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Melissia wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:The Sisters of Battle are simply self-righteous delusionists given to slaughtering populations of innocent people due to paranoia of heresy or disobedience.

So basically you're arguing they're like the Night Lords but with better press?

Sisters might slaughter populations, but only if it's absolutely necessary. Most of what sisters do is actually protecting the populace. In the Tyrannic wars (the various Tyranid invasions) for example, they would lay their lives down to protect civilians as they evacuated planets, where the Night Lords would have simply left them to their fate. Indeed, Saint Praxedes is renowned for exactly that.

Night Lords just slaughter because they're sick bastards who want to cause fear for fear's sake.

I'm not arguing that at all; I didn't even refer to the Night Lords.

The Sisters of Battle are, almost irrefutably, 'less evil' than the Night Lords, or at least what the Night Lords have become. However, they still aren't heroes - they're simply a lesser evil. The true 'heroes' of the 40K universe are the Imperial Guard - many of which fight with no more than basic weapons against the incomprehensible horrors of the universe. It's easy to stand defiant against a 7 foot tall Chaos Space Marine when you yourself are clad in something akin to tank armour and armed with a weapon with recoil capable of removing most peoples arms, not so much when your equipment consists of a lasgun, a flak jacket and a bayonet. Not to mention the fact that they are entirely unsung, with hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen dying every day, destined to be remembered as nothing more than cannon fodder.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:The Sisters of Battle are, almost irrefutably, 'less evil' than the Night Lords, or at least what the Night Lords have become. However, they still aren't heroes

Oh, so a common human sacrificing themselves to save civilians is only noble and heroic if they do it with puny weapons?

Sisters must still overcome very human fear and emotions. That they are better equipped doesn't make heir heroic sacrifices into non-heroic sacrifices. It's not like Marines, who don't feel any fear and probably aren't going to die anyway-- Sisters dying in droves to protect something in the fluff is about as common as Sisters appearing in the fluff.

Sisters are, indeed, heroes of the Imperium. Shining examples of all that is good about humanity, to directly quote GW.

Sisters are so indoctrinated that they really can hardly even be considered a military force. They have little concept of strategy beyond "Hey those are bad guys, the Emperor thinks I should die killing them" and don't mesh well with other forces of the Imperium. See the Ciaphas Cain novel (forget the title) when they were on the plateau planet with the 'stealer cult. The Sisters' refusal to look at the bigger picture because it interfered with their martyrdom nearly got everyone killed.

So good or bad, I don't think is the question. I'd just say they're incompetant.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Sisters are so indoctrinated that they really can hardly even be considered a military force. They have little concept of strategy beyond "Hey those are bad guys, the Emperor thinks I should die killing them" and don't mesh well with other forces of the Imperium. See the Ciaphas Cain novel (forget the title) when they were on the plateau planet with the 'stealer cult. The Sisters' refusal to look at the bigger picture because it interfered with their martyrdom nearly got everyone killed.

So good or bad, I don't think is the question. I'd just say they're incompetant.

Just like the Black templars, Spesswolves, Blood Angels when they have a bad day, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists when they feel particularly stuborn...

KingDeath wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Sisters are so indoctrinated that they really can hardly even be considered a military force. They have little concept of strategy beyond "Hey those are bad guys, the Emperor thinks I should die killing them" and don't mesh well with other forces of the Imperium. See the Ciaphas Cain novel (forget the title) when they were on the plateau planet with the 'stealer cult. The Sisters' refusal to look at the bigger picture because it interfered with their martyrdom nearly got everyone killed.

So good or bad, I don't think is the question. I'd just say they're incompetant.

Just like the Black templars, Spesswolves, Blood Angels when they have a bad day, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists when they feel particularly stuborn...

I'd agree, except that all of them usually manage to accomplish their goals without all dying. That's at least a step up

Ugh...

