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2D Printing didn't kill TCGs. Magic: the Gathering has flourished in recent years in spite of it.

My eventual hope is for a (popular) wiki-based ruleset with a download archive of free 3D models and game rules, with users able to debate on forums and edit the rules (Admins/Mods only for editing ). It'd basically be an open-source game system. Only issue there is whether a balanced system could actually be developed with this method, and if printing your own models would be feasible. It's an idea in the early stages still though, and 3D printing would really help

For those who are interested to see how the other threads on this topic ended:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292035.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237434.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/299702.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/341269.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333038.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/226906.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271687.page

I'm sure there are more out there (such as beyond the first page of dakka search results)

enjoy!

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Just watched a mind-boggling technology show about these new printers that are coming out, which have the ability to print out stuff in 3D! Some printers were filled with sugar and printed out 3D sweets, others were filled with titanium dust and produced brand new hip replacements! Holy cow! Your computer scans something, feeds the info into a printer, you provide the materials, and hey presto what we have is something that will revolutionise manufacturing by giving people the ability to make anything from curtain rings to keys, model parts, to space marines made out of sugar...

Now here's the crux of the discussion. Sooner or later market forces will drive down the prices of these printers so that everyone can have one. Now, as sure as I have a hole in my rear, it won't be long before someone says to themselves -hmmm why don't I make my own versions of goblins/skeletons/orcs after all, how expensive is plastic?

Is this the death knell, not just for GW, but for other companies out there?

Keeping my eye on the technology. What I'm seeing and guessing will happen is that you will start seeing them reduce pricing when the fatcats of the industry get paid to improve it by leaps and bounds. HP of course will monopolize it and everyone else will be left with table scraps. Of course Joe Average will be able to get the home made model on the cheap, and home made for a couple of grand pretty soonish- 3-5 years tops.


GW will adapt and more then likely send everyone making 3D printers a C and D letter claiming that the tech is thiers by conquest, and that Miniature Wargaming was thier idea, and they invented "The Hobby".


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Oh, and ... Video Killed the Radio Star.

agnosto wrote:Not awesome but...

http://www.shapeways.com/model/148756/28mm_terran_powered_infantry_squad.html?gid=mg

Wow, I actually really like those. Very Terran Marine like design. They also have a look that would allow them to pass off as robots as well as humanoids in armor.


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darkPrince010 wrote:@Agnosto: And at GW prices too!

Well, sort of. If you look at the product page they are 4.0 cm tall, that makes the slightly taller than SM Terminators and much larger than PA. So $30 for a squad of 5 is a good bit better than GWs $50 for 5 Terminators. Only thing is they dont have the options the GW mins have.

I still think Im gonna pick some up, ive been looking for some alternate heavy power armored scifi dudes.

Also of note...go to their shop...the space ship minis available are epic...great for Full Thrust players.


Also worth noting...the prices shown on the site include UPS shipping.

I'm wondering why people think "affordable" is only in the far future? What are we defining as "future" here? I remember when only the posh families had a DVD player. For that matter, I remember when a VCR was pretty exclusive. I also (just) remember when the Home PC became a viable prospect. I don't think Blu-Ray or HD were even IN the "expensive and exclusive" stage for very long. Giant flatscreens, smart-phones (or even just mobile phones) or even the car...all of them were hugely expensive exclusive items, and they all became accessible relatively fast. After all, if "3D Printers Inc" decides it can make more money selling these things to garden-shed enterprises than it does selling one a year to Exclusive University, then I suspect the price will drop substantially. If Mega-Big Corp decides it can corner the market by selling them at a loss (like the Blu-ray), then there will be one in every home before the end of the decade.


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Or if the porn industry thinks of a use for it....

Every company is trying to make as much money as they can, so making a 3D printer that is cheap enough for the masses can't be that far off. Even if it's not dirt cheap it could easily get into the reach of a group of gamers or club. Once the quality and price are sorted, it could explode big time. Another thing is that most gamers probably won't need to go above 52mm in size, with 28mm being the average. So this means the unit doesn't have to be that big, again cutting down on cost.

It would be interesting to see if this would mean an explosion in games as people could come up with systems and get them up and running.

Or if the porn industry thinks of a use for it....

That would be real hit with the ladies, lol...if there isn't already a company doing that, anyway.

Sidstyler wrote:

Or if the porn industry thinks of a use for it....

That would be real hit with the ladies, lol...if there isn't already a company doing that, anyway.

Hahahahahaha, I agree.

Remember the speed of which technology progresses has increased exponentially since the industrial age. I doubt it will be 10 years till 3d printing becomes affordable for the masses. 3d printers first showed up in the 80's and the rate of advance has been much faster in the last 10 years than in the first 10 especially since the industry demand for 3d printers has gotten very high and will continue to rise.

darkPrince010 wrote:My eventual hope is for a (popular) wiki-based ruleset with a download archive of free 3D models and game rules, with users able to debate on forums and edit the rules (Admins/Mods only for editing ). It'd basically be an open-source game system. Only issue there is whether a balanced system could actually be developed with this method, and if printing your own models would be feasible. It's an idea in the early stages still though, and 3D printing would really help

Design by committee doesn't work, just saying. Otherwise its a cool idea.

keisukekun wrote:Remember the speed of which technology progresses has increased exponentially since the industrial age. I doubt it will be 10 years till 3d printing becomes affordable for the masses. 3d printers first showed up in the 80's and the rate of advance has been much faster in the last 10 years than in the first 10 especially since the industry demand for 3d printers has gotten very high and will continue to rise.

