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lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Probably in their agreement with Wizards to stock the product.

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Because there are two separate things called theory and practice. In theory, running a demo or sponsored event is supposed to result in increased sales as those participating are so inspired by the products that they want to spend money on them right away in the store you're playing in. In practice, plenty of people never have any intention of spending the money regardless of whether they had fun while others will take advantage of the opportunity presented to learn a new game and promptly order it... online at the cheapest possible discount. Having some barrier to entry for the event keeps most of those two classes of cheap gamers away. Lets be honest, the purpose of anything in a store (whether its products or activities or even wall fixtures) SHOULD be to sell you something and assuming otherwise is just plain naive. Stores hope for the former to show up but should have a plan for dealing with the latter.

I've tried to sign up for local tourneys that had admission prices that weren't required to be paid ahead of time to guarantee a spot; every time one was run at my FLGS, people signed up right away and took all the available spots and left me without one. When I'd inquire the next week about the tourney (the store is too far to drive for just a gaks and giggles visit), I'd hear that half the people who "reserved" never showed. When they switched to prepayment to guarantee a spot, all of a sudden you could register the day before. Some sort of price, however small (like the 62 cents per week mikhalia quoted) tends to attract people more serious about learning the game and subsequently purchasing it. Until a store owner runs a bunch of these types of events, he or she doesn't know the breakup of his local gaming community.

Pay where you play.

I have no problem with 'entry fees' to pay for space, manhours, food, materials and all that.

I think if the primary goal is to move product, then I would make everyone pay an entry fee and then give out door prizes in store credit. I have attended events where they charge 25$ for the full day, provide pizza and drinks and a well-run event then give out like 10 or so 'door prizes' for 25$ gift certificates. So there is a good chance participants will get basically a 'free' event and the store is guaranteed to move 250$ worth of product on top of anything else they sell.

Stores should expect that an event 'moves product' but often it doesn't. Turning admission into store credit then moves product.

No one should expect free gaming... Paying where you play when it comes to events is the 20% tip for eating out in a restaurant.

I think the easiest way of running this and if it is being brought in to stop freeloading would be for the store to run a "Loyalty Card" scheme.
Each purchase gets X amount towards the cost of the cards to play in the event thus meaning that regular customers get to take part for free.
Although if i was the manager and i had a few really good customers then i would quite simply kick a few packs to them for free.

nkelsch wrote:Stores should expect that an event 'moves product' but often it doesn't.

It's not always an immediate return... but part of the point of getting people to play in your store is also to build loyalty. So while they might not buy something that day, they may very well come back and buy something later.

Paying where you play when it comes to events is the 20% tip for eating out in a restaurant.

You're going to run into cultural barriers with that analogy... tipping in restaurants and cafes is much more of a voluntary thing over here, and is generally more of a thank you for exceptional service than something that is expected. And it would have to be very, very good service indeed before I would be considering leaving anything approaching 20%...



It's worth considering as well that a lot of the time running events doesn't actually cost the store a great deal beyond the wages of the staff member running them (or whatever freebies they're giving the volunteer doing it). I don't know if they still do it, but Wizards used to send out free monthly packs to stores that included scenarios and prizes for that week's gaming. It's not uncommon for CCG companies to provide prize support in the form of free boosters and the like for sanctioned events. Other miniature companies have done similar things on and off over the years...

If people aren't buying actual product during the event, make up for it by selling drinks and munchies. You have a captive audience for several hours... fattening them up will make you far more popular than forcing them to buy product in order to play.

I wouldn't mind having to buy something to play in an event- but I don't see why you wouldn't just make an entrance fee, instead.

I do pay where I play, whenever I can... but generally not much on the day of an event. Usually just glue/primer/supplies or the like that I realized I needed when pulling out my army.

Now when a store offers a special discount the day of an event, my wallet empties rather quickly (looking at you, mikhaila!)

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

I couldn't agree more; your post summed up every thing I could had said on the matter. So I'll spare readers the novel I generally write.

Doesn't seem like a lot to ask. But than again, I always buy something when I go in to play games.

Something like this needs to be handled case by case: If someone walks in, solely to loiter/not participate, charge an entrance fee. If someone comes in with a friend, with no plans on playing but wants to see how the game handles, don't charge him. If you can address someone by name, don't charge them either.