Regarding the Sisters Militant:

What's true is that they are extremely focused on a "black vs white" way of thinking. In their eyes, there is only good or evil, and whereas they will show great acts of compassion for those they deem worthy of being saved in the name of good, they will be just as cruel and unforgiving to those who they regard as having sided with evil. And Imperial civilians, including women and children, can stand on both sides of the line thus drawn, depending solely on the circumstances and whatever the Ecclesiarchy has decreed. The Sisters can be seen as heroines or monsters; they switch from one role into the other with frightening ease thanks to their zeal and indoctrination. This is what makes them so grimdark that they fit perfectly with the rest of the setting. So please don't push them into one corner or the other when they frequently operate in both.

As for their military expertise...

"Each Canoness rises to her position through a combination of leadership ability, shrewd tactical genius and sheer overarching faith in the Emperor."
-2E.C:SoB p22

"If a Canoness is leading the army, it has a strategy rating of 4."
-2E.C:SoB p54

For clarification, "Strategy Rating" is a discontinued mechanic derived from the aforementioned "tactical genius" that was used to gain advantages such as choosing deployment zones or who would get the first turn. By default, Space Marines and Sisters (without the aforementioned Canoness) both had a strategy rating of 3. Imperial Guard had a lowly 1.
Where the tactics of the Sisters are different is that they are very much squad-focused, in that each Superior and her Sisters are pretty much operating independently. Their superior wargear, close cameraderie and individual bravery is usually sufficient to counter the disadvantages of such uncoordinated operations, though - as well as the fact that they do not deploy in conventional long-term engagements but rather rely on mobility, i.e. "strike hard, strike fast", where each Superior would still follow a plan laid out by the Canoness before they launch their drop pods and/or flyers. It is only when the battle takes longer that this lack of coordination may start to endanger the success of the mission. Of course the Canoness may still intervene and simply bark a couple orders through the vox, though.

Please don't take those Cain novels too serious. Black Library stuff is not canon, and a lot of stuff in the Cain books goes straight against Codex fluff. The very main character would've never become a Commissar in the first place; it's like Mitchell did not understand at all how the Schola works or that they do *not* train only for the military.

Lynata wrote:Black Library stuff is not canon

LOL, okay.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Sisters are so indoctrinated that they really can hardly even be considered a military force.

That's most assuredly no true.

Cain's personal opinion of the Sisters is nothing more than Cain's personal opinion. He dislikes religious folk of any kind.

Omegus wrote:

Lynata wrote:Black Library stuff is not canon

LOL, okay.

If it contradicts fluff material written in actual rulebooks, then the Codex takes precedence and the novel is indeed, not canon. My understanding is that they are canon until proven otherwise.

Jimsolo wrote:If it contradicts fluff material written in actual rulebooks, then the Codex takes precedence and the novel is indeed, not canon. My understanding is that they are canon until proven otherwise.

Close, but given Gav's statement about adopting such material "into the worldview as promulgated by the army books and codices" I'd rather say it's not canon unless GW says so - by making the specific event, person or fact show up in a Codex. You can't adopt something that is not by default already part of it, after all. Same goes for George Mann's wording about each BL book being the respective author's "alternative world".

Still, that's something best discussed elsewhere, specifically the "what is canon" thread. I did not really intend to derail this thread with that remark, merely point out that the Cain books, in my opinion as derived from the studio material, give a very poor representation of the Sororitas and the Schola Progenium.

Zso Sahaal is the only true Nightlord left.

He is just as deluded as all the other Nightlords who deny what they truly are. Acerbus Krieg and his butchers are probably far closer to what their primarch eventualy became than Talos, Sahal and the other whiners

Jimsolo wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Lynata wrote:Black Library stuff is not canon

LOL, okay.

If it contradicts fluff material written in actual rulebooks, then the Codex takes precedence and the novel is indeed, not canon. My understanding is that they are canon until proven otherwise.

If you like it, it's canon. Done.

