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Manchu wrote:I guess I just see that as a difference in how wide the corridor is.

Makes a difference. Seriously, FFXIII is a tube.

Manchu wrote:@Red Comet: Those are some great points and great follow-up to candy.man's points above.

Still, I don't think fans or detractors of FFVII have much to worry about with regard to a remake. I think OP is being a little optimistic about the chances of this happening in the near or even distant future -- for the very points you laid out.

You are probably right. I don't see this happening anytime soon and some one just mentioned that a PSP remake is what Sony usually does. I could see that happening for the PSP, but at the same time I'd have to say that it would probably still be underrated for a PSP RPG.

On the topic of XIII. While the entire layout of the map was linear, it was still good. The plot and the characters were interesting enough to hold my interest the entire time. Like everyone else I just wish the game would have been a little less linear. The battle system was fun, once you understood how it worked and got a good working party. Also the game looked beautiful in 1080p from beginning to end.

Let's set the record straight about what "linear" even means.

"Linearity" in a RPG is a matter of story development and not geography. If you can go to Town X before you go to Town Y but you can't do anything in Town Y unless you've already been to Town X -- does it matter? No. There is no effect on how "linear" the game is. Level (or "stage") design is also not a measure of what we mean by "linearity" in RPGs. A level map that looks like a bicycle wheel is no less "linear," in the sense of story development, than a level that looks like a line. The reason is because that map itself is actually just a point. The shape that results when we connect it to other points is what determines whether the game is linear or non-linear.

Yes, FFXIII is indeed a linear game in the correct sense of that term. This should have come as no surprise to anyone. Every single FF game is totally linear: you must do X before you can do Y before you can do Z, etc. Now don't confuse linearity with whether or not a game allows for player choices. Linear games often allow for players to choose between certain options. In FFVII, you were encouraged to become romantically attached to either Tifa or Aeris. Notice, however, that your choice between them did not affect the story. Rather, it affected your experience of the story.

Let's contrast this to a non-linear game, Fallout 3. Fallout 3 is not non-linear because it contains no linear elements at all. Remember: linearity is determined by the shape produced when we "connect the dots." In Fallout 3, the "shape" of a given quest (including but not limited to the Main Quest) is a line, although you don't necessarily have to pass through every possible point in order to realize the line. So there is the linear element. But zoom out, considering those quests to be points: you can see that you can connect the dots in just about any pattern you like.

This affects our reaction to the game. If I ask someone what FFVII is about then, no matter how long and convoluted the answer is, it will boil down to "save the world from Sephiroth" -- and even if they just said "saving the world from Sephiroth," that's a totally adequate answer. If I ask someone what Fallout 3 is about and they tell me "purifying the water" then they've actually just told me about the Main Quest and not about Fallout 3. Similarly, if someone said "finding out who the robot is" they would not really be telling me about Fallout 3. When I have asked people to talk about Fallout 3, they tend to describe the Capital Wasteland and say things like "and the world is totally open."

You can see that in a non-linear game, the non-linearity itself is often one of the most salient aspects of our experience. That's fine for certain video games but try to imagine a non-linear movie or novel. It would be pretty frustrating. Linearity is not a bad thing; it's how we tell stories. Let's get back to the notion of FFXIII's "linearity" being a problem of "how wide the corridors are." Does this actually matter? What is the difference in my experience between (a) walking down a hallway so narrow that I can only stay on a straight path forward or (b) walking down a hallway that is wide enough for me to zig-zag back and forth as I move ahead? Honestly, not much. In movies or books from the fantasy/adventure genre(s), protagonists don't waste time "bouncing off the walls."

In my opinion, the linear level design of FFXIII makes the story feel more "cinematic" -- I don't think the "long, narrow hallway" model fails in any significant way.

Some people will say that FFXIII feels like a straight line between points A and B. That's silly and not true; the plot development in the story entirely obviates that claim. Others will say that the "tube" layout hinders immersion. Again, I don't see the point: does a coherent plotline ruin your immersion into a film or novel? Also, the backgrounds are themselves immense and rendered on a truly epic scale. I always felt like I was playing in a larger and more complex world in contrast to my characters' immediate, specific goals.