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Generic reasons other stores have given:

1. You keep hoping people will suprise you and buy something.
2. You have dungeon masters and regular customers who will be disappointed if you cancel it.
3. You'll be the bad guy if you cancel things.
4. Every gamer will immediately remind you of the 1.00 dice they bought two months ago, as justification of their existance.
5. When one of the idiots tells you "games should be free! It's a constitutional right!", I'll club him to death and go to jail.
6. Didn't know it would suck when we set it up, and we keep hoping it will get better.
7. Someone each week buys that one item that lets you justify the 13 that freeload.
8. You're at least offering a service to the community.
9. It wouldn't be bad if it didn't draw out all the ultrageeks that can't seem to find a game anywhere else in the world
10. Tables are just sitting there anyway.
11. Gives the MTG players someone to look down upon.
12. Lets you annoy the MTG players by having a RPG group two tables over.
13. Nostalgia
14. Helps sign up new people for the WOTC OP system, which might help with MTG events and getting product early.

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

Where I play encounters, players have to pay a $5 entry fee, this fee is converted to a $5 gift card from the store. You don't lose any money but the store makes due.

fellblade wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

See, but is that fair? I'm not saying they shouldn't support the store, or at the very least give up their table when a paying customer wants it. But to ban them from the store... I don't know, I just thought game stores were supposed to be places to hang out, and play games. Should Warhammer/warmachine players be banned because they already have their entire army purchased?

I even suggested this at my FLGS. Now mind you we have roughly a dozen newbie players playing at 1,000pts this go around. But the store charges 5 bucks a head per league night and dumps that back into prize support for the events. But you can get really great prizes. Last week someone got a Baneblade as a door prize... Stuff like that makes it totally worth it.

I'll throw in my two cents:

I'll often purchase something every couple of times I visit a store. I mainly visit 2 stores - one that I order everything from, and another that actually has the stuff I want in stock. Both of which are excellent stores, and I'd definitely miss them if they ever closed, so I always try to add a bit of my own patronage.

A funny story: The one store recently moves to a much more prominent and, frankly, nicer location. It went from a tiny store and semi-tiny basement to a larger, single floor, window-intense store on a very busy street in a nice shopping district. Not surprisingly, the owner has gotten an increase in foot traffic and random people who are intrigued, and he's always happy to walk people around the store and explain what the board games, rpgs, and miniature games are that he sells.

The point of this? He finds it amusing that non-gaming people are surprised when he tells them that people can play at his store for free.

mikhaila wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Generic reasons other stores have given:

1. You keep hoping people will suprise you and buy something.
2. You have dungeon masters and regular customers who will be disappointed if you cancel it.
3. You'll be the bad guy if you cancel things.
4. Every gamer will immediately remind you of the 1.00 dice they bought two months ago, as justification of their existance.
5. When one of the idiots tells you "games should be free! It's a constitutional right!", I'll club him to death and go to jail.
6. Didn't know it would suck when we set it up, and we keep hoping it will get better.
7. Someone each week buys that one item that lets you justify the 13 that freeload.
8. You're at least offering a service to the community.
9. It wouldn't be bad if it didn't draw out all the ultrageeks that can't seem to find a game anywhere else in the world
10. Tables are just sitting there anyway.
11. Gives the MTG players someone to look down upon.
12. Lets you annoy the MTG players by having a RPG group two tables over.
13. Nostalgia
14. Helps sign up new people for the WOTC OP system, which might help with MTG events and getting product early.

All of those things sound like excuses to stay in abusive relationships...

Slarg232 wrote:

fellblade wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

See, but is that fair? I'm not saying they shouldn't support the store, or at the very least give up their table when a paying customer wants it. But to ban them from the store... I don't know, I just thought game stores were supposed to be places to hang out, and play games. Should Warhammer/warmachine players be banned because they already have their entire army purchased?

I would bet that they weren't banned, just told they couldn't use the space to play, and they just never showed up again. As to "Fair", what they were doing was not fair at all. It was costing the store money, and costing other players games, and probably upsetting players that would have given support to the store if they had got a game in.

And I've yet to see many Warhammer players that quit buying and 'finish an army'. Maybe for a few weeks, or even months. But if they keep playing, they generally keep buying. I don't have any problem with two guys walking in, playing a game, and buying nothing. I'll get their money eventually.)

Ugavine wrote:I agree with the store that players using its facilities should be customers, but I don't think it's fair to force players to buy a specific item, especially the rubbish Fortune Cards. The store should just have players produce a receipt from within the last month.

This sums up my sentiments exactly. I’m all for gamers having to be a frequent customer of some sort or pay a rental fee to use facilities. Having to buy a specific item sounds like an underhanded approach by the store to move excess stock that would most likely not sell otherwise. All in all an odd and clumsy approach to ward off freeloaders.

Considering that is how Encounters works, I think the only solution would be to either play on the D&D Encounters or not... Simple as that.

As far making a purchase in general, I think that some people should remember that entrance/rental fees are greatly appreciated, but if there is no product turnover, there is no reason for your FLGS to remain a game store (and in certain cases, friendly). Buying everything off of website, then showing up to your store of choice with a whole bunch of new shinies is an asinine move. BUY SOMETHING! It's what really pays the rent and wants the store owner to keep stock in the store!

