every year, gets the square root of squat back in return!

Rant over.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Bearers of salvations, fair point, but the restrictions on loan deals given to Ireland and Greece are pretty draconian. How does that help democracy? They may as well not bother with elections in these countries and let the accountants decide. for example,

Again, the slang meaning democracy doesn't mean that someone else is obligated to pay for what your people vote for. If you vote for a bunch of stuff but don't pay for it, no one is obligated to loan you money to keep doing the stuff you voted for. Trying to equate 'you have pay back loans if you take them' with a destruction of representative government just doesn't work. You can vote in whatever government you like, and they can enact whatever policies they like, but other countries are not obliged to pay for your extended vacations and early retirement.

The real form of democracy has the same limitation, and is also an absolutely terrible way to run a country. This is easily demonstrated in a high school civics class by holding a vote on 'should this one kid have to do everyone's homework for them'. Countries like Greece are running into one of the big problems with straight democracy, that 'hey lets vote for stuff that's cool for me' doesn't magically pay for itself.

Ireland's budget had to get the nod from IMF top brass. So you have a situation where ordinary people, who through no fault of their own are suffering as their governmet cuts down on essential services in order to pay off the debts. It doesn't matter who they elect, as Brussels accountants have the final say.

Wait, how is retiring at 63 essential for Greeks, but 68 is fine for Germans? And why should the Germans be forced to work five more years before retirement to pay for the Greeks to kick off early? This is really like the slacker roomate from before demanding that you work overtime so that he can buy a new TV. And as far as 'no fault of their own...'

Now, in a way the Greek have only themselves to blame for the corruption and tax fraud that led to this.

"In a way"? Are you saying that somehow Germany or France forced them to be corrupt and not pay taxes? It's 100% the fault of the Greeks, this isn't some situation where an obscure part of the government does stuff in secret, then suprises people, tax evasion is done completely in the open by virtually everyone, it's ingrained in Greek culture from everything I've read on the topic.

So now, France and Germany are calling the shots, whilst countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, and Italy are dancing to their tune. Effectively, they revert to vassal states of old. Their populace will be cut off from the elite in Brussels, and sadly, will make their feelings known through violence.

Oh noes, some guys will break some windows and call themselves 'anarchists' while decrying reduced government spending. Maybe if they'd actually work and pay taxes like mature adults instead of whining and throwing a tantrum like pouty teenagers, people would be willing to loan them money.

And really, do you think that the biggest, most stable economies in Europe would NOT be calling the shots if there was a single central EuroBank?

This is one reason why not to have a currency that is tied to multiple countries. It's too much strain when one country (or multiple ones in this case) decide to spend and borrow like there's no tomorrow. THE IMF and the EU should've let Greece and Ireland (plus Spain and Italy potentially) deal with it without intervention, let them fail. It would've been better than them becoming the lapdogs of the rest of the EU. This is a very ominous consolidation of power concentrated in one country's hands.

The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

This crisis was less about taxes and spending and more about incredibly poor regulation of financial institutions.
And in Ireland's case, the disastrous decision to guarantee the private debts of various individuals, many of them German, British and French nationals.

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

It seems to work pretty good too.

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

But it's been a very long time indeed since any of us were laboring under the assumption of state sovereignty.

Stormrider wrote:This is one reason why not to have a currency that is tied to multiple countries. It's too much strain when one country (or multiple ones in this case) decide to spend and borrow like there's no tomorrow.

Its only really an issue when that currency lacks an authoritative central bank, which will be necessary in order for the Euro to survive.

Stormrider wrote:
THE IMF and the EU should've let Greece and Ireland (plus Spain and Italy potentially) deal with it without intervention, let them fail. It would've been better than them becoming the lapdogs of the rest of the EU.

You should probably do a little research into post-Soviet Eastern Europe, and its effects on Western Europe; not to mention the ownership of Greek and Irish debt. The effects of state default and economic failure never stay within national borders.

Stormrider wrote:
This is a very ominous consolidation of power concentrated in one country's hands.

Why is it ominous?

Manchu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

But it's been a very long time indeed since any of us were laboring under the assumption of state sovereignty.

Exactly, which I find to be quite ironic in this current situation as Europe is traditionally far more open to socialist thought (at least on a national level). If you want disparate parts to work towards a greater whole then you need a strong central government. The failure to have such a government eventually leads to collapse and/or impotence as all of the pieces fight each other over their own self-interests. Of course, for Europe that means the contemplation of an EU constitution and supreme government, and that is a frightening and alien proposition for most. Also, I see no contemporary European analogue to Alexander Hamilton which is all but required to make that more than a novel idea.

Though, Manchu, your point lists the biggest issue to unity, no strong national identity for the EU. If I'm in another country and someone asks me where I'm from I'll say that I'm an American. The EU doesn't have that yet, no one's a European yet, the European identity isn't the principal one. Someone from Germany is a German whether they're in France or Japan; Whereas I'm from Massachusetts only when I'm in another state, not when I'm in another country. That really is the most important thing for any strong national movement, even looking at our own history, there was only a revolution once people stopped labeling themselves as British and start calling themselves Americans.

So, calling back to the original post, what's good for Germany is good for the rest of Europe as long as one believes in and fully supports the EU, and as long as all the countries involved (most especially Germany) do as well.

You can take the Germans out of Imperialism, but you can't take the Imperialism out of the Germans... its only a matter of time...

