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So I've finished reading Soul Hunter and from what I've gathered from the novel, various websites and every chaos codex, the Night Lords are basically the Galaxy's only heroes.

Not the legion as a whole, but particularly Talos' battlegroup. These guys hate the hypocrisy of the Imperium and the rot that has been festering within since the end of the Battle of Ullanor and they hate chaos in all it's forms. The fact that they have to ally with the forces of chaos is a nessasary evil that is used for survival purposes only.

Does anyone else have a point of view regarding this subject?

Whatever nobility existed in the Night Lords was long-ago extinguished.

Atlantic wrote:Soul Hunter

What would you say is the premise behind Soul Hunter?



"Deluded maniac justifies a mythology of lies, while convincing himself he's better than all the people he betrays and kills."

Night Lords are scum. Talos is deluded. From the horse's mouth (ADB the author). Source: http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24&start=80

I read that before and I just don't see it in Soul Hunter at all.

I still see a nobility within the 10th company. Yes their methods are suspect, but they are still of a noble breed.

The legion was brought down from the inside via the criminal element that was inducted as Astartes. They didn't fall of their own machinations, it was bred into them.

Night Haunter didn't become the villain, he destroyed his world as he had no choice. He believed in justice to the core and yes he followed it blindly, but he was not as evil or twisted as his brothers. He welcomed the Emperor's verdict when he thought that he had fallen, when in fact it was the Imperium that had begun to crumble and become a festering rot pot that saw him as a criminal.

The legion joined Horus as an ally simply to bring down the corruption of the Empire. Curze was just blind to Horus' corruption to Chaos until it was too late.

IMO anyway.

Puscifer wrote: He welcomed the Emperor's verdict when he thought that he had fallen, .

He welcomed the Emperors verdict because it showed that he employed exactly the same methods.

Puscifer wrote:
Curze was just blind to Horus' corruption to Chaos until it was too late.

He didn't care if Horus was corrupted or not, Curze had heard the whispers of Chaos all of his life, he just wanted to take as many chunks out of the Imperium as he could.

They were certainly one of the better legions at the time of the heresy. The criminal recruits were evil but the original NLs wanted the right thing. They joined chaos because they saw no other way of stopping the IoM. A victory for chaos would left the galaxy open for the NLs to try and implement a ruling system based on true justice- much easier than trying to convert the IoM. Curze certainly didn't fall to chaos- chaos is the opposite of the conplete order he wished to impose. Chaos would have died out if Curze had taken control.

I don't believe Curze ever really believed he was going to spread justice across the galaxy, but would rather try and fail than support and imperium he hated. He saw what had happened to his legion so was happy to destroy them in war they could never win.

Personally I view Curze and the original NLs as good. The Night Haunter appears to be evil but his aim was to judge everybody the same. His methods were harsh but the intention was right. He shows he isn't just a psycopath wanting to control the galaxy when he lets the assasin kill him. No one was above justic, not even himself.

The current NLs on the other hand are mainly as bad as all the other CSMs. There are probably some warbands that still follow Curzes ideas but most have drifted towards chaos.

Puscifer wrote:I read that before and I just don't see it in Soul Hunter at all.

I still see a nobility within the 10th company. Yes their methods are suspect, but they are still of a noble breed.

The legion was brought down from the inside via the criminal element that was inducted as Astartes. They didn't fall of their own machinations, it was bred into them.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that all of the Night Lords were thugs, murderers, and assorted psychopaths even before they became Astartes specializing in terror tactics and slaughter.

Night Haunter didn't become the villain, he destroyed his world as he had no choice. He believed in justice to the core and yes he followed it blindly, but he was not as evil or twisted as his brothers. He welcomed the Emperor's verdict when he thought that he had fallen, when in fact it was the Imperium that had begun to crumble and become a festering rot pot that saw him as a criminal.

Night Naunter became the villain long before the Heresy, when he almost beat Dorn to death. He was already a persona non grata in the Imperium, and right before the Heresy had been called to face justice on Terra. He destroyed his world not because he had no choice, but to make a point. Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children were hard on his heels to bring him to Terra, and he basically nuked the planet in the last second and bailed before they could grab him.