The truth is that games often attract criticism for what they aren't and were not intended to be rather than what they actually are and were intended to be. In 2002, I heard people criticize Morrowind because there was "no point." In 2009, I heard (not just via web fora but also in professional reviews published in magazines) that FFXIII is "too linear." An informed opinion about a game involves addressing the game on its own terms. And it certainly doesn't hurt to be a little thoughtful with loaded terms like "linear."

FFXIII is more linear then. In FFVII there are optional side quests. Hell there are many optional team members. When I want to go down the main quest again I feel like its my choice. I've taken care of other matters that have cropped up along the way. I can go where I want. Now you may argue that FFXIII has an open area at the end but I'm not sure if its the fact those quests suck or that it was just too little too late but I just wanted the game to be over at that point. When the tube has no branches it feels like a chore more than an RPG.
FFXIII is like an interactive movie.

There are in fact optional sidequests in FFXIII. But I will agree that FFXIII, as a JRPG, is more like an interactive movie than Western RPGs. I don't think it's any more or less like an interactive movie than FFVII. Maybe the issue is that you like the story of FFVII better than the story of FFXIII.

I do in fact but I would say the side quests in XIII are just xp fodder that you can really only attempt attempt after you've beaten the game anyway. As if they felt obligated to throw us some sort of non llinear bone. Side quests in VII might get you a vampire with guns or something.

The thing about FFXIII is that in the later chapters, you actually do get more freedom of exploration with optional side quests. The only problem I have is that they put this all late in the game, so it feels like it's unbalanced. Still, the combat system was very innovative, and while the early battles seem point and click, the later fights get very challenging.

It makes the worst first impression possible with the combat but the paradigm system is something good they've come up with. They're making a XIII-2 I believe and I think it may be good because they'll have the paradigm system and they may actually make it not so non-linear. Hopefully they'll completely change the summons: Worst summons EVAR!

About Vincent & Yuffie: remember that FFVII went through development hell -- hence it's "ending." Yuffie and Vincent were intended to be "full cast members" but were both still in development when the deadlines rolled by. Instead of canning them altogether, the studio hastily threw them in as "optional characters." This bit of "non-linearity" was actually kind of a mistake. If FFXIII was as badly put together as FFVII was then maybe it would be more non-linear.

It amuses me when people say things like "Only thing that keeps me from playing it are the graphics".

Are we so spoiled that a fun game with an epic story is made unenjoyable because it doesn't look pretty?

Modern games like Castle Crashers are still immensely fun and they're just cartoon characters running around Double Dragon-style slashing at things. FF6 is still even more epic than FF7, and with worse graphics. Old RPGs took 99 hours to really sit down and play through all the way. They were also more difficult. Modern RPGs can be beaten in a few dozen hours and without ever actually being challenged.

Also, most villains try to destroy the world - Kefka from FF6 actually DID.

I think what made FF7 so great was that in all RPGs, we are told such and such character is a badass. Kefka shoots lasers across the world and it's destroyed. He's become a god amongst men. Ok, sure. But he looks like a one-inch tall fairy in a red coat, how is that scary? FF7 made your enemies LOOK like badasses. We could SEE Sephiroth glaring at us, and smiling at us when he killed you-know-who. That arrogant smirk was THERE, now, and we saw you-know-who's eyes shut as they died. It wasn't "standing sprite" versus "laying down sprite", the same way they lay down during rest scenes at inns - they were DEAD, and you knew it, and that bastard with the grin on his face did it.

Much more emotional impact.

An interesting factoid but it doesn't really matter how it came about just the end result. Is XIII the first Square game to not have some sort of mini-game diversion and/or puzzles? As much as I like the paradigm system that's all there is. Just paradigm fight after paradigm fight. XIII isn't even a 1/4 as good as Super Mario RPG.

Spellbound wrote:It amuses me when people say things like "Only thing that keeps me from playing it are the graphics".

Are we so spoiled that a fun game with an epic story is made unenjoyable because it doesn't look pretty?

Modern games like Castle Crashers are still immensely fun and they're just cartoon characters running around Double Dragon-style slashing at things. FF6 is still even more epic than FF7, and with worse graphics. Old RPGs took 99 hours to really sit down and play through all the way. They were also more difficult. Modern RPGs can be beaten in a few dozen hours and without ever actually being challenged.

The problem with the graphics of FF7 is that they haven't aged well.

Sprite graphics never looked realistic, but worked well for a video game. We enjoyed them at the time and we can still enjoy them now. Even low-resolution sprite graphics don't look cheap. They look cartoony, but we can accept cartoony.