Puscifer wrote:I read that before and I just don't see it in Soul Hunter at all.

I still see a nobility within the 10th company. Yes their methods are suspect, but they are still of a noble breed.

The legion was brought down from the inside via the criminal element that was inducted as Astartes. They didn't fall of their own machinations, it was bred into them.

Night Haunter didn't become the villain, he destroyed his world as he had no choice. He believed in justice to the core and yes he followed it blindly, but he was not as evil or twisted as his brothers. He welcomed the Emperor's verdict when he thought that he had fallen, when in fact it was the Imperium that had begun to crumble and become a festering rot pot that saw him as a criminal.

The legion joined Horus as an ally simply to bring down the corruption of the Empire. Curze was just blind to Horus' corruption to Chaos until it was too late.

IMO anyway.

By that justification, the Emperor's Children are heroes because they refused to turn their backs on their primarch. The Thousand Sons are heroes because they tried to warn the Emperor and got massacred for it. The Alpha Legion are heroes because they are Alpharius. Regardless of the reasons a Chaos legion had for falling, 10'000 years of evil kind of cancels the good they did, and the Night Lords are especially well known for their terror tactics and slaughters.

I think a key factor in this kind of discussion is every book we read based in the Warhammer universe is from a certain perspective. Now with the Night Lords series seeing that their primarch felt that they were the good guys of course his legion would feel the same. As far as being the good guys however its all about perspective. There is only one difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter and that's the line you are standing on.

Uh, Konrad never thought that the Night Lords "were the good guys".

He knows that they're all murdering scum, by and large.

True Kan, but I think Konrad's view was skewed too far the other way. I think that his inability to become something other than a murderous psychopath made him believe that his Legion was the same, leading him to put them into a position that forced them to follow a path which would 'prove' his opinion correct. Yet another one of the tragedies of the Legion.

Good books. Lot of depth there...

well I imagine the legion would be divided about sure some have turned into butchers other might still be noble. Also in my opinion the traitor primarchs are much more interesting then the loyalist ones.

When they were primarily Terrans they probably were good guys, but as they began to recruit from Nostramo things went downhill.

Nighthaunter was a nutbag.

As were most of the primarchs. They were all obsessed with something.

Lynata wrote: By default, Space Marines and Sisters (without the aforementioned Canoness) both had a strategy rating of 3. Imperial Guard had a lowly 1.

Space Marines were a 5.

Azrael actually had a 6, making him the greatest strategic mind in the galaxy. Good lord, what happened to the Dark Angels. No other army has any room to complain about losing out in the lore department if there's a Dark Angels player in the room.

DarknessEternal wrote:Space Marines were a 5.
Azrael actually had a 6, making him the greatest strategic mind in the galaxy. Good lord, what happened to the Dark Angels. No other army has any room to complain about losing out in the lore department if there's a Dark Angels player in the room.

Hah, that's what I get for parroting other people's explanations without verification. I've now taken a look at the actual codices and stand corrected. Also, Imperial Guard isn't just a 1, it's 2.

So, the actual list seems to go as follows:

Imperial Guard army led by standard HQ: 2
Imperial Guard army led by Macharius: random between 1 and 6
Ministorum army led by Confessor: 2
Ministorum army led by Sororitas Canoness: 4
Space Marine army led by standard HQ: 5
Space Marine army led by Azrael: 6

That about right?

Thanks for the correction.

The Sisters of Battle are, almost irrefutably, 'less evil' than the Night Lords, or at least what the Night Lords have become. However, they still aren't heroes - they're simply a lesser evil.

Right, and protecting innocent civilians against pretty much everything universe throws at them is not good and right indeed....