Not really. Things haven't changed much for the technology in the last 5-10 years. Price has been fairly constant (it came down a good bit about 8 years ago, but has since kinda plateaued) , and the accuracy has only increased slightly. Again, with the current market, price is unlikely to change. The manufacturers are selling more printers than they can make.

chaos0xomega wrote:Design by committee doesn't work, just saying. Otherwise its a cool idea.

I know... This is my wish, but not something that would ever be a reality. A database of free 3D models and free downloadable rulesets, on the other hand, could be something to think about. Imagine being able to download the ruleset (or variations therof) of Not-Mordheim or similar skirmish sized games, and then peruse a selection of warbands to print and use (Or design and contribute your own!)

I also think that 3D printers are nothing but a gimic just like 3D tvs honestly, they aren't worth the money or in this case wont be worth the money and people won't think to do it when they get one.

3D printers are a way of the future; but it will be far from putting model companies out of business.

Look at basic 2D printing costs these days; people dumping more money into replacement ink cartridges than if they were to just buy a NEW printer in many cases.

Then you get up to some the more detailed printing or into plotting say, and costs can get staggering; mind you its ALWAYS perspective. If you're doing a lot of work with this stuff its always better to own your own then have a shop print it off.


3D printing will be the future wave of model master building/design however. I would not be shocked if in the near(ish) future you start seeing 3D printers employed at larger companies like AMT, Tamiya, even GW start using the printers to build the initial master from which models are then build. And even then now many of the larger injection model models have heavy C&C work done to them with many of the finer details still worked out by hand. It's only progress.


Even if one day these things still get down to being even $1000 for something you could build 28mm models from; you'll still have people that wadger in that for $1000 they build the models they want with out having to clear up a corner in their house for the damn printer to fit. Again always perspective. 3D printers a thing of the future; of course, will they kill the model industry? No, maybe a small bite.

Sidstyler wrote:

Or if the porn industry thinks of a use for it....

That would be real hit with the ladies, lol...if there isn't already a company doing that, anyway.

There are but I don't think I can link to those sorts of websites. Lets say that 3D printing is done by some companies to make their products.

I don't think 3D printing will come ahead in the leaps and bounds that other technology has. The reason being, there is no mass-market appeal for a 3D printer. Honestly, beyond your wargaming hobbies, what would you use a 3D printer for? The tech at the moment is good enough to appeal to its target audience - companies willing to pay for rapid prototyping - so there is no huge driving force to push it towards home consumers.

Trasvi wrote:I don't think 3D printing will come ahead in the leaps and bounds that other technology has. The reason being, there is no mass-market appeal for a 3D printer. Honestly, beyond your wargaming hobbies, what would you use a 3D printer for? The tech at the moment is good enough to appeal to its target audience - companies willing to pay for rapid prototyping - so there is no huge driving force to push it towards home consumers.

One of the proposed target markets is for replacement parts; where parts that are no longer manufactured could be replaced with a 3D scanned and duplicated.

I presume that some of you here are familiar with the widely popular MMO called EVE Online.

A while back EVE online started selling 3D models of their in-game space ships, and a few weeks ago i saw one at a friend's place.

The model is a 3D print, done from polyurethane, and it was printed in full color. Detail on the model is amazingly sharp, and the color print looks better than any paint job i could reproduce with a brush/airbrush or whatever.

The punchline #1 is that the models sell at around $80, and i'm pretty sure that CCP (company behind Eve online) still make a killing on these models.

The punchline #2 is that today you can create 3D models in SketchUp (free software from google) and have them printed at your local 3D printing business for a very small fee. I used a local service myself to produce a few bits for a certain miniature game, and they came out with same detail like the originals (if not better)

The punchline #3 is that with little hacking-savvy and two kinect sensors ($200 or less?) you can create an almost perfect 3D scanner that can create objects for SketchUp that you can touch up and take to your local 3D printing business for printouts.

Will it be the death of GW and similar companies: only time will tell, but honestly, nobody can predict it (especially not a bunch of fanboyz like ourselves here on dakka)

A 3d printer can often be rigged as a 3d scanner. Fit a camera in place of a plastic extruder, and there you go.

There are various versions of DIY 3d printers at reprap.org, and their forums have mentions of alternative uses, like scanning.

For someone happy to try their own, and has around £400 to drop on the project, pop along and see what they say their current versions can manage.