The early 3D graphics are a totally different story. They looked amazing at the time (because we hadn't seen 3D graphics before). But, now, they look so poor as to actually put people off. The blocky shapes that make up the characters look way worse than a simple sprite.


In 1997, FF7 had amazing graphics that were way better than FF6.
In 2011, FF6 has passable graphics while FF7 is almost painful to look at.

I can still look at 1995 Bryce 3d graphics and appreciate them for what they are, despite having watched Tangled and Monsters Inc, though.

@Ahtman - so? Star Wars has the same story, too. What of it? It's classic and it works. Change the dialog and the story of why the main villain is doing what he's doing, make the main character a selfish jerk that softens when he's given a cause instead of a naive lost girl that gets a backbone when shown what evil really is and bam, the story progresses differently.

The character graphics for VII are hideous. Even at the time they were hideous. We just put up with it is all. I think what was shiny and new at the time was fully rendered, beautiful, full motion, cut scenes. That seemed to distract everyone from the actual graphics. Probably couldn't play VII now just because of that. Sprite games like Chrono trigger and Secret of Mana still stand up today.

I thought VII was awful.

I found III (in the US) to be the best one, I also liked XII a lot.

I couldn't get past the first 5 hours in XIII, so at least VII was better than that one. I won't be buying any more, that's for sure.

Ironically you need to get past the 5th hour before you actually start playing the real game.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ironically you need to get past the 5th hour before you actually start playing the real game.

I tried to play Grandia last year via a PSN purchase and despite getting into the story never finished it. I think the graphics played some role in that. I don't think that makes me "spoiled" or "shallow." Video games are a visual medium, after all.

Manchu wrote:
Regarding FFVII "being hated," here's the rub: it's internet-fashionable to run down FFVII. The same thing, on a much smaller scale, has happened to FFXIII. But that's pretty typical for the internet, where the geek M.O. of bashing something that is universally acclaimed to seem especially cynical/cool/genius is par for the course. Act like that in real life and you're a social outcast; act like that on the internet and you're an idol to hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions (on 4chan) of twelve year olds.

Here's the rub: it's internet-fashionable to defend entirely overrated games

But srsly, I never thought this game was that great but loved FFVI at the time. Even when it first came out, with in a couple days it felt like I was playing something really boring and uncreative, kinda like there was no innovation involved and all it had was good character design aesthetically. I watched as my brother ran through the game, not understanding a single stat besides HP and won. There isn't game play, it's cut scenes and "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT CURE FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT CURE" that every one of these games become. The story didn't impact me. I'm not underrating now it to make up for anything, the game wasn't as good as everyone makes it out to be and isn't really a game at all.

I would like to see a remake and/or port to the Xbox 360, as I never played # 7.

Ahtman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ironically you need to get past the 5th hour before you actually start playing the real game.

Spoiler:

Until you get to the end and find out that everyone knew each other but just forgot.

I just mean that it takes 5 hours to get the paradigms. You're like playing the prologue until that point. But while we're on the subject of the story:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Here's the rub: it's internet-fashionable to defend entirely overrated games.

Doesn't actually seem to be the case regarding FFXIII. Is the rest of your post about FFVI or FFXIII? I'm having trouble applying your points to either game.

VII is the most beloved of the series. Even got it's own movie because of it. 'Hate" of it only exists as an internet meme like Manchu said.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:VII is the most beloved of the series.

That is going to be a pretty tough metric to prove; obsessed and beloved aren't the same thing. FFIII/VI seems to have a pretty strong following as well.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Even got it's own movie because of it.

Having seen this 'movie' I can say that this is a good example of damning with faint praise. Not only that but fan service side projects aren't exactly unusual in Japan. If this is the measure Dead or Alice is more beloved than Final Fantasy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:'Hate" of it only exists as an internet meme like Manchu said.

Actually the idea that someone could only not like something you like if they pretend to hate it is more of an internet position. There is room for legitimate criticism of the game and it was an important game as far as bringing JRPGs to the masses, but it is far from perfect, and may not be everyone cup of tea. It is a decent, not great, game with a strong nostalgia factor for a certain generation of gamers who get really sensitive about it when you point that out.

VII, III(VI?), and X are my favorites, in that order.

