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How about having summer and winter sales? Or BOGOF offers?
This would make it easier for the younger generation to start, and would also mean that vet's would have an excuse to add more to their existing forces.
I always thought that GW b&m stores were retail emporiums, it's about time that they started acting like them......

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Starter sets we know the reason why they're not doing it. The limited edition models took up casting and sculpting time, while the boxes themselves always had to be handpacked by and large.
"Bulk deals" I don't know why they do not do them. They used to do them, but I'd assume it's just a question of stock management.

darkPrince010 wrote:Escalation Leagues, while they do have some minor issues with army tailoring vs opponents strengths, are actually a good idea, and I really enjoyed when my local club did one (Although I found out the hard way Tyranid Warriors get significantly less effective at 1000+ pts).

This one's not actually hard to solve. WHFB's army composition becomes standard for 40k as well. It cuts down on how much you can use the units more open to abuse.

I do wish GW would add/encourage Skirmish-size 500pts games at their lgs, so people can get a feel for armies before dropping major $ on them. Plus, it would reduce the time investment needed to finish a game (Do I have 3 hours at the mall to spend playing a game? Probably not. But 30 minutes? Sure, if it's a fun experience), helping snag more people into the hobby that would have only briefly considered it before.

Simple solution for this is to have a "buyback" program operated by GW and its independents. You're able to sell your army back to them for store credit or cash, and the store gets an army to paint(or if you painted it to an acceptable standard) and then display/loan out for demo games.

Now of course, this one might be tricky with the overenthusiastic people who slap paint down as soon as they can and require the staff to strip models, etc...but it might be worth it in the end.

Hmmm. If the buyback was reasonable (Lol, GW being reasonable?), that'd actually be a good idea. Maybe also allow people to buy said demo/painted army if they really like it, or just buy indivudal units (Could lead to armies filled with crap units, but if the influx of sold stuff is steady...).

Probably 80-90% of retail if store credit, significantly less if cash.

Price would fluctuate based on if it's assembled/painted or still on sprue, etc.

They could then turn around and sell for an additional 25% if assembled/basecoated, and 50-75% more (If not double) if painted (Depending on paint job).

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Starter sets we know the reason why they're not doing it. The limited edition models took up casting and sculpting time, while the boxes themselves always had to be handpacked by and large.
"Bulk deals" I don't know why they do not do them. They used to do them, but I'd assume it's just a question of stock management.

Yes, I meant starter set in terms of a battalion box which actually had some value in terms of an army (basically what Kirasu was saying).

So a Space Marine one could be...

Space Marine Commander
10 Tactical Marines
5 Scouts

Cost of items separately = £52.50
Suggested Starter Set Cost = £40.00

Tell me new Space Marine players wouldn't snap that up.

Or 10 tactical marines and 1 Rhino, or a dreadnaught and a Drop Pod. GW needs to start implementing a "People who bought this also bought..." suggestion policy, either online or in the store.

Seems like it'd both sell more stuff as well as help new people see what units can have good synergy (At least in my examples.)

Flashman wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Starter sets we know the reason why they're not doing it. The limited edition models took up casting and sculpting time, while the boxes themselves always had to be handpacked by and large.
"Bulk deals" I don't know why they do not do them. They used to do them, but I'd assume it's just a question of stock management.

Yes, I meant starter set in terms of a battalion box which actually had some value in terms of an army (basically what Kirasu was saying).

So a Space Marine one could be...

Space Marine Commander
10 Tactical Marines
5 Scouts

Cost of items separately = £52.50
Suggested Starter Set Cost = £40.00

Tell me new Space Marine players wouldn't snap that up.

New players alone wouldn't snap that up. I can't think of many Marine players who would pass up something like that, considering the Commander has a load of bits that people want on him.

You're kind of going away from "starter" territory and more towards "good deal" territory. Starters are not necessarily required to be a "good deal", but it doesn't hurt.

If it were me, personally, doing these starter sets?
I'd do the following for Marines:
Marine Commander+Command Squad--$20USD for the Commander and $35 for the Command Squad. We'll again go for around $50 for both.
15 Tactical Marines--Combat Squads are $25USD, Tactical Squads are $35USD so we'll put this around $50 for both.
A single Devastator Sprue--I've been getting these for around $3 off bitz vendors. We'll say it retails for something like $5 maybe?
and
10 Scouts(5 bolters, 5 Snipers)--50USD retail.
You're looking at $155 in product, and a fairly flexible force that can allow you to have some spare models to swap Heavy Weapon types in/out as you want. Sell that for $90 and anyone would be foolish to not pick them up if they want to start Marines.
Included within would be a basic army list, basically a 'plug and play' army for you.