The true 'heroes' of the 40K universe are the Imperial Guard - many of which fight with no more than basic weapons against the incomprehensible horrors of the universe. It's easy to stand defiant against a 7 foot tall Chaos Space Marine when you yourself are clad in something akin to tank armour and armed with a weapon with recoil capable of removing most peoples arms, not so much when your equipment consists of a lasgun, a flak jacket and a bayonet. Not to mention the fact that they are entirely unsung, with hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen dying every day, destined to be remembered as nothing more than cannon fodder.

We all know that, but Sisters are also heroes. I have never heard of them butchering the innocent civilians, nor alien in that manner. And I have never heard about Sisters fall massively to Chaos or simple rebel like Guard and Marines. But I have heard about them standing their ground a LOT of times allowing population to evacuate, just look at Order of Our Matured Lady - they sacrificed 2700 Sisters to save Armageddon. And you are saying that they are just "less evil" than Night Lords? They have recruited criminals for Emperor's sake, they are not batter then World Eaters who recruited maniacs. And in the end they betrayed their race because of share power, their Primarch was so ashamed he allowed to be assassinated. And if you read Sister's lore you would see that they are the ones who get killed all the time facing things that even the Guard won't hold. They may have Marine armor but they are still Human behind it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MandalorynOranj wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Sisters are so indoctrinated that they really can hardly even be considered a military force. They have little concept of strategy beyond "Hey those are bad guys, the Emperor thinks I should die killing them" and don't mesh well with other forces of the Imperium. See the Ciaphas Cain novel (forget the title) when they were on the plateau planet with the 'stealer cult. The Sisters' refusal to look at the bigger picture because it interfered with their martyrdom nearly got everyone killed.

So good or bad, I don't think is the question. I'd just say they're incompetant.

Just like the Black templars, Spesswolves, Blood Angels when they have a bad day, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists when they feel particularly stuborn...

I'd agree, except that all of them usually manage to accomplish their goals without all dying. That's at least a step up

Black Templars - 6000 Marines = overpowered.
Space Wolves - even more than that = overpowered ( and not to mention their Navy ).
Blood Angels - Bood Rage = not stable at all ( Flesh Tearers OM NOM NOM-ed Armageddon defense troops ).
Dark Angels - Half of them gone traitor during the heresy and now they must keep secret about it so that none suspect's them of heresy.
Imperial fist - Large number of Marines lost after Iron Warriors Troll them into attacking heavily fortifying world only to found - nothing. And their Primarch died in the most stupid possible way.

And you are forgetting that Sisters are not enhanced like marines. So it is logical to assume that they die in larger number than them. And they are more reliable then Marines who can show you middle finger and fly away...

Really cool image Brother

As I read the novels - the Night Lords are not supposed to be heroes - they are supposed to be:

Great characters (tick),
Often twisted and tormented (tick)
excellent anti-heroes (tick)

Equally twisted by and obsessed with their Primarch, they all act pretty much exclusively in their own (or at most thier Legions) interests. They enjoy pain and suffering in others.

I see the books as a bit like a darker version of the Dexter show - except without the "kill the guilty" aspect.

er Cain - Whilst obviously a believer, he often states his issues with "Emperor botherers". His view of the Sororitas is tainted by their zeal to get into combat and disdain of cassulties, but this view is shared by other imperial officers when serving alongside Astartes. Several of the Cain novels (notably Duty Calls) show the classic Sisters - unflincing, devout and deadily - if a little headstrong.

eg:

"...what a short while before had been an elegant formal garden, its wide lawns and flowering borders crused to mud beneath a heavng sea of chitin, mandible, and doggedly resisting Sororitas, falling back slowly as that tidal wave of malign bio-forms broke against the shore of their bolter fire and expertly wielded sarissae."

"In Nomine Imperiator" Bonica yelled, brandishing her chainsword and leaping forward to meet the patriarch head on. To my astonishment she sent it reeling back wounded....."

He is quite scathing about the Sisters in the battle for Aceralbaterra but they are initially extremely effective, distruting the swarms synapse links - which he attributes to luck. They do eventually bite of more than they can handle but as sated earlier - his descriptions are quite often very biased to be fair the Sisters are not initially overely impressed by him or his Guard units............