The host of Ard Boyz last year told us that the in-store tables had a $5 rental/receipt fee. Either you paid $5 to play, or you purchased $5 in merchandise. Kept the store happy, the games equipped/fed, and everyone made out fine in the long run.

Stop complaining that retail areas don't provide a free place for you and your friends to play. They have bills, too. And if you ain't helping to pay them, you have no room to complain!

insaniak wrote:

You're going to run into cultural barriers with that analogy... tipping in restaurants and cafes is much more of a voluntary thing over here, and is generally more of a thank you for exceptional service than something that is expected. And it would have to be very, very good service indeed before I would be considering leaving anything approaching 20%...

In the US, if you don't tip, you are stealing money from your servers pocket in many places. Many servers make 5-6 dollars under minimum wage and are taxed with the expectation that they make up that minimum wage on tips. If they don't have the tips they still get taxed. Some states allow workers to work for just tips. Also, when you Tip the server has to pay based on the balance of the check, 1% goes to the busboy, 1% to the bartender and 1% to the restaurant. So if you really want the server to get no tip you at least need to tip 3% or else your server has to pay out of pocket to make up the difference. This is why there is forced gratuity on large checks. Anything less than 3% tip is theft, Anything less than 10% tip is cruel and denying an employee (even a bad one) a living wage.

The long and the short, if you can't afford to pay that service fee, then don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay MSRP and pay where you play and have to buy everything online to get a 20% discount, then stay home. Consider the lack of internet discounter your 'tip' for using the space someone pays rent on. Also remember, for every table you use and you don't buy things, you are preventing other potential customers gaming space and maybe they would. Personally, I don't feel right using up a store owners space for free when I have no intention to become a customer or purchase anything. It is like going to a restaurant and getting a table for 10, sitting by myself and ordering water and eating my own sandwich and leaving without tipping. Not only do they make no money off me, but I have prevented them from making money off their own table space which could have been used for paying customers.

The current league i'm involved in has a buy in program i'm a fan of. Its a 40k escalation league where you are charged $10 per event which are 1x per month and run sfor 6 months. This $10 is put on a gift card for you, which you may spend that day, or continue to add onto.

Basically you are agreeing to spend $60 in 6 months to be in the escalation league. Considering the event has prize support, I think the manager is being very very generous. There is no paint requirements, there is a painting score however. If your army is not fully painted, your best model is rated, then the score is halved.

I think it is fair enough. For 40k tournaments I have often had to pay a small buy in fee of $10-$20.

Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

When my kids were alot smaller(and messy) I would leave a larger tip just due to the fact that they had to clean up when trouble my kids would leave. Mac cheese on the seat, floor, where ever in a fit of happiness or hissy fit it would end up.....yeah they have to bus the tables, but some things are a bit more then expected.

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

I won't call it theft, but I won't eat out if I'm not willing to tip.

Paul wrote:

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

I agree with this option, from the start or if you want to jump in it's 8.00 bucks, lets other trollers as well to pass by without speaking.

nkelsch wrote:In the US, if you don't tip, you are stealing money from your servers pocket in many places.

I would sooner say the part where people get paid below minimum wage is where the stealing happens, but that's just me.


Anyway, the requirement to buy store credit to participate seems like a decent middle ground, it makes sure people spend money but they still get their full money's worth and can buy what they like.

mikhaila wrote:Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

Gamers in general but especially pen-and-paper RPGers, of which I think this game system is basically an offshoot, are in my personal experience some of the pettiest and cheapest people in the world. I've never run into such a pervasive sense of 'give me free stuff/I have a right to use your space and resources' as with RPG groups.

As a minis gamer, I'm used to near-constant cash outlay to keep myself updated with new models, paint, modeling supplies, and releases. I don't think pen-paper RPGers have this same mindset, so I'm not the least bit surprised by the squawking at having to pay for anything, regardless of how nominal.

I'd require a flat fee of $10 up front, and gamers get a $10 gift certificate to the store or, if it's a competitive format, 100% prize payout to 1st, 2nd, 3rd place in store credit.

This would be in line with every other event I've ever played, and I don't doubt would help to sift out the remoras from the rest of the fish.

carmachu wrote:

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

When my kids were alot smaller(and messy) I would leave a larger tip just due to the fact that they had to clean up when trouble my kids would leave. Mac cheese on the seat, floor, where ever in a fit of happiness or hissy fit it would end up.....yeah they have to bus the tables, but some things are a bit more then expected.

This! I so leave 'I'm sorry, don't think I'm a bad person/parent/human being' tips all the time.

Oh i've spent time in the US, I know what the expectation is on tipping but it's still a choice. Regardless of how important you feel tipping is it's not compulsory. It's entirely up to the individual customer as to how they handle tips.