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Deadly Hitman51 wrote:Thats a ton of BS I've never heard of a GW store not permitting such a thing. if the model is 75% GW then it should be fine.

Guess it really boils down to the individual managers and the regional managers. Like I said before, the store in my town has a manager who is a total slave to GW and the regional manager. But the manager in the next town over doesn't care that my Macharius is actually a King Tiger with two battecannons glued onto it. That being said he did come into confrontation with the Regional Manager once... the Regional Manager no longer works for GW.

tell your man well done.GW is a free zone.or should be anyway

Deadly Hitman51 wrote:Thats a ton of BS I've never heard of a GW store not permitting such a thing. if the model is 75% GW then it should be fine.

Care to tell us how said percentage is calculated perchance? Is is the mass of the model? Is it number of parts used? There is no formal system. Using the latter I can claim my TWC are 75% GW as the rider has more components than the Wolf, in spite of the fact the Wolf is much bigger.

Since this is a rule at Games Workshop stores, is it a Games Workshop rule? Or is it some kind of house rule? Funny, no matter how often I read the boards, I never see a single Games Workshop employee posting to clear up any of these confusing issues.

well it has never been a problem in my store.im in NI so maybe thats why.also,they were blue shirts

Classic case of being petty for the sake of being petty. Funny thing about rules such as this is that it is better to let small cases such as this slide as enforcing policies such as this usually does more harm than good. It would be a different case altogether if someone rocked up to a GW with 2000pt IG army made entirely out of 100% non GW parts.

candy.man wrote:Classic case of being petty for the sake of being petty. Funny thing about rules such as this is that it is better to let small cases such as this slide as enforcing policies such as this usually does more harm than good. It would be a different case altogether if someone rocked up to a GW with 2000pt IG army made entirely out of 100% non GW parts.

Yeah, it really has nothing to do with "being petty for the sake of being petty".

In many of these cases, it regards the tournaments or league games which GW runs on their premises and routinely have staff photograph to use as promo material. They don't want things that look terrible or promote other companies in their promo material.

Look at that "dinosaur" that was used. Can you tell what the actual model used was? No? It was an old Hasbro Dewback for a 12 inch Sandtrooper figure done for their Star Wars line.

You can't immediately spot that, however, because a ton of work has been done to change it. That is something that GW has no issue with.

If someone, however, had plopped down a cheap dollar store Diplodocus with some skinks hastily glued on--it would have been an entirely different story, especially on a promotional day.

It is a case of being petty Kan. I am well aware of the promo material excuse and I was afraid that this would be mentioned.

The promo material excuse doesn’t hold a candle in my book considering GW has bucket loads of promo material, photo graphs etc. The odd customer or two isn’t going to change anything. Like I said, it would be a different story if someone rocked up with a 2000 pt IG army made out of 100% non GW parts. Exiling a customer for a small amount of non GW models is bad business (the customers in OP will probably never return to the store again). As I’ve said, enforcing rules such as this creates more trouble than it’s worth. GW have also demonstrated in the past about being overly political with their decisions.

It’s also very obvious that the dinosaur is a non GW model. There’s only been a small handful of GW dinosaurs that large (the Olliphant and Squigoth I think). I would suspect that they let it slide considering how well the conversion has been implemented.

It's bigger than the Oliphant and Squiggoth.

They "let it slide" because, like I said, "a ton of work has been done to change it".

They don't want things to be immediately recognizable. They want you to put work into it, use your imagination to make it fit in.

And I should add that very rarely do they "exile a customer for a small amount of non-GW models". It's usually a case of "Customer gets told they cannot use X in a tournament because it's essentially a dollar shop toy with bits hastily glued on and no work done to represent X that actually has a model kit--customer gets upset and then declares jihad against GW afterwards".

Just to clarify the rules for conversions etc.:

A converted model must start out as a Citadel model. It must have a majority ( no specific percentage) of Citadel parts.

You cannot use an item that is part of another company's IP. So if I buy M-16's for my guard from MaxMini, that is a no no.

If I sculpt and cast up a bunch of M-16's for my Guard, that is ok.

It is not ok to cast GW parts, or conversion parts for sale.

It's all on the website, down below, under Legal...the link is in small grey print.

lindsay40k wrote:

insaniak wrote:

CadianCommander wrote:The point here I think OP is trying to make isn't the reasonable request/demand not to use inappropriate figures in the store made by another/rival wargame manufacturer, but banning a kid for doing a conversion that uses parts from a toy that isn't made by a wargaming rival, in the light of GW showcasing non-GW products being used.

And this supposed banning actually happened when?

OP here! I've already said I was purposefully exaggerating.

And therein lies a large part of the problem with this thread. It's based around a premise that is completely made up.


For the record, GW stores will sometimes refuse to allow you to use models that are or that use parts made by other manufacturers. That's entirely within their rights... As I said earlier, they're not being 'petty' by asking you to not show off stuff that you can't actually buy in their own store... the one that you're currently trying to play in.