I wouldn't mind a remake. I really thought it was a great game, and updating the graphics and adding some current technological bells and whistles might be fun. I'm not holding my breath though. They've been talking about this for a long, long time.

It was a great, not decent, game. I don't know what you want to say about it well over a decade later. That depends on how you think games should be rated: according to their own time and place or against everything that has come since -- there's something valid about both points. But the amount of nostalgia that FFVII generates is not due to it having been a "decent" game. As I said, I replayed it about five years ago and found that the gap between what I remembered and what I felt years later was not so wide. Saying that it's a great game is not saying there is no room for legitimate criticism. Similarly, the fact that there is room for legitimate criticism is certainly not enough to justify its hatred. Gross exaggeration is the original internet meme.


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Monster Rain wrote:. . . updating the graphics and adding some current technological bells and whistles might be fun. I'm not holding my breath though.

The points in this thread have made me realize for the first time how much "making" remaking this game would take. I'd be disappointed with a GBA/DS/PSP-style remake, honestly -- even though the FFIV remake (for DS, not more recently on PSP) was pretty darn good. You have to admit: expectations are scaled down on handhelds. OTOH, a FFVII remake would make me strongly consider purchasing a Vita -- something I would not otherwise consider. (Well, after seeing the BioShock Infinite demo, we'll have to see about "BioShock Vita" . . .)

Ahtman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:VII is the most beloved of the series.

That is going to be a pretty tough metric to prove; obsessed and beloved aren't the same thing. FFIII/VI seems to have a pretty strong following as well.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Even got it's own movie because of it.

Having seen this 'movie' I can say that this is a good example of damning with faint praise. Not only that but fan service side projects aren't exactly unusual in Japan. If this is the measure Dead or Alice is more beloved than Final Fantasy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:'Hate" of it only exists as an internet meme like Manchu said.

Actually the idea that someone could only not like something you like if they pretend to hate it is more of an internet position. There is room for legitimate criticism of the game and it was an important game as far as bringing JRPGs to the masses, but it is far from perfect, and may not be everyone cup of tea. It is a decent, not great, game with a strong nostalgia factor for a certain generation of gamers who get really sensitive about it when you point that out.

I think I've been pretty fair in my critique of VII. I never said it was perfect but I still think it is the most popular. If Square decides another is popular enough to invest millions of dollars in making a full length film then they'll be another contender. When you you say it's a "decent, not great, game" I think that's a pretty reasoned opinion. If you think I'm some sort of VII fanatic you've got the wrong guy.
To me it's like Avatar. I think it is also "decent, not great" and that's it. It's got its own band of dedicated haters though. My point is you need to be beloved first to sow the seeds of haterism.
.....that's probably what took down The Emperor.

Even for it's own time I didn't think it was that great, aesthetically. As far as moving RPGs into the 3D era it was great, but the only other great thing about it was the sales*. The characters are actually fairly bland when stacked up to other FF character from earlier and later games.

I never connected the fact that it is open to criticism was what kept it from being a great game. Please do not put words in my mouth to try and make your points.

I'm enjoying your assault on people who hold a different legitimate view by claiming they could only dislike it by a) being part of an internet movement and b) hating it. One does not have to hate something to dislike. You are making gross exaggerations about people that take a different point of view, one of those, if not the only real one, arguments you make against them is that they grossly exaggerate. I believe that is called hypocrisy.


*For it's time. Other FF games have outsold it by a stretch.

Ahtman wrote:I never connected the fact that it is open to criticism was what kept it from being a great game. Please do not put words in my mouth to try and make your points.

Please do not assume I am attributing points that I'm making to you.

Ahtman wrote:You are making gross exaggerations about people that take a different point of view, one of those, if not the only real one, arguments you make against them is that they grossly exaggerate. I believe that is called hypocrisy.

I'm talking about people who claim to hate FFVII. By definition, I am not overstating their position by saying they hate the game. I am saying there is no legitimate rational reason to hate the game even if one can make legitimate criticisms. ("I hate it just because" is not a position worth spending my time addressing.) Ergo if someone hates the game, rather than merely disliking it, because "there is room for legitimate criticism" then they must be exaggerating. No hypocrisy, just logic.


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*Of course, as Ahtman knows, by "hate" I don't mean the opposite of "be totally obsessed with and see no faults whatsoever and damn anyone who says there's anything wrong with my precious, precious FF7." So we're probably arguing about nothing.