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First up, all redshirts are people trying to do a job, not having a go at them here. There's plenty who make a great effort to encourage hobbycraft using unusual components and suchlike, and on the flipside it's easy for a flustered retail employee doing the job of three people cross the line from asking people not to use Warmachine figures as Obliterators to telling a youth with a brilliantly creative Transformer to Deff Dread conversion that he's banned. There is a difference that shouldn't need stating.

If one finds oneself in a situation similar to the latter, then there's a link to keep handy to bring up on the in-store computer only allowed on geedubyadotcom that illustrates that GW endorses the use of non-GW non-wargaming figures as raw materials for conversion by allowing them through to finals of their painting competitions:

I liked that model. It was really cool to see at Gamesday.

Stay clear of the neckbeards and your life will be much better. That model was amazing to see in person.

Exalted

- This is spam. Do not do this... insaniak -

lindsay40k wrote:If one finds oneself in a situation similar to the latter, then there's a link to keep handy to bring up on the in-store computer only allowed on geedubyadotcom that illustrates that GW endorses the use of non-GW non-wargaming figures as raw materials for conversion by allowing them through to finals of their painting competitions:

That shows that they allow models with non-GW components in Golden Demon. I'm a little puzzled as to just what bearing you think that has on what they allow you to bring into their stores.

Or, for that matter, what you would hope to achieve by arguing their house rules with them beyond being labelled as an obnoxious irritant and ejected from the store...

Well, to my knowledge, there are no posted rules anywhere saying you can't use non-GW stuff in store anyway, its an unwritten rule that is almost universally enforced (I say almost because I know for a fact certain stores look the other way). However, the fact that GW posted pics of that on their website and even made it clear that it was converted from another kit/toy shows that they are softening their stance on non-gw stuff for use in official functions.

On the other hand, the dino is a piece of scenery. Its not meant to be used in a game (or maybe it is, those skinks look they are modeled on it) but for the purposes of the display. GW certainly can't ban you for using non-GW scenery bits, since they do it all the time.

I feel like I had that dinosaur toy when I was young... unless I'm mistaking it for something else.

chaos0xomega wrote:Well, to my knowledge, there are no posted rules anywhere saying you can't use non-GW stuff in store anyway, its an unwritten rule that is almost universally enforced (I say almost because I know for a fact certain stores look the other way). However, the fact that GW posted pics of that on their website and even made it clear that it was converted from another kit/toy shows that they are softening their stance on non-gw stuff for use in official functions.

On the other hand, the dino is a piece of scenery. Its not meant to be used in a game (or maybe it is, those skinks look they are modeled on it) but for the purposes of the display. GW certainly can't ban you for using non-GW scenery bits, since they do it all the time.

Not only that, but it might simply have been allowed because it's not from another game system/manufacturer.

insaniak wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:If one finds oneself in a situation similar to the latter, then there's a link to keep handy to bring up on the in-store computer only allowed on geedubyadotcom that illustrates that GW endorses the use of non-GW non-wargaming figures as raw materials for conversion by allowing them through to finals of their painting competitions:

That shows that they allow models with non-GW components in Golden Demon. I'm a little puzzled as to just what bearing you think that has on what they allow you to bring into their stores.

Or, for that matter, what you would hope to achieve by arguing their house rules with them beyond being labelled as an obnoxious irritant and ejected from the store...

Perhaps her intent in making the argument was to use one example to give precedent for another. Since they allow models to have pieces not their own in one of their sanctioned events, perhaps they will allow it in another. And perhaps her point in arguing their house rules is to try and counter an unfair and unreasonable demand with logic. Heaven forbid we attempt to present a non-aggressive, logical argument against bias.

Jimsolo wrote:Perhaps her intent in making the argument was to use one example to give precedent for another. Since they allow models to have pieces not their own in one of their sanctioned events, perhaps they will allow it in another. And perhaps her point in arguing their house rules is to try and counter an unfair and unreasonable demand with logic. Heaven forbid we attempt to present a non-aggressive, logical argument against bias.

This isn't a court of law. Arguments about 'precedent' are completely irrelevant. If a store has a rule that says 'no non-GW parts' then that is the rule.

This is nothing to do with bias. GW stores are perfectly entitled to try to protect their own interests by not allowing you to show off competing products on their gaming tables. Showing a picture of a toy dinosaur used in a painting competition entry as a unit that doesn't even exist in any of their games isn't going to change that.