Basic army lists would be a good idea, especially advice (Sanctioned or under the table) from the redshirts about units/strategies to use, and ones to avoid (Such as my previous example of Tyranid Warriors, which are much better served by Hormagaunts in many roles).

Plus, if GW can somehow get a legal minimum army (2 Troop squads and an HQ) for =<$20, hitting at or under the impulse buy range of $20 for a playable force (Maybe not very good, but playable and useable as a later part of a bigger army), this would go a HUGE way towards getting new gamers into the hobby.
True, this would undercut the Starter Box a bit, but if I could get a playable force (no rulebooks, no dice, no templates, no extra stuff, and not playable at more than 500 pts tops) for $20 and my pal could do the same, we could play a short game or two at a GW store (With redshirts both showing us how the game works and encouraging us to buy the rulebook/units/dice/extra stuff) without as big of a financial investment.
This practice would be simialr to CCGs or Micro-Transaction "Play-for-Free" games online: Small, easily affordable initial investment, with encouragement to expand and become competitive with further purchases, rather than set the hard minimum of ~$50 for splitting a Starter Box between you and your buddy (As a younger kid, I rarely had $50 if ever. But $20 was within my means much more often).

Just a thought...

There is no way in hell they will sell a "legal minimum" army for under or around $20 USD.

It's just not feasible.

Oh, not legal for tournament. But enough so a player can get a box of models (Which are no-glue-requires like AoBR or IoB), and play them against a friend. The idea would be so that you can play a quick game without dropping $50+ jsut to play a minimum-sized game.
Perhaps a cheap 5 man Combat squad of SM and 10 boyz or whatever is equivalent, for $20; Not enough to play a full army with, but enough to learn the rules of the game, roll some dice, and actually own a model (Instead of borrowing a GW store army and window-shopping but not buying anything in the end.)

No, that's what I'm saying.

You cannot do it.

The 5 man Combat Squad of Marines is $25.

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Heres the problem. People are willing to buy 2 sets at 41, so why lower the price to 35. You are losing 6 for no reason.

jbunny wrote:

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Heres the problem. People are willing to buy 2 sets at 41, so why lower the price to 35. You are losing 6 for no reason.

Ah yes, but how willing? A fall in sales revenue and indeed actual sales volumes, suggests to me not that willing. Hence this thread...

Flashman wrote:

jbunny wrote:

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Heres the problem. People are willing to buy 2 sets at 41, so why lower the price to 35. You are losing 6 for no reason.

Ah yes, but how willing? A fall in sales revenue and indeed actual sales volumes, suggests to me not that willing. Hence this thread...

Or it might suggest that people have already bought their two sets the year before.

Wargaming is, in most cases, a one time purchase. Once you buy your Assault Squads, you don't necessarily need more unless you radically shift your army's composition.

I would like to ask people who are pooh-pooing all the suggestions about what to do, what makes them think that GW's current strategy is working?

Flashman wrote:e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Shhhh. According to GW's logic, they'll soon repackage them in packs of 3 at £13.50... that way you'll need to buy 4 boxes to get a full squad.

Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

The reason is because they lose money.

You only have to look at ebay to see that people are buying multiple starter sets and selling the stuff they don't want, which in turn drives down the prices on the second hand market, which loses more sales.

The issue is more pronounced with some amies. Two Ogre battleboxes, with a bit of imagination. could easily make largish army - the savings being way more than the declared five or ten pounds, because the company is losing money on characters, so the saving more like £40-£50.

Flashman wrote:

jbunny wrote:

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

Heres the problem. People are willing to buy 2 sets at 41, so why lower the price to 35. You are losing 6 for no reason.

Ah yes, but how willing? A fall in sales revenue and indeed actual sales volumes, suggests to me not that willing. Hence this thread...

There is a difference between not willing to purchase (ie, only run 5 man squad, or no assault squads) and already purchased.

KilKrazy@ There is also a difference in saying your idea is not good, and saying GW is doing things right.

marielle wrote:

Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

The reason is because they lose money.

You only have to look at ebay to see that people are buying multiple starter sets and selling the stuff they don't want, which in turn drives down the prices on the second hand market, which loses more sales.

Splitting sets is harder to sell on ebay is harder than you think. It may seem feasible, but once you have taken away listing fees, the 10% final selling fee and finally paypal's cut, you aren't left with much (or indeed any) profit.

jbunny wrote:KilKrazy@ There is also a difference in saying your idea is not good, and saying GW is doing things right.

