Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

If it was a good store and the players were good and what i had to buy was something i might like then i probably wouldn't mind.

Standard practise at my local 40K tournament.

I have no issue with it.

The age old question. It certainly applies to other games. Every time I go into my GW store to use their tables to game I wonder if the manager is going to tell me I have to buy something to continue using their tables. I buy secondhand stuff and avoid that place like the plague but sometimes it's the only place to get a game. If it was a reasonable price, which $8 for 3 months surely is, then yes, that's ok. I pay $12 per month for Xbox Live no matter how much downloadable content I buy. If it gets out of hand I would consider trying to move the league to player run rather than store run.

The store has a point in that it does cost them to operate the event, so a little purchase would be good. But forcing them to buy a specific product, especially one as dislikable as the fortune cards, is probably a little too far.

I feel fortunate my local store has no such rules, though I buy my stuff through him anyways. It's more of an unspoken agreement around here. In general, it's a little uncool to never spend anything where you play, especially if you're taking up table space regularly and making use of stuff like terrain. I once knew a guy that would go to free store-run MtG events with prize and brag loudly he only bought 'great deals' online. The store owners weren't even too bothered about ignoring him because he never spent any money there anyways and 'mysteriously' managed to never give him the random door prizes. I feel that, if you have disposable income to put towards gaming at all, you should be able to put at least a bit of it through the shop you play at.

Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

Paul wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

Except, when the players purchase something, they get something to take home other than the experience, after paying admission.

Financially, the store would be better off in terms of simply taking admission fees, but the players are better off in the present scenario.

It does tend to keep the loitering down, too. A lot of people in our local game store environment like to dawdle at the store, picking over the wares, and never contributing to the store at all. Once you've broken the seal, they become a little more generous with the cash. And, after all, stores are in this to make money, too, you know. They can't pay the rent with the hot air coming out of a gamer's mouth...

I agree with the store that players using it's facilities should be customers, but I don't think it's fair to force players to buy a specific item, especially the rubbish Fortune Cards. The store should just have players produce a receipt from within the last month.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:They can't pay the rent with the hot air coming out of a gamer's mouth...

Actually, I know an Engineer from Xstrata who could...

Geothermal is booming... imagine hooking all those mouth-breathers up to the system

Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

I see it both ways.

Its good to support your local store.

But if they had a free event, that brought people in, then started charging for it because people were playing due to it was free.. Then meh, i would just not play that game.

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$. Afterall, Games Day, although on a much larger scale, is similar in many ways to this event. You are paying entry to participate in a few events (if you choose to) while being bombarded with advertising.

lord_blackfang wrote:I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

Based upon the facts in the OP, this was being implemented in order to cut down on those who come in only for the event and do not make their purchases in store regardless. While the discount system is viable, perhaps if you rewarded paying customers with a free pass to the events, this would work in the store's favour. As they have already spent in the store and you are not giving away twice (pass and discounts).

My thoughts on the subject.

If its a league then by all meens charge me an admission to play, if you really like me allow me to cover it with a minimum purchase, if you really really like me comp me since I spend $1000's at your store each year. If you require me to purchase a specific product that I don't want then you better expect that this is going to turn me off from your store.

I'm okay with entrance fees. If a store wanted to encourage
product purchases, they could set a minimum buy good only
for the day of the event that replaces the entrance fee. Or they
could discount items related to the event.

Another thing is if a store was going to require product purchases
then the store better have everything in stock. I don't want to
buy something I don't want just to participate in an event.

AvatarForm wrote:insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

No, I'm not. The fact that they're getting more than just admission is the whole point of the exercise.

If it's a small fee I don't mind but I want to spend Hundreds of Dolloars a Year for entry!!!

It's not that much money. At my LGS I spend money there on paints and miniatures. But get £10 of for every £80 a loalty scheme thing. Then for gaming it costs £6 a month. I could easily go play at GW for free but I understand that he needs to charge so he can make money and pay bills. So I have no problem with paying money.

beowulfhunter wrote:This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

Of course it ignores the fact that I believe WOTC was pushing the use of fortune cards for their events, last I looked.

Its crappy. Just charge me a flat fee for usage. Dont make me buy stuff I dont want. Thats a bigger turn off then a fee.

beowulfhunter wrote:This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

Do the encounters force you to use the Fortune Cards or can you play without them? What if someone comes in for the first time and already has the cards? Do you require them to buy them again? I think a better option is to require a player to register for the series at the cost of $8 and then IMMEDIATELY give them an $8 gift certificate for use at the store or a set of the cards. The store still makes a 40% cut but it doesn't penalize new players to the area or local people just trying it out for gaks and giggles while at the same time discouraging internet-store only buyers who come to play. Simply charging $8 as a fee (which isn't what you're suggesting) might engender some anger in certain customers so I see that as the least favorable option.

I agree with Insaniak, having events and people engaging in the hobby is good for a shop. It draws in new people and encourages people who already play to choose that LGS. Sure these people might not buy everytime, or maybe not at all but the more people you have in the store the more sales you will get. Having a large number of players is important to a store, they might not contribute anything themselves but they make it more enjoyable for otehr customers who will buy. I know that I wouldn't go to a LGS that has a very small number of visiters however good they are because I will get bored playing just them.

I'm not against entrance fees but only when the store is actually doing something serious for the customers. I don't agree with them charging for something small like the encounters the OP mentions. if it's a private event or a competition then I would be fine paying an entrance fee but minor events during the opening times should be free IMO- the store should be getting enough advertising out of it.

If the owner was set on charging I think it would been better just to charge an entrace fee, at least people don't feel like they are being tricked into buying stuff they don't want. They are being told they are getting something for their money but if they don't need the cards they certainly aren't. Personally I think the best way if you have to charge is to make there a minimum purchase per month. At least people actually get somethng useful.

Thanks for the imput guys. I do think for a store to be sucessful they NEED TO HOLD PUBLIC EVENTS! I figure the money I spend in events to play provies me with fellow players/opponents who I would not normally get a game against so it is money well spent.

I think this is one of those issues that has no clear cut answer and someone is always going to be put off.

As to the question if if they are required, no, suggested would be better and many of us have donated our cards for people to play with.

I don't mind something that's $10 or under to be able to play. It does keep out the loiterers. But I don't like the idea of having to purchase something if I already own it, so make it an $8 entry fee that in turn gives you an $8 gift card to use at the store for whatever you want. The money stays in the store (it is a business after all) and you get to play without a bunch of loitering folks. Win!

Even LFGS (GW or not) need to generate revenue to stay in business. They either need to charge entry fees, "club" dues, or "purchase to play" in order to support the otherwise free gaming areas.

Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

malfred wrote:Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

mikhaila wrote:

malfred wrote:Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

14 people with 2 Dungeon Masters seems about right for your store, but if it was 16 people showing up and borrowing store material every week for 13 weeks straight in a shop meant for maybe 8-10 people tops--I'd definitely institute some kind of small purchase thing if it were me, at least to try to encourage some turnaround or people scheduling stuff rather than simply showing up and bumming store material off the racks.

If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?