IMHO,its fine touse them as lond as you stae,this WW2 Spitfire is my Thunder bolt,and it has the real lascannons or whatever
OR
slaping down a stompa and pointing to an Action man LMG and saying,clearly,that this is my super gatler

If the rule is that you have to play with a slice of baked ham on your head, then that's the rule too. And both of them are ridiculous rules. The original post was about models using parts from non Games Workshop materials, not the models in whole. As long as you have pieces from their models, why should they care if you field the models you bought from them as is or if you chopped up a GI Joe in order to spruce them up a bit?

I'm normally the one defending Games Workshop, Insaniak, so I'm not used to taking the opposite position. I think at this juncture I'm supposed to spout something about price hikes, finecast, and Matt Ward, but since I'm not really familiar with those arguments I'll skip that part.

I'm curious as to what incensed you about the original post so much to make you responded with such flagrant venom.

Ward likes the number 4.just look through a MW codex and see how many tmes 4 comes up.Range characteristcs,shots,number of upgrades in one line for captain(it says,PW,PP,LC or SS)

Jimsolo wrote:I'm normally the one defending Games Workshop, Insaniak, so I'm not used to taking the opposite position. I think at this juncture I'm supposed to spout something about price hikes, finecast, and Matt Ward, but since I'm not really familiar with those arguments I'll skip that part.

Jimsolo wrote:I'm normally the one defending Games Workshop, Insaniak, so I'm not used to taking the opposite position. I think at this juncture I'm supposed to spout something about price hikes, finecast, and Matt Ward, but since I'm not really familiar with those arguments I'll skip that part.

I'm curious as to what incensed you about the original post so much to make you responded with such flagrant venom.

There was no venom. I was genuinely puzzled as to just what point he thought he was making, and whether he actually thought that arguing the point in store would achieve anything productive.

Sounded pretty venemous.

The point here I think OP is trying to make isn't the reasonable request/demand not to use inappropriate figures in the store made by another/rival wargame manufacturer, but banning a kid for doing a conversion that uses parts from a toy that isn't made by a wargaming rival, in the light of GW showcasing non-GW products being used.

OP didn't say "told not to use" didn't say "asked to leave" he said "banned". That's fairly full on.

Citing precedence (doesn't only apply to law for throne's sake) if done gently and not obnoxiously may help aforementioned frazzled redshirter calm down and see what kind of call they've made. That can prevent similar calls being made in the future.

As for house rules, few businesses have such luxury of blanket custom house rules. It's usually a country/region-wide policy they need to adhere to.

That's a pretty amazing use of a non-GW model. I am pretty surprised it made it into the competition at all.

GW does indeed try to enforce a strict GW-only product while in their house. Recently a hobby center opened up in my town(Denton, TX). There was much rejoicing because the hobby store I had to drive to was 45 minutes away from where I lived.

I was there for maybe four months before I exclusively go to my old hobby store (45 minutes away) because A) the manager was pretty much a dick to anyone who didn't spend $100 a month in the store. B) Not only did he enforce the GW-Only Rule, but he enforced a painted only policy for all but one table in the store. Which meant that there were four people in the store who could play on any table. The rest had to take turns playing on one crappy table in the back.

The store in Frisco is much better. The manager there has always been hobby first, GW sales second. He lets me use my converted Imperial Guard tanks and my Thunder Wolf Calvary that uses non-GW models. He also does not care if people's models are painted are not, unless its in a tournament. All around he is a much better hobby store manager than the new one.

Personally I would say that allowances have been made because:

a) Armies on Parade is a much less formal event than say the Golden Daemon.

b) Technically the big lizard is terrain, and GW don't really seem to give a crap about what you use for terrain.


AFAIK, the unwritten non-GW policy seems to boil down to not allowing parts from i]other miniature manufacturers[/i] (with real-life situations that I witnessed to back up)
IG army with assault rifles from MaxMini (i think) was not allowed.
Renegade IG that used a Burger King kid's meal Wild Wild West toy (with GW guns) as a stalk tank was allowed.

So I guess because the taiwanese pound-shop dinosaur toy company is exactly fighting for the same money as say MaxMini or PP then they wouldn't give a crap.


Not saying it's right, but I think that's the logic

CadianCommander wrote:OP didn't say "told not to use" didn't say "asked to leave" he said "banned". That's fairly full on.

Just unlurking for a second to say I was using colourful language to cover the whole gamut of jobsworth behaviour that puts GW conformity ahead of encouraging hobbycraft

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:I'm normally the one defending Games Workshop, Insaniak, so I'm not used to taking the opposite position. I think at this juncture I'm supposed to spout something about price hikes, finecast, and Matt Ward, but since I'm not really familiar with those arguments I'll skip that part.

