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I know at my FLGS there's a small amount of hostility between the roleplayers and the minis guys. Admittedly, minis players use more tables (only two per 6x4), but we're all buying product. The roleplayers show up, sometimes buy a book, and camp at a table for hours being loud.

The best part was when the owner put a table in a side room for them to use, and they still used the common gaming area, becuase too many of the players couldn't fit comfortably in the RP room.

People get salty over all kinds of dippy stuff, and this is one of them. It's a tough call for owners to avoid getting taken advantage of, while not alienating your base. I think that the approach usually matters a lot here, rather than the actual cost.

4M2A wrote:Oh i've spent time in the US, I know what the expectation is on tipping but it's still a choice. Regardless of how important you feel tipping is it's not compulsory. It's entirely up to the individual customer as to how they handle tips.

That makes you Mr. Pink then

sourclams wrote:As a minis gamer, I'm used to near-constant cash outlay to keep myself updated with new models, paint, modeling supplies, and releases. I don't think pen-paper RPGers have this same mindset, so I'm not the least bit surprised by the squawking at having to pay for anything, regardless of how nominal.

This is an interesting observation, it was actually covered on the THACO podcast once. The speaker actually admitted that he himself will plonk down $60 for one new model without thinking, while at the same time he will be reluctant to buy one $60 RPG book that could last him for years.

As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

lord_blackfang wrote:
This is an interesting observation, it was actually covered on the THACO podcast once. The speaker actually admitted that he himself will plonk down $60 for one new model without thinking, while at the same time he will be reluctant to buy one $60 RPG book that could last him for years.

Depends on the customer. I'm spending more now per month on RPG's then I am on models. Granted I have a subscription to paizo and pick up some frog god game items so it makes it easy.

sourclams wrote:As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

You're not trying to be condescending?

I think the idea that gamers in general are cheap is false. Gaming is a very expensive hobby, and while pen and paper gaming isn't as expensive as miniature wargaming, the rules sets and source books aren't cheap and they do add up.

When I got into RPGs it wasn't because it was cheap, it was because I liked the system. In my experience of playing with RPGers, most people are not only willing to buy the latest books, but anxiously await their release, much in the same way we look forward to new codexes or models. I don't know how many times I've told myself that I'm just going to buy the core rule books when a new RPG/edition came out, only to end up with a stack of source books that rarely get used.

I'm happy and willing to pay for any event with some kind of prize, whether it is store credit or even a trophy, but I'd never consider paying for the privilege to sit down at a game table for a game. I might not buy something every time i walk into my FLGS, but when I do, it's often a big hit. I also tend to make silly impulse purchases on occasion. Just the other day I popped in to pick up some Quickshade and walked out with Munchkin Booty and a few paint pots as well.

A good hobby store runs events to build it's customer base and loyalty. I'm a customer for life at my FLGS. I'm blessed to live near one of the best hobby shops, with a gaming space that's larger than most store's complete footprint. They have always had great attitudes about use of their space and the only times I've been turned away from getting a game in, is if there is already a large event taking up the entire area. Because of this I give my money to the store, not every time I walk in, but any time I need to purchase something game or comic related.

There are some super cheap gamers. Not in Gw, but look to historicals, boardgamers, TRPGs, etc., and you'll find some guys that won't spend a nickle.

Not every broad generalization requires somebody to post "but I'm X and certaiinly not Y."

And RPG players dont' have the fear of the shop closing that minis gamers have. You can play D&D around a dining room table, unlike 40k.

My vote is for it: it's better than being charged a nominal amount as a plain old entry fee - at least this way you actually get some other than the experience for it

I know a lot of stores where there's an entry fee or a minimum purchase amount to get into an event. Seems to be a pretty good compromise.

Also, not tipping is a pretty gakky thing to do.

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

This 100%

I spend money every time I go into my FLGS. sometimes its just a soda from the machine and a bag of chips, but I always purchase something.

We play once a week, 7 people our table. I am not sure if we would be there if they instituted some sort of pay to play policy. They have run a game room in their store for more than 10 years and it has always been free.

I could see having to purchase a gift certificate to the store instead of the product they specifically are telling people they need to buy, since I spend that money anyway its not a big deal.

But the couple have a point, why should they be forced to buy a product they will never use?

augustus5 wrote:Post

I would say that you are the ideal gamer, a gamer with an outlook very similar to myself, and the sort of gamer that hobby stores are delighted to recruit and that keep the hobby store going.