What KK is saying is that for the purposes of having a discussion, declaring an idea to be rubbish is more agreeable if you come up with your own alternative

1. Let's interact with our customer base. Yes, I know we speak at them lots already and tell them what we think they want to hear, but let's actually hear what they've got to say. I think we agree that designing our rulebooks and miniature ranges by mass internet committee would be a bad idea, but we can get a broad idea of what people want from our games before we design each rulebook/army book. And whenever we come up with a really wacky, game changing idea, we can get everyone (i.e. not just our mates) to try it out first.

2. How many armies does the average gamer actually need? I mean really? Yes, there a few crazy kids who collect legions and legions of Space Marine chapters, but most are only going to collect one or two for each system right? So once they've got one, why do they need to buy anything else? Perhaps we need a subset of smaller games that will keep gamers amused between major projects. These could even be used to introduce younger gamers to the hobby too. It's not like we'd need to update the rules regularly, just keep enough new stuff flowing into each game so that people stay interested.

3. And along these lines, isn't a standard points value for a game of 2000-3000pts too high for new gamers? Won't they just buy a few boxes to begin with, feel overwhelmed with how long it's taking to be able to actually play and then run back to the X-box (perhaps making a quick visit to ebay first to sell off all this plastic that they're never going to use)? Maybe we need to stop pushing 2000 points as the target and actively promote smaller games so that people get started quickly and their armies are more likely to evolve over time.

1. Agreed - there are many ways to do this. If they have a new edition of the game they can have a Beta weekend at Warhammer World, inviting the regular tournament players to take part with the designers. They could then give their feedback and the designers could take stuff onboard. Then before the release they can have an open event, where people buy tickets to try the game before its actual release - donating the procedes to a good cause (Help the Heroes etc - of course the Warhammer world store will be open for business), thus creating positive news and doing a little good in the mean time.

2. I think the loss of 'Specialist' Games is a major thing - I know the main games are still with us in some fashion, but in terms of getting into the GW hobby, with its immense amount of lore, the old boxed sets were fantastic - also it offers variety. I think that GW's decision to abandon these games has let their competitors into the market a lot easier than it might have been. As a kid I got boxed sets of pretty much everything - Titan Legions, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Gorkamorka, Battlefleet Gothic, Warhammer Quest - if I started earlier I probably would have got Man O War and Space Marine as well - I even got some Space Marine stuff As a kid you seldom have the attention span or knowledge it takes to build and paint a whole army, much less learning the in's and out's of the lore - so you tend to get random stuff (or the above mentioned box games) in the mean time. My next door neighbours kid likes painting and just gets random stuff all the time. Armies are great, but the skirmish scale games are fantastic as they aren't such a big investment - yet they help build enthusiasm for the hobby. If a kid just buys one or two of these games, paints etc then they'll either get the bug, or they won't. Despite GW's shenanigans and over-priced products I'd still like 1,500 points of every army - although at this stage in my life that's more or less an impossibility. People don't need big armies, but people like collecting - an army is never truly finished for many hobbyists.

3. The lack of Border Patrol rules or missions that use smaller forces might be an issue - I certainly think they should be available for people to dowload or to pick up for free in store. To start small and build up would be my advice to a parent (probably why I'd never work for GW ) which is what those boxed sets did - they were complete games in a box, including scenery - done. Now you have to spend about £60-70 just to get a couple of Troop choices, a character and a Codex in store of varying points value - that said I don't think 300-500pts of 8th Ed fantasy will be much fun

I was just looking through some old White Dwarfs, before GW went public I believe (when did they go public?) and their output was amazing - the variety in store, the store opening deals or summer deals they used to do etc...They used to sell 2,000pts armies in a box for £100 - back in 2nd Ed 40k when you had about 20-40 models in an army on average and when base characters were easily 200pts+. It would be easy for them to sell bundle deals, even by sweetening the pot by adding a free blister. They could do deals on some of their sample armies if they wanted to. I think Intro Summers would be a great idea - I saw an old ad where they did the Boxed Game, a Codex and a Paint Set for £x off - up to 33%, have a discount on new stores opening and not only would you attract new customers, but established ones as well - get them in the store and help spread their enthusiasm for the hobby during the recruitment period.

Speaking of WD - the amount of rules and lore they published way back really helped me become hooked into the 'fluff' - even if I didn't play a certain game it didn't matter - you would get random rules, including points values, and backgrounds for certain special characters, random history of 40k and Warhammer, even mini-stories - without this material I doubt I would still have an interest in GW, or even wargaming in general (I've always been more of a painting type). Basically I feel all GW need to do is what they used to, but turn it up to 11!

Splitting sets is harder to sell on ebay is harder than you think. It may seem feasible, but once you have taken away listing fees, the 10% final selling fee and finally paypal's cut, you aren't left with any profit.

Really?

marielle wrote:

Splitting sets is harder to sell on ebay is harder than you think. It may seem feasible, but once you have taken away listing fees, the 10% final selling fee and finally paypal's cut, you aren't left with any profit.