You won't get 'banned' for it, though. Or if you are, it would be a one in a million situation due to a particularly over-zealous staff member, and either there would be a little more to the story leading up to that 'ban' or it would be easily over-turned by just speaking to the manager.

So let's not blow this all out of proportion, hmm?

Kanluwen wrote:And I should add that very rarely do they "exile a customer for a small amount of non-GW models". It's usually a case of "Customer gets told they cannot use X in a tournament because it's essentially a dollar shop toy with bits hastily glued on and no work done to represent X that actually has a model kit--customer gets upset and then declares jihad against GW afterwards".

I agree with this example as well. Someone bringing an unconverted dollar shop toy to a tournament should be kicked out. My opinion only focuses on the case of someone bringing a small amount of well converted non GW models.

candy.man wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And I should add that very rarely do they "exile a customer for a small amount of non-GW models". It's usually a case of "Customer gets told they cannot use X in a tournament because it's essentially a dollar shop toy with bits hastily glued on and no work done to represent X that actually has a model kit--customer gets upset and then declares jihad against GW afterwards".

I agree with this example as well. Someone bringing an unconverted dollar shop toy to a tournament should be kicked out. My opinion only focuses on the case of someone bringing a small amount of well converted non GW models.

But in that case they're usually not looked down upon, unless they do something to annoy the staff.

insaniak wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

insaniak wrote:

CadianCommander wrote:The point here I think OP is trying to make isn't the reasonable request/demand not to use inappropriate figures in the store made by another/rival wargame manufacturer, but banning a kid for doing a conversion that uses parts from a toy that isn't made by a wargaming rival, in the light of GW showcasing non-GW products being used.

And this supposed banning actually happened when?

OP here! I've already said I was purposefully exaggerating.

And therein lies a large part of the problem with this thread. It's based around a premise that is completely made up.


For the record, GW stores will sometimes refuse to allow you to use models that are or that use parts made by other manufacturers. That's entirely within their rights... As I said earlier, they're not being 'petty' by asking you to not show off stuff that you can't actually buy in their own store... the one that you're currently trying to play in.

You won't get 'banned' for it, though. Or if you are, it would be a one in a million situation due to a particularly over-zealous staff member, and either there would be a little more to the story leading up to that 'ban' or it would be easily over-turned by just speaking to the manager.

So let's not blow this all out of proportion, hmm?

Emphasis mine.

So, back to the question I keep asking. What are the specifics? When is it okay and when is it not? If it is a Games Workshop rule for legal play within their stores, surely it must be definitively stated somewhere? I haven't blown anything out of proportion yet, I just want to know what the actual rule is. The restriction as stated above is vague and a very slippery slope, which could conceivably mean ''no conversions using anything GW didn't sell you, including plasticard, generic green stuff, or any supply you didn't get here.''

I realize that probably isn't the case, but it is the furthest extreme of the restriction as you state it, Insaniak. So, if such a rule even exists, what is it? What are the specifics?

Isn't that a Star Wars action figure? I forget the name but the re release of where the Stormtroopers ride them in Star Wars: A new Hope on Tattoonie?

I can see why you can't play with Non GW stuff in a store. It's the store owner who makes the rules not coperate GW. Why would a store owner let people play in his store for free if they are using non GW stuff? People will see this and then not buy stuff from his store. (are there female owners?)

So it's perfectly understandable why some stores would not let you use non GW stuff. There is a great potential risk of some people not spending money at his store now.

hsojvvad wrote:Isn't that a Star Wars action figure? I forget the name but the re release of where the Stormtroopers ride them in Star Wars: A new Hope on Tatooine?

It's called a 'Dewback', and it's been in since the original theatrical release back in 1977 where it just kind of stood in the background because the animatronics inside overheated thanks to Tunisia's climate.

I can see why you can't play with non-GW stuff in a store. It's the store owner who makes the rules not corporate GW.

Yeah...the "rules" being referred to are rules that are in GW Hobby Centers...who do have rules made by corporate GW.

Why would a store owner let people play in his store for free if they are using non GW stuff? People will see this and then not buy stuff from his store. (are there female owners?)
So it's perfectly understandable why some stores would not let you use non GW stuff. There is a great potential risk of some people not spending money at his store now.

The rest of your statement is kind of illogical and has nothing to do with the question posed overall.

Many independent shops and/or playgroups have no issues with people utilizing non-GW stuff--provided you're not just slapping down dollar store army men and claiming they're Terminators.
There's a limit to what people will accept as "counts-as" or "proxy". It usually will be when you're clearly just trying to play the flavor of the month army and refusing to buy models to accompany your hop from book to book to book.

Jimsolo wrote:So, back to the question I keep asking. What are the specifics? When is it okay and when is it not? If it is a Games Workshop rule for legal play within their stores, surely it must be definitively stated somewhere?

Something doesn't have to be written down to be a rule.