My main gripe with Mitchell's books is that he seems to think a senior Sister Militant is free to pursue something like personal hobbies, hanging around with outsiders and having a fun time. That's pretty much anathema to the army spirit, it's as if you'd have a novel describing Ultramarines behaving like Space Wolves.

To be fair, it seems that quite a number of Black Library authors is only peripherally aware of the details in their fluff. I'm currently reading the Enforcer omnibus, and though I do like what I've seen so far in terms of writing style and presentation of the Arbites, I have already noticed what I perceive as flaws (meaning, something that doesn't sound "in line" with the codex material) in the display of the Sororitas in just the one or two sidemark sentences they get in the first two chapters.

It's pretty much as if the authors just go like "oh yeah, there are those space nuns too" and write away what comes to their mind. It probably takes a Sisters fan to know all the details, and amongst the ranks of both GW and BL these are sorely lacking nowadays.

The thing is that - despite what GW officials and BL writers actually say - too many people still take these flawed representations as "canon", which gets especially problematic when they only know said novels and not the actual codices. Thus, it gradually twists the true image of the faction in public opinion, so in my veneration I may end up giving those books a harder time than they may deserve.

Lynata wrote:To be fair, it seems that quite a number of Black Library authors is only peripherally aware of the details in their fluff. I'm currently reading the Enforcer omnibus, and though I do like what I've seen so far in terms of writing style and presentation of the Arbites, I have already noticed what I perceive as flaws (meaning, something that doesn't sound "in line" with the codex material) in the display of the Sororitas in just the one or two sidemark sentences they get in the first two chapters.

It probably also does not help that in the case of the Sororitas in particular the fluff is limited and in some cases still evolving - indeed the very size of the militant arm of the Sisterhood is as far as I am aware unknown (or at least disputed) - including the minor orders for me there has to be many millions of them. And whilst its not perhaps total canon I have orderd the FFG book on the Ecclesiarchy to see what new info I can gleen.

The Night Lords have some varying information for different sources - sometimes BL authors ehnace the background - somethimes they diverge to a greater or lesser degree....

As we have discussed before - one character in Last Stand is debatable - however every other member of the Sororitas behaves as I think you would expect especially in Duty Calls........

Mr Morden wrote:It probably also does not help that in the case of the Sororitas in particular the fluff is limited and in some cases still evolving - indeed the very size of the militant arm of the Sisterhood is as far as I am aware unknown (or at least disputed) - including the minor orders for me there has to be many millions of them. And whilst its not perhaps total canon I have orderd the FFG book on the Ecclesiarchy to see what new info I can gleen.

I would rather call the fluff devolving, considering it has gotten fewer and fewer over the years - both in quantity as well as in detail. Whereas 2E gave us explicit numbers, 5E only gives us an extremely rough estimate. Fortunately, said estimate is still in line with the earlier sources (as for the minor Orders, the core rulebook mentioned that there are "many" of them, but each only has a hundred or so members, which sounds considerably less than millions), so I will go ahead and claim that the old numbers are still accurate.

I can recommend "Blood of Martyrs", though, at least for the inspiration it would provide. Andy Hoare, who wrote a lot for the SoB/Ecclesiarchy during his time at GW, has also written things for this supplement, and whilst I maintain it is very poor in terms of mechanics and rules, the book at least offers a wealth of useful information on the Ministorum in the Calixis sector. If the Sororitas are less elite and more numerous in your personal interpretation of the fluff, then it is possible that you will enjoy the rules, too.

Brother Coa wrote:Right, and protecting innocent civilians against pretty much everything universe throws at them is not good and right indeed....

Innocent? Innocent of what?

Innocence proves nothing.