Based on my personal experience, this is not reflective of the general gaming crowd, and especially so for the bulk of the RPG crowd. I think minis gamers are used to cash outlay because you need 'stuff' in order to minis game, but RPGers I think are much more used to having one person buy a book/module and share out than to 'everybody buys in' systems.

Gamer B sitting next to Gamer A and asking to borrow his unopened box of Space Marine Scouts, and then his clippers, paint, glue, dice, ruler, and templates would probably be considered pretty unusual in most gaming circles. I regularly see this in pen-paper circles ("Hey, can I have a character sheet/borrow your pencil/use those dice/see your book?"). I have regularly seen a large % of younger or lower income gamers show up with literally nothing to a gaming event. I think this is part of a cultural difference between pen-paper gaming and other types.

And that's fine, unless you're trying to run a game store/event series and this particular demographic feels it is entitled to participate.

sourclams wrote:As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

And in turn, when the wargaming community buys everything on internet discounters and not from the store.... we get the wargaming group that buys very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end...

And then they see the MTG/Pokemon card customers who you can run a booster draft tourney or almost guarantee the sales of 2-3 boosters per kid for a 20-30 minute game come in and then the FLGS gives all the tables to card games on weekends as they shift the focus (and real estate) to paying customers... And then wargamers get to rot on Tuesday night in a corner...

Pay where you play is a way to tell your store owner "please don't replace wargaming with pokemon cards!!! Thanks for the service you provide!"

I think minis gamers are used to cash outlay because you need 'stuff' in order to minis game, but RPGers I think are much more used to having one person buy a book/module and share out than to 'everybody buys in' systems.

Totally agree. Usually the GM owns everything and everyone else gets almost no cost of entry. When I did RPGs that is how it was. If someone wanted to play, they bought the game and bought it to the group. Personally, I liked models so I would provide models for the group to make it more fun, but no one in the group had any interest in buying a model or painting it.

You can join a RPG grpup and never pay a dime... except for the occasional bag of cheetos and mountian dew.

sourclams wrote: I regularly see this in pen-paper circles ("Hey, can I have a character sheet/borrow your pencil/use those dice/see your book?"). I have regularly seen a large % of younger or lower income gamers show up with literally nothing to a gaming event. I think this is part of a cultural difference between pen-paper gaming and other types.

And that's fine, unless you're trying to run a game store/event series and this particular demographic feels it is entitled to participate.

That only lasts so long however. One might let one have some character sheets or borrow a book, but if they mooch on a regular basis, you'll see them gone sooner or later. Coming prepared to game after a while is part of the game as well.


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nkelsch wrote:

And in turn, when the wargaming community buys everything on internet discounters and not from the store.... we get the wargaming group that buys very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end...

And then they see the MTG/Pokemon card customers who you can run a booster draft tourney or almost guarantee the sales of 2-3 boosters per kid for a 20-30 minute game come in and then the FLGS gives all the tables to card games on weekends as they shift the focus (and real estate) to paying customers... And then wargamers get to rot on Tuesday night in a corner...

Pay where you play is a way to tell your store owner "please don't replace wargaming with pokemon cards!!! Thanks for the service you provide!"

Doesnt always work. I've seen it time and again even spending money, they eventually will kick you out because of how much space they/we take up. *shrug* Spending money doesnt always guarentee you being replaced.

nkelsch wrote:Good-to-know stuff on tipping

nklesch, just remember that you're post on an international forum. Our ways are certainly not the norm. I've been to France, England, Wales, Italy, and Mexico. What's expected in other countries varies widely.

Back on topic: I've only played 40k in a gaming store twice. Both times, I bought some stuff. Not because of guilt or expectations, but because I knew I was going there that week and had something missing from my list.

When i played Decipher's Star Wars CCG's and we'd have weekly game nights and monthly tournaments, I'd aways buy several packs from my FLGS. I'd even pre-order the newest box-sets from them. It cost 10-20% more than online shopping at that time, but they were providing me a place to play and supported a (at that time) very strong gamer community.

It was never expected that I buy something though. I've never been in the situation where I was told I had to buy something to play there. For tournaments, throwing $5 in the hat was fine because excellent prize support was given and our gaming tables were reserved for tournament days (in a rather busy store). I had absolutely no problem with that. I guess each store has to ask themselves are they getting their money back in the long run.