Anyway, phrases and sayings aside, my thought is that we're seeing a turning point for the EU, the decisions made in the next couple years will determine if the EU dissolves entirely, written off as a failed attempt at unification of a continent that IMO can never really be unified peacefully, or transforms into something more centralized and dominant.

Though, Manchu, your point lists the biggest issue to unity, no strong national identity for the EU. If I'm in another country and someone asks me where I'm from I'll say that I'm an American. The EU doesn't have that yet, no one's a European yet, the European identity isn't the principal one. Someone from Germany is a German whether they're in France or Japan; Whereas I'm from Massachusetts only when I'm in another state, not when I'm in another country. That really is the most important thing for any strong national movement, even looking at our own history, there was only a revolution once people stopped labeling themselves as British and start calling themselves Americans.

This is wrong on a lot of levels. The concept of being an American didn't come around until much later, and largely coincides with the rise of the federal government and diminishing states rights (I'd say around the Civil War). Prior to that, you were a New Yorker, a Virginian, a Pennsylvanian, etc. and thats the way it should remain. Its the United STATES, not the United STATE. 50 separate nations that have surrendered a portion of their autonomy to a centralized government body for the mutual benefit of all. In effect, the EU is trying to be what the US was and technically still is. You don't need the European identity to be the principal identity for this to succeed, the US is proof of this, but you need to have a population willing to surrender a portion of their own national sovereignty to another body, otherwise you have the current craptacular system, which is largely similar to the Confederated States (the US under the Articles of Confederation), which the US knows from experience does not work.

Am I correct in thinking that it is possible for a US state government to raise finance on the bond market, run up a serious debt, and default?

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

So the nations like france, spain, GB, are on the same level as a state?
Who is the equivalent of greece in the US of A?

Neconilis wrote:
So, calling back to the original post, what's good for Germany is good for the rest of Europe as long as one believes in and fully supports the EU, and as long as all the countries involved (most especially Germany) do as well.

"faith" in the EU is found at the political caste, not the population of europe.
Thats why decisions are made without the people and exclusion does not lead to support of an idea.
Can't have centralized and federal at the same time, but thats where countries differ.

chaos0xomega wrote:You can take the Germans out of Imperialism, but you can't take the Imperialism out of the Germans... its only a matter of time...

Imperialism is in:

- britain
- france
- spain
- portugal
- etc
to be found, as they have shown this type of interests in the past. Just remember it wasn't us who colonized the other continents and
dominated them so far they even use their languages today.

And it is still part of the behaviour of some fellow europeans to try to achieve a dominant position in the EU without contributing too much...

1hadhq wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You can take the Germans out of Imperialism, but you can't take the Imperialism out of the Germans... its only a matter of time...

Imperialism is in:

- britain
- france
- spain
- portugal
- etc
to be found, as they have shown this type of interests in the past. Just remember it wasn't us who colonized the other continents and
dominated them so far they even use their languages today.

And it is still part of the behaviour of some fellow europeans to try to achieve a dominant position in the EU without contributing too much...

This, really. Almost every country in Europe had held an empire at some point in it's history. By that logic, every European country supports imperialism.

1hadhq wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA has managed for 200 years with a number of states all setting their own local taxes and spending, and a single currency.

So the nations like france, spain, GB, are on the same level as a state?
Who is the equivalent of greece in the US of A?

It's not exactly the same, but there are similarities.

What I am thinking of principally is that the Greek problem is they cannot devalue their currency or set an appropriate interest rate because all of that is controlled by the central bank. It is the same as in the USA.

Neconilis wrote:
Though, Manchu, your point lists the biggest issue to unity, no strong national identity for the EU. If I'm in another country and someone asks me where I'm from I'll say that I'm an American.

I would argue that the US doesn't have a particularly strong national identity either (lots of people still identify with their state first, even in foreign countries, and many more don't identify with their country at all), and, even if it does have one, it hasn't had one for very long; maybe since the late 19the century at the earliest, and not really in the modern sense since WWII.

Neconilis wrote:
The EU doesn't have that yet, no one's a European yet, the European identity isn't the principal one.

There are two ways to form a strong state. The first is to start with a national identity, and then fight for some kind of political self-determination. A good example of this is Germany, and its fairly rare in parts of the world that weren't stricken with colonialism, and not particularly common even there. The second is to start with a relatively small, powerful group of people, and impose the will of the state on other groups of people; either by coercion or persuasion. This is best exemplified by the United States, and the European states, and is significantly more common.

I debated this the other day with BearersofSalvaton, and he made a lot of valid points about the Greeks getting themelves into this mess by having a dodgy tax system etc

But whatever wrongs the Greeks have done, that is neither here nor there. The southern EU states are now locked into a culture of dependancy on Bailouts from the north. In the long term they will have no say on fiscal policy. If a nation cannot control its money, then its populace have instantly been disenfranchised. All power now stems from Brussels.

You want proof? Look at that referendum in Ireland a few years ago when they voted No and then the Eurocrats forced them to keep voting until they said Yes. That was a f$$$££G disgrace to democracy.

Look at the UK situation. When are we going to get a referendum Mr Blair or Mr Cameron or even Mr Heath or Mrs Thatcher?

I can understand the principal behind the EU - nobody wants to see Europe torn apart by conflict. But if people have little say in their future - then they'll do the talking on the streets.