Are you sure about the minor orders being that low - the new WD codex says:

The Orders Minoris vary in size and though some only number as few as a hundred or so Battle Sisters.... which also implies to me that just many are quite large - probably same size as a Asartes Chapter?

Although this does seem nicked almost word for word from the 2nd ed codex when they talk about the fluctuating size of the major orders.

As ypou know then these normally number 3-4000 each which only gives 18-24,000 across the galaxy.

I prefer to think of them as elites - low in number compared to the Guard - closer to the Astartes given the time and resources spent training and equiping them.

Given their wide ranged duties and size of the Imperium I think you do need quite a lot of them - even if there are very many minor orders.

Blood of Faith I really want for the fluff for my own conversion!

Mr Morden wrote:Are you sure about the minor orders being that low - the new WD codex says:
The Orders Minoris vary in size and though some only number as few as a hundred or so Battle Sisters.... which also implies to me that just many are quite large - probably same size as a Asartes Chapter?

I have yet to read it, the WD I ordered will only arrive here in the next couple days. If this new minidex implies that ~100 is not the norm for the minor Orders this would conflict with what was previously established, though. But see below for my reasoning.

Out of curiosity - did the WD address how many major Orders there are, now? The 5E rulebook mentioned only three, when previously there were six. I'd be interested to know if this was a typo or a development in reflection of their recent losses (Armageddon etc).

Sorry for hijacking this Night Lords thread for this, but inquiring minds want to know.

Mr Morden wrote:As ypou know then these normally number 3-4000 each which only gives 18-24,000 across the galaxy.

Well, together with the minor Orders (whose concept also already existed back then) they may reach 30k, which is the maximum number of warriors both Primary Convents (15k each) may house, with the purpose of said buildings being to provide shelter to all Sisters Militant, even when the majority of them is scattered throughout the Imperium on various duties and detachments. 6.000-12.000 SoB is possible with the rough "many x 100" formula. I'm not entirely sure on the 30k, but find this much more appropriate than "millions", though I will admit that my perception is also tainted by their relative rarity (see below).

It may also be a matter of political importance, for the Imperium may not wish the Adepta Sororitas to simply replace the Frateris Templar of old as a "true" army, instead remaining limited to the role of an elite and highly mobile, but comparatively small special intervention force that is capable of projecting the Ecclesiarchy's will on a planetary scale, but not able to topple entire sectors.

On top of that, it is important to remember how the minor Orders are actually created, for they are not simply founded back in the Primary Convents but rather require one of the big major Orders to be (a) on a mission where they establish a forward base to conduct their operations, (b) experience an event important enough to warrant a split-off using said base as their new convent and (c) be large enough that such a development is acknowledged and sanctified by the Prioress rather than being turned down because the Sisters are needed elsewhere. The Sororitas in a minor Order don't come from the Schola, they have to be recruited out of the existing numbers of the major Orders, whose peak size tops at 7.000 - imho they cannot just spawn hundreds of thousands of minor Orders all over the Imperium with these numbers.

Mr Morden wrote:Given their wide ranged duties and size of the Imperium I think you do need quite a lot of them - even if there are very many minor orders.

On the other hand, you really don't see many Sororitas showing up in the fluff, even in places where you would expect them to be*. When not even the major Orders with their ~20.000 Sisters are having much of a presence, what does this imply for the minor Orders which are more or less invisible? The "Big Six" are pretty much all you ever see.

Granted, this may very much be at least partially influenced by various writers' "unwillingness" to write about the SoB in their books, but it does mesh nicely with the rather low numbers implied in what little information we have.

(* an example from the Cityfight Codex: The Cathedral on Bladen was built upon the ruins of an ancient hospital from the days of the Great Crusade, where the Emperor was said to have walked. It is described as being of sector-wide importance, yet when Chaos attacked its only defenders were Cardinal Andrallos, his bodyguard of Confessors and a Cadian regiment.)

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Innocence proves nothing.

^ bonus points for the reference