Of course, the man also likely had a borderline personality disorder linked to his prophetic visions.

Read Blood Reaver yet? It paints them with a slightly less glorious picture. The raptors from the Bleeding Eyes, Third Claw, and most pointedly Uzas, all serve to show the gradual decline of the legion as a whole

The Night Lords believed that they were wronged by the Imperium. They felt that they had to sacrifice their own decency in order to do the dirty deeds that the Imperium needed to have done while allowing all the other legions to keep their hands clean. And then they were condemned for it. Night Haunter believed that while he had become a monster, it was only because the Imperium required it, and therefore just as he deserved to die for his wickedness so too did the Imperium.

But in fact the reality was that they did all these terrible things because they liked it, and all their justifications were just lies they told themselves. You know, because they were a legion of psychopathic criminals and their primarch was just totally nuts. Xarl pretty much recognizes this in Blood Reaver.

Night Lords are just another tragic story of all the original Legions, founded for Noble reasons like justice, but ultimately corrupted. There are no true heroes in 40K all have some grimdarkness to them. Even the Ultras with their codex up their read the Ultramarines book where Uriel is persecuted for winning the battle in the wrong way.

Well I'm moving onto Throne of Lies now, then I shall start Blood Reaver.

ATM, I think that 10th company are not a typical CSM force. Renegade maybe, hating the Imperium definitely, hating Chaos absolutely (but having to ally with them as a means to accomplish their goal of bringing down the corruption of Chaos and the Imperium).

Are all of First Claw or 10th company original Night Lords, or is this explained in Blood Reaver?

Puscifer wrote:the Night Lords are basically the Galaxy's only heroes.

No.

The Sisters of Battle, for example, are far more heroic than the Night Lords. They fight to protect those of the faithful who can't protect themselves. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made, but such a decision isn't something to be taken lightly.

The Sisters of Battle are simply self-righteous delusionists given to slaughtering populations of innocent people due to paranoia of heresy or disobedience. In their own minds they are heroes, but from a neutral standpoint they are nothing more than space-Nazis.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:The Sisters of Battle are simply self-righteous delusionists given to slaughtering populations of innocent people due to paranoia of heresy or disobedience. In their own minds they are heroes, but from a neutral standpoint they are nothing more than space-Nazis.

Them and the entire IOM as a whole.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Night Lords believed that they were wronged by the Imperium. They felt that they had to sacrifice their own decency in order to do the dirty deeds that the Imperium needed to have done while allowing all the other legions to keep their hands clean. And then they were condemned for it. Night Haunter believed that while he had become a monster, it was only because the Imperium required it, and therefore just as he deserved to die for his wickedness so too did the Imperium.

Uh, no, not really. The Night Lords didn't feel like they had to sacrifice their own decency, they were a bunch of murderers and sadists with no decency to sacrifice. As for Curze himself, every Primarch had his own approach to conquest, Curze favoring scaring the bejesus out of people to keep them in line through fear. He frequently had disagreements with fellow Primarchs over this approach (particularly Dorn). He knew that his vision was not compatible with that of the Imperium long before the Heresy.

Age of Darkness gives plenty of insight into his head.

The Nightlords are butchers, all of them. Some delude themselfs by claiming higher motives but at the end of the day they are just as savage and cruel as those Nightlords who openly follow the dark gods.
That doesn't has to mean that they are two dimensional idiot-villains, but heroes they definately aren't.


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Abstract Catalyst wrote:The Sisters of Battle are simply self-righteous delusionists given to slaughtering populations of innocent people due to paranoia of heresy or disobedience. In their own minds they are heroes, but from a neutral standpoint they are nothing more than space-Nazis.

And yet the Nightlords, even the "decent" ones openly revel in the slaughter they bring. There is no victim to innocent not to be butchered, no brother trusted enough to let your guard down even for a moment and no betrayal to dishonorable if it only serves the legionaries purpose. In a way the Nightlords ( at least those depicted by Bowden ) are worse than the barely sane Word Bearers, who at least know brotherhood amongst themselfs.
The sisters might make the taliban look like hippies, but at the very least they follow some kind of recognisable ethics ( don't kill someone unless necessary, protect those who cannot protect themselfs... ) something that cannot be said for the Nightlords.