I'm curious as to what incensed you about the original post so much to make you responded with such flagrant venom.

There was no venom. I was genuinely puzzled as to just what point he thought he was making, and whether he actually thought that arguing the point in store would achieve anything productive.

Well then my apologies.

Leigen_Zero wrote:AFAIK, the unwritten non-GW policy seems to boil down to not allowing parts from i]other miniature manufacturers[/i] (with real-life situations that I witnessed to back up)
IG army with assault rifles from MaxMini (i think) was not allowed.
Renegade IG that used a Burger King kid's meal Wild Wild West toy (with GW guns) as a stalk tank was allowed.

So I guess because the taiwanese pound-shop dinosaur toy company is exactly fighting for the same money as say MaxMini or PP then they wouldn't give a crap

So where's the line drawn? Obviously, in conversions I can use non-GW parts that aren't toys, like plasticard or cardstock or balsa wood or what have you. What companies do they think is a 'toy manufacturer'? Is it just toys from said toy manufacturers? Can I use bits of plastic I cut from the case my GI Joe came in, or is that out because I paid another toy manufacturer for that? Is it only other wargame companies, or any toy company? Is anything included in that franchise out? Can I cut down a DvD of the GI Joe movie and use it as a sawblade for a Deff Dread, or is that out because a few cents trickled back to someone who is ostensibly 'competition'?

I'm not trying to be a doucher, but this is the very first I have ever heard of Games Workshop not allowing any pieces of non-GW minis in their stores. I was always to understand there was a rule of some kind of percentage. If, as Insaniak says, this is the rule, then maybe this rule should have some definition.

From the description it looks like the guy showed up with his army on Gamesday to register?

If that's the case I can see how they would let him get in instead of turning him away on the con grounds. Might make them look bad. Plus the public voted him into the finals.

GW are within their rights to act under their own discretion regarding what people bring into their stores. If somebody turned up with a unit of guardmen using Pig Iron Productions heads, they'd get attention. Why would they not bother to control this?

I'd consider it unprofessional if they were mocking either the producer or the hobbyist, but otherwise I see no harm in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In terms of the Golden Daemon, they can refuse entries based on the entry guidelines but can probably allow almost anything. This is a toy dinosaur, not a third-party 'bit' sold as an add-on to GW's range or a Voltron with a shoddy paintjob and an assault cannon.

Speaking to staffers, they were all surprised that it was allowed entry.

The rules they received were pretty hard lined. "No models from other companies." . I do think the spirit was "No models from other competing companies.". But I definitely don't think that is what was communicated to store staff.

Thats a ton of BS I've never heard of a GW store not permitting such a thing. if the model is 75% GW then it should be fine.

See, Hitman, that's what I've always heard. Is this a common practice in some places but not others?

Jimsolo wrote:See, Hitman, that's what I've always heard. Is this a common practice in some places but not others?

Ya me and Hitman go to the same shop. This is common practice. Our shop is one of the better ones out there with rules representation and such. Thats how its supposed to be. 75% of the model should be GW. That is the standard.

CadianCommander wrote:The point here I think OP is trying to make isn't the reasonable request/demand not to use inappropriate figures in the store made by another/rival wargame manufacturer, but banning a kid for doing a conversion that uses parts from a toy that isn't made by a wargaming rival, in the light of GW showcasing non-GW products being used.

And this supposed banning actually happened when?

insaniak wrote:

CadianCommander wrote:The point here I think OP is trying to make isn't the reasonable request/demand not to use inappropriate figures in the store made by another/rival wargame manufacturer, but banning a kid for doing a conversion that uses parts from a toy that isn't made by a wargaming rival, in the light of GW showcasing non-GW products being used.

And this supposed banning actually happened when?

OP here! I've already said I was purposefully exaggerating.

theres a blanket rule and some shops enforce it more than others, for instance my not very FLGS not allowing me entry to a tournement because my models were so grey they still looked plastic, but any way, i think that for a painting/modelling competion you should be able to use what ever you want to get the desired effect, so long as you can look at each model and know what faction the model represents, if not what the actual model its self being represented, if a company is getting bitchy for using a giant dinosaur then maybe theres a hole in their sales that they can fill
presenting the forge world giant dinosaur only £15000

i think the rule is enfored
a-to stop people slapping down a toy Trex ad declaring that is a carnosaur(WHFB for those who don't play it)
b-GW makesd all its money through sales.they don't charge for tables or painting areas being used.they give out free lessons,they give free delivery on most things.they make money from selling the goods and thats all.if peopkle srtartusing spitfires as thunderbolts then they lose sales.