Come to think of it, most of us in my old RPG group ended up buying our own books. But we're all also mini gamers so we're used to spending a lot on the hobby. And most of us are borderline hoarders...

There's a clear collector mentality in a lot of gamers. Guys with shelves of source books aren't uncommon.

The point is, nobody can be cheap and play minis, or CCGs. You can be pretty cheap and play RPGs.

Paul wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

So you'd rather pay $8 for entry, then pay $8 for entry, and some cards?

Popsicle wrote:So you'd rather pay $8 for entry, then pay $8 for entry, and some cards?

There's a certain psychological difference between telling people 'You must pay an entry fee to play' (which people will be fine with so long as they don't feel it's excessive) and 'You must by this particular item from my store in order to play' (which they won't be, if that item is something they don't want'...

The fact that it's the same amount of money is largely irrelevant.

Besides, the store charging a fee to play in that game is better for the store, since all of the money goes straight to that event. Charge an $8 entry fee, the store gets $8 towards the cost of running the event. Require customers to buy an $8 item... the store gets, what? $2-$3 towards the cost of the event, depending on the margin on that particular product.

Yeah, and there's also a difference between stating that an event has value and should be paid for "this costs $8", and making it a throw in for another transaction "this comes free with a deck of cards."

My store generally does it this way: either pay an entrance fee of X dollars, or buy an item from the store worth Y dollars. This ensures that the store sees some compensation for running the event, and lets the user decide if they'd rather just pay the nominal fee or make a slightly larger purchase and get merchandise as well.

No amount of psychology surrounding the subject of "$8 and a pack of cards" is going to make my mind implode.

I can't speak to the store in particular, but it may just be desperation. A lot of gaming stores simply aren't doing very well at all, and rather than go out of business, people are trying stuff they might not have been willing to do before.

There's always been an unwritten rule that you support your FLGS for offering free things like open games, table space, terrain, etc., but I see A LOT of people who "violate" that unwritten rule. One of our FLGS runs the D&D encounters events, and they are ALWAYS well attended. The store goes from say, 16 people to 30+ for those events. I don't see much increase in business on those nights, though. The store carries some D&D books, but not a lot, and not multiple copies of any. I don't think they are seeing a big sales bump from doing it. Running D&D Encounters does allow them to get the D&D books before retail establishments that don't, though.

On the other hand, I've been in the store multiple times (heck, multiple times in the last MONTH), where players brag about not buying anything in the store, but shopping for the best deals online. If enough people violate a social compact, something will change.

Heck, a friend runs a Charity event with a $10 entry fee. There's TONS of opportunities to make additional donations. You can donate more money to "cheat" in every event (Warhammer, Munchkin, etc.). There's also a Charity auction at the event. The best turnout is for the RPGA event. There are more RPGA players than all the other people put together. On the other hand, I don't know that they get ANY money from them "cheating", and we see almost none of them at the auction. Plus, since they play the RPGA event all day, they don't even come to the other events where they might spend 'charity' money. So, just as my perception, the largest group of players generates the least amount of charity, per capita.

This type of behavior, in a retail environment, is unsupportable. I'm not saying that it's wrong, or lazy, or evil, or selfish. I'm just saying that if you do something (events, etc) on the assumption that they will lead to needed revenue, and they don't, you'll stop doing them. I work for a (basically the only) bookstore chain in America. We used to have a lot of extra seating to encourage people to come in, browse, and spend time. This was done on the assumption that this would lead to more sales. People would buy the books they were looking at, they would buy coffee and stuff from the cafe. For a LONG time, that worked. Now, not so much. Whether it is due to the financial downturn, or people not caring about the social compact, or whatever, we now get a lot of people coming into the store and reading all day (seriously, one guy was there today from 10am, when I got there, to 630 pm, when I left). We get people who don't buy ANYTHING, but come in every day until they finish the book they were reading. We get people who hold interviews and meetings at the store, and don't buy anything. We get people who don't buy anything and BRING food in with them. So, a lot of our stores are eliminating those chairs and tables. They are banning sitting on the floors entirely.

Social expectations change. If a company used to see a sales bump when they offered a free benefit, and doesn't see it any more, they might either eliminate the benefit, or eliminate the 'free'. $8 for 13 weeks seems pretty reasonable.