Really?

Yes, really. On most occassions you will break even or make the odd pound here or there. Factor in the amount of time and hassle it takes to do (and your time has value too), generally speaking it's not worth it. The only time I've made a siginficant profit is from selling a spare copy of Space Hulk.

@ Warpspawned - Indeed, in the old days GW went for variety and although I obviously don't know for certain, I think this helped build the foundation that made them a profitable business.

I definately agree with the guys that say the games need to scale down better, Being able to play small quick games without too much investment is a great way to attract people into the hobby.

Also second the specialist games range as an awesome money spinner, If they were more widely played/available with pretty new models I would love to own a couple of Necromunda gangs or Blood Bowl teams. These are also great introductory games for aspiring hobbyists. Not to mention the crossover value of games like the old WH quest box set. That kit was an awesome game that came with a nice variety of WH models to paint and game with, not to mention it made an awesome starter for an orc and goblin army, The additional characters were unique and made great heroes for peoples armies, and the lore available in the books/adventures could really expand your warhammer knowledge.

I love playing warhammer and 40k but I often find I don't have time for a game, If myself and a friend could dig out a nice GW skirmish game that was playable in an hour or so then I would definitely buy the starter sets.

I think something that would help is setting the "norm" for points level alot lover then what they are now. Would make the game alot more easy to get into.

Yes, really. On most occassions you will break even or make the odd pound here or there. Factor in the amount of time and hassle it takes to do (and your time has value too), generally speaking it's not worth it. The only time I've made a siginficant profit is from selling a spare copy of Space Hulk.

I didn't say anything about making a significant profit, my point was that you don't lose money (if you are smart), and you get what you do want cheaper than if you had bought the equivilent from GW - particularly if you bought the set from an online discounter in the first place. Plus the people buying the excess on ebay are getting product at below retail price, and in doing so are not spending a penny with the company. The concept of the starter set in it's current form is wasteful and costly. It would better to have a starter set for each army, containing the small rulebook, with a collection of models that makes buying multiples unappealling, but gives a couple of newbs a fun battle.

Were I on the board I would be questioning why your solution is appears to be based on reinforcing this loss by cutting prices, and giving product away.

I would also be questioning why the retail division isn't used in an imaginative and creative way, and are currently employing the worst form of retail sales techniques. I think the current moves to make the shops the centre of the 'hobby; are good, the problem is that once you have people in the shop the sales techniques are so poor that they are as likely to scare people away as draw them in.

One suggestion I would make to my fellow board members would be to run yearly campaigns, that actually influence the fluff, the storyline, and the army books/codices, and to use the demographic data obtained to more accurately target the marketing campaign. These campaigns would offer the perfect opportunity to push the slow selling lines.

And perhaps most important, I would use my position as a board member to insist that the tone of White Dwarf is aimed at literate intelligent readers.

They need to realize that not everyone's going to be getting their GW stuff from GW shops, and stop setting policy as though that's the case. Yes, it actually makes perfect sense to set prices up like that, if those are the only minis that you're selling. All the GW minis are actually fairly equally priced in terms of points/dollars/pounds ratio- however, when you have a shelf full of $45 blister packs next to a $30 set of 2 squads and a warjack, (though I may exagerate) guess which one people are going to gravitate to?


And the thing about having fans of Warhammer buy GW stock isn't so we can dictate policy, it's so they'll actually listen to us. Opinions suddenly become a lot more important when those people own a quarter of your paycheck.

Kilkrazy wrote:I would like to ask people who are pooh-pooing all the suggestions about what to do, what makes them think that GW's current strategy is working?

They've not been bought out by Hasbro yet, so it must be working to a degree.

Hey, maybe they should be bought out by Hasbro. Then we could get legitimate MLP:FiM/Warhammer 40K crossover expansion sets!

Flashman wrote:Yes, better bulk deals and actual starter sets would almost certainly help sales. You almost think it's so blindingly obvious there has to be a reason they're not doing it.

e.g. Assault Marines currently come in packs of 5 at £20.50. Some people might want to field them in squads of 10, so is it such a monumental ask to sell two lots of the sprue in a bigger box for £35.00?

How about Eldar players stuck buying 5 Aspect warriors w/Exarch when they can only take 10? How silly is that? The only advantage I see is that you could buy two boxes and get both variants of wargear represented with the Exarch, other than that, it makes no sense.

Or a box of Guants that has 12 Termagaunts and 12 Hormagaunts with 3 Ripper bases? Oooooooooo aaaaahhhhhh Maybe they could sell them in increments of 16 since that's the half number.

The Space Wolf Battle Force is one of the better values, while the Tyranid one is god awful.