Trasvi wrote:I don't think 3D printing will come ahead in the leaps and bounds that other technology has. The reason being, there is no mass-market appeal for a 3D printer. Honestly, beyond your wargaming hobbies, what would you use a 3D printer for? The tech at the moment is good enough to appeal to its target audience - companies willing to pay for rapid prototyping - so there is no huge driving force to push it towards home consumers.

The reason the 3d printer tech has such HUGE market potential is that it can be used to make almost anything. People have even made food printers that use different proteins and can print out a variety of foods with a range of flavors. Another use is in making replica's. For instance if a museum wants a jet engine to display they have to have a replica made which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Larg scale 3d printers can and have been used to make large replicas of complex objects like an aircraft engine for a fraction of the cost. All this has huge market potential both for the commercial industrial market and for home market. Our modelling is just a tiny fraction of what these devices are capable of.

Basically 3d printers are a step towards the famed Star trek replicators

biccat wrote:The risk of 3d printers to miniatures is about the same as the risk of printers to books, or VCRs to the movie industry.

It might cause some pirating, but in the long run it will be a lot cheaper and easier to just buy the products from the store.

keisukekun wrote:I would totally print a titanium Necron Lord and play it with no paint on it.

I saw a guy who had Warmachine stuff (Khador warjacks) copper plated, then brushed to create different textures and colors. It looked freaking fantastic.

We have a guy at our shop who is a jeweler by trade. For his warmachine casters, he uses the same material they coat white gold with to do his swords and other 'glistening' metals. We joked and asked him if he would do necrons and he laughed and said that he would be broke before he could do that army justice.

3D printers are permanently part of the manufacturing process now so they'll be around for a long long time (until something better replaces them).

Here's a 3D printer that can print in 14 materials from a single job. (Watch the video to see it in action...I drooled on my keyboard)
http://www.objet.com/3D-Printer/Objet_Connex_Family/

Here's some case studies from companies most of you have heard of:
BMW
Logitech

Now that businesses are seeing benefits like that there will be more than enough money to drive development and see rapid improvements to the technology. Within 10 years these will be capable of mind blowing feats! I mean they can already print moving parts and working hinges! The "layering" effect is already being measured in microns so forget about "low resolution" being an issue. I've seen printers in the $250K price range that can produce details better than a GW miniature has, can print the model already painted, and can even print multiple materials to make a polished sword noticeably different in texture and finish to a leather belt pouch. Within a few decades I'd wager we're printing replacement organs for people on these things!

All that being said, I don't think GW has anything to worry about for now, but 10 years down the road counterfeiting on 3D printers might actually be a genuine concern. The main factor will be can it be profitable? Currently the cost of the printer pretty much means no. You can make far more money using the printer for legitimate business purposes (for example - running jobs for other businesses) than you can selling counterfeit minis. In 10 years when the quality is even better and the cost potentially much lower, well we'll have to wait and see but I suspect there will always be a more profitable use of the machine's time... (then again, with the rate GW increases their prices it just might be a very profitable by then!)

Death of GW - Check.
GW killing itself - Check.
GW pricing - Check.

Yup. It's that thread again.

Nice post! In my opinion if this 3d technology really makes an impact then I could say GW would use it as llew suggests as a customization service, but I think we should see a phasing out of some model lines to encourage its use. Thanks for sharing.

the tech is pretty good right now but it is expensive for the most people. you can cheaply build your own effective printer btu again that involves skillls most people simply do not posess. however a techy who is good with crafting and using tech could feasibly make a 3d printer and there's enough open soace software to make it work for a few grand of less if you're more creative. that said i'd like to see gw sell licenses to their models or buy a template that prints a spru using your own equipment but than again people would just pirate the templates.

it'll be imo be around 5-10 years before it becomes realistic for techies to build thier own for the price it'd need to cost... and it'll be another decade or two before it reaches consumer lvl

I dont thinks so because if this tech makes it... yeah there will be a new industry of miniature models. BUT every true believer in gw and warhammer 40k and what not will say,"Yeah this stuff is new and cool, but It's not the warhammer I used to know and love" with that i think GW will be around for years to come. Who know maybe Gw will even use this technology to make a new generation of all it's model franchises?

"The death of GW?"

Sure, why not? Because all those people who can't find time to paint their minis will certainly find time to learn how to research, "sculpt", scan and operate the machinery to produce an entire army.

And it's not like it takes skill to sculpt either. Just hook it up to your brain and it'll print out your fantasies. Wait, can it produce a to-scale model of pre-adoption kaiser Angelina Jolie? Hmmm... I see potential...


It'll certainly give people more options, but I wouldn't discount the skill of the designers who produce new models. Even "scanning" models and correcting the flaws requires some skill. In the end, I suspect enough people just want to buy a well-designed model, rather than just the cheapest knock-off regardless of quality, that GW will stay afloat.

mal wrote:For those who are interested to see how the other threads on this topic ended:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292035.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237434.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/299702.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/341269.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333038.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/226906.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271687.page

I'm sure there are more out there (such as beyond the first page of dakka search results)

enjoy!

Oh was that the only ones out there? So few /sarcasm