I'm sort of for it... support the playspace and all that.

But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox. Haha talk about your purchases to play. I'd totally play in it but I already have most codeci and I don't think I can rationalize right now more models that I won't paint.

djphranq wrote:But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox.

I'm honestly surprised that they can get this to work. Battle boxes typically 'suck' with weird and whacky model combinations that people don't typically want/need in their collections. Then there's the whole pre-tournament coordination issue of getting people to buy the box, assemble, and show up.

High entry cost requiring relatively long lead time and redundant purchases (for all but the newest hobby entrants) would make this pretty much DOA in my area.

It should be common knowledge that you suppor the place you game at. If your friends want to game at their place for free, then they should take the initiative and set it up.


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sourclams wrote:

djphranq wrote:But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox.

I'm honestly surprised that they can get this to work. Battle boxes typically 'suck' with weird and whacky model combinations that people don't typically want/need in their collections. Then there's the whole pre-tournament coordination issue of getting people to buy the box, assemble, and show up.

High entry cost requiring relatively long lead time and redundant purchases (for all but the newest hobby entrants) would make this pretty much DOA in my area.

We are having something like that at the end of the month - its a Warmachine Battle Box Tournament. The winner gets one of the new Warmachine or if their faction's hasn't been created, then they get an $85 gift card.

Run the right way...

You'll be happy to buy a unit a week, and thank me for the chance to play.

Run wrong...

You'll never come to the shop again.

Your store is being short sighted, and you can tell them that they are !@#$ing stupid and wasting an opportunity to become legendary.

The right way would be to have customers buy into an epic game of whatever your playing. Entery fee would be to buy a unit and paint, put it together and play some skermish level stuff. then every week or so, your store would have ready made encounters for each of the armies, up iin and until the armies in question "Recruited" more units, either by "Making money" in the form of building up units, or playing more andmore games, to the point where your armies are adding in a unit or two a week to the point where your buying, painting and playing, along with the store cultivating the player base with things like "SPECIAL ENCOUNTERS, Skermish nights, dungeon crawls for stuff, fight for the tower, or any number of things that your forces cando to fight for the world your fighting in.

It would be akin to playing a D and D game in miniatures, but escalating it to the point where your building up armies and playing for your added units.

Of course theres the little thing like diplomacy trials, building your little diplomats, and having them do things like buy off mercs, heavy weapons units, monsters, or other armies who are being run by other players, but then again, it is entirly up to the player base to the extent that the store could run these sorts of events.

I played in one such store oh so very long ago...

It was a couple of one off's, but my goblin band was really messing with player parties to the point where I needed to buy in a couple of wolf rider squads, just to start expanding my little guy's reign of terror.

Each table was almost it's own GM's palet, to do what they wanted to, and people could play monsters, or Player Characters, and it turned into a great free for all.

Sometimes, its fun to be an antagonistic GM with an agenda

Our local store has instituted a policy requiring a ten dollar deposit to sign up for a tournament. If you actually show up on the day, you get your ten bucks back. If you don't, then you get ten dollars in store credit. (Which is, I think, a perfect system.)

I don't think it is unreasonable to make freeloaders cough up some dough to play the game. For the OP: I think something like a 'Pay X amount of money to reserve your spot for next week, show up and you get it back. Flake out and we keep your skrillas' policy would be a little better, but still 8 bucks for several weeks is clown shoes. Tell the married couple to grow up.

Grot 6 wrote:Run the right way...

You'll be happy to buy a unit a week, and thank me for the chance to play.

Run wrong...

You'll never come to the shop again.

Your store is being short sighted, and you can tell them that they are !@#$ing stupid and wasting an opportunity to become legendary.

You can run your gaming store however you want...

At some point, stores do get stuck with 'locals' and if your locals are terrible people, no amount of being a great store will change their behaviors. Bad people are simply bad people. When they say "if the store catered to me more, I would shop locally" they are liars and no amount of effort by the store owner will get them to buy things in the store.

$8 is NOT that much. IF someone were to require you to have, say, a legendary unit for apocalypse, I could understand people making a big deal about it. It sounds to me lik they're being cheap.

Especially considering that the cards can be quite useful in the games they play in. They probabaly snack down on 20 bucks of junkfood a night, but that 62 cents is a killer to have to pay out for an evenings entertainment.