From what I've seen and heard over the years, the enforcement of it varies a little from store to store, but usually it just comes down to people being asked not to use certain models. I don't recall anyone ever actually being kicked out of a store for it, outside of third-hand anecdotes.

The restriction as stated above is vague and a very slippery slope, which could conceivably mean ''no conversions using anything GW didn't sell you, including plasticard, generic green stuff, or any supply you didn't get here.''

Interestingly enough, that's the exact same restriction that they inadvertently put on this years Oz Golden Demon, although they have since re-written the rules slightly to allow non-GW modelling materials again.

You would have to check with your local store to find out just what they do and don't allow. Ultimately, though, they want you to be playing with 100% GW models, because that's what they sell. So if you're using components or models from other manufacturers and intending to play in a GW store, you need to be aware that they may object to you using those models in their store. That's really all it boils down to.

Jimsolo wrote:See, Hitman, that's what I've always heard. Is this a common practice in some places but not others?

Yes real common place. 75% of th model should be GW. Its like the unwritten role. I've been to maybe 7 different shops around Cleveland and Pittsburgh and everyone had a similar rule to that.

Thank you. And yes, a rule does not have to be written down to be a rule, but it must definitely have a definition to be one.

insaniak wrote:Ultimately, though, they want you to be playing with 100% GW models, because that's what they sell.

This is the bit I have trouble with. I keep seeing how we are encouraged in various Games Workshop publications to custom convert our models from whatever is handy. I find it a little disingenuous for them to immediately turn around and ask me not to use those models in their store. The 75% seems to be the norm from everyone that I have talked to around here.

Jimsolo wrote:Thank you. And yes, a rule does not have to be written down to be a rule, but it must definitely have a definition to be one.

insaniak wrote:Ultimately, though, they want you to be playing with 100% GW models, because that's what they sell.

This is the bit I have trouble with. I keep seeing how we are encouraged in various Games Workshop publications to custom convert our models from whatever is handy. I find it a little disingenuous for them to immediately turn around and ask me not to use those models in their store. The 75% seems to be the norm from everyone that I have talked to around here.

Conversion kits aren't really "whatever is handy". Your bits box is the definition of "whatever is handy", at least in my book.

Conversion kits have to be sought out, ordered, etc. There's also the whole matter of them being "third party" kits in many cases, which opens up a whole different can of worms.

Kit, Schmit. I use whatever's in my pockets or lying on the bottom of my toolbox!

I'm worried now that I'll go to a Games Workshop and be refused entry because I used non GW superglue. Or a piece of balsa wood.

If you just superglue an unpainted, unworked on piece of balsa wood on a model--you probably would be asked to not use the model.

That rule about 'majority Games Workshop parts' seems fair. If I rocked up with an army of my Ultrasmurfs, and then went into battle against someone using the Toy Story army men as Guardsmen I'd be a little annoyed. If I put money and effort into the hobby it should be reciprocated, or at least mostly reciprocated.

KGatch113 wrote:

Just to clarify the rules for conversions etc.:

A converted model must start out as a Citadel model. It must have a majority ( no specific percentage) of Citadel parts.

You cannot use an item that is part of another company's IP. So if I buy M-16's for my guard from MaxMini, that is a no no.

If I sculpt and cast up a bunch of M-16's for my Guard, that is ok.

It is not ok to cast GW parts, or conversion parts for sale.

It's all on the website, down below, under Legal...the link is in small grey print.

Are you sure about the M16s?

If they are some proprietary gun design like Star Trek Phasers I see the issue but the M16 (and AK47 for that matter) is in the public domain since the USG does not claim trademarks or copyrights.

Well, I found it. Here, in point of fact.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4

If you want to know, fellow Dakkanauts, here's the cold truth: ANY conversion you do is considered an infringement on Games Workshop's intellectual property, and you can be held accountable as such. However, they also state that they still encourage such work so long as you don't A) mass produce your conversions, and B) you don't use another company's intellectual property or combine it with their's. So, there we go.

If its a tournament, then you should be smart enough to realize its a GW tournament, using gw figurines.

If its regular play, punch the guy in the face and tell him to sit down and shut the feth up.

I'm a little miffed that Games Workshop spent a bunch of time telling me to convert my models, that they want me to convert, selling me a book on HOW to convert, and then finding out that they reserve the right to tell me not to play at their stores with those converted models. It seems a little two faced.

As I said on Pg 1,GW makes money from selling alone,not through charge for tavble rent or lessons.So its reasonable to ask to not use competitors stuff in tourneys.Also,I'm pretty sure when they say convert,they mean put a bloodletter inside a dreadknight and count it a s soul grinder,which featured in whats new today a couple of weeks ago.

Jimsolo wrote:I'm a little miffed that Games Workshop spent a bunch of time telling me to convert my models, that they want me to convert, selling me a book on HOW to convert, and then finding out that they reserve the right to tell me not to play at their stores with those converted models. It seems a little two faced.

I'd find it twofaced if they showed you how to use 3rd party company stuff for it.

They don't, so I don't see a big deal.