Omegus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Night Lords believed that they were wronged by the Imperium. They felt that they had to sacrifice their own decency in order to do the dirty deeds that the Imperium needed to have done while allowing all the other legions to keep their hands clean. And then they were condemned for it. Night Haunter believed that while he had become a monster, it was only because the Imperium required it, and therefore just as he deserved to die for his wickedness so too did the Imperium.

Uh, no, not really. The Night Lords didn't feel like they had to sacrifice their own decency, they were a bunch of murderers and sadists with no decency to sacrifice.

That's not what they told themselves. They convinced themselves that they did what they did because it was necessary, not because of the real reason (i.e. they enjoyed it). This is the whole point of the exchange between Mercutian and Xarl in Blood Reaver.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Night Lords background (their Primarch in particular) based off Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" (and, by association, "Apocalypse Now"). If that's the case, than it seems, much like the forces of Col. Kurtz, while they were hero's at one point, they've descended too far into madness to still be considered "true heros".

Puscifer wrote:Them and the entire IOM as a whole.

Not true, the Salamanders, Ultramarines etc seem decent fellas, they stand up for civilians for no reason other than a loyallty to their brothers and their species. There are heroes and villains in both sides of any war, but I dont think you can say noble decent astartes who arent happy about brutalising civilians and put themselves in harms way to aid random civilians can be REALLY bad guys, regardless of whether their faith in the emperor is right or wrong.

Puscifer wrote:So I've finished reading Soul Hunter and from what I've gathered from the novel, various websites and every chaos codex, the Night Lords are basically the Galaxy's only heroes.

Not the legion as a whole, but particularly Talos' battlegroup. These guys hate the hypocrisy of the Imperium and the rot that has been festering within since the end of the Battle of Ullanor and they hate chaos in all it's forms. The fact that they have to ally with the forces of chaos is a nessasary evil that is used for survival purposes only.

Does anyone else have a point of view regarding this subject?

Even the Emperor's Children and Death Guard were both honorable and righteous before heresy.
Night Lords were bunch of murderous, while World Eaters were bunch of crazy maniacs.

Brother Coa wrote:

Puscifer wrote:So I've finished reading Soul Hunter and from what I've gathered from the novel, various websites and every chaos codex, the Night Lords are basically the Galaxy's only heroes.

Not the legion as a whole, but particularly Talos' battlegroup. These guys hate the hypocrisy of the Imperium and the rot that has been festering within since the end of the Battle of Ullanor and they hate chaos in all it's forms. The fact that they have to ally with the forces of chaos is a nessasary evil that is used for survival purposes only.

Does anyone else have a point of view regarding this subject?

Even the Emperor's Children and Death Guard were both honorable and righteous before heresy.
Night Lords were bunch of murderous, while World Eaters were bunch of crazy maniacs.

Oh my god, for once I agreed with Brother Coa. The Night Lords are hypocrites. They are greedy, selfish raiders who delight in the adrenaline rush of battle and the pain they inflict on others. Talos was an idiot who assumed that his ability to predict the future didn't come from the warp. Infact the Death Guard are nicer than the Night Lords and the Emperor's Children are at least honest.

I don't think it's as simple as they were good or bad. Just as in real life, there are shades of grey.

The Night Lords intentions were noble, their actions definitely not. And, as Abbadabbadoobadon pointed out, it is certainly strongly implied that at least a lot of them enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering on the weak.

They are my favorite legion because of the layers they have. Curze is a total bad ass, space batman who seems to be focused on justice, but definitely at least partially mad. His greatest redeeming quality was allowing himself to be killed, which indicates he held himself to the same standard of justice he did others. But, it is also implied that he hated himself and his sons.

It's all very complex, twisted, and pretty much fething awesome. They are the coolest chapter, IMO, for their layers. That to me is so much more interesting than the one dimensional World Eaters or similar legions.

You really should read Joseph Conrads "Heart of Darkness" if you want to know where Konrad Curze (and the Night Lords) come from. Failing that, watch Francis Ford Coppola's film, "Apocalypse Now", and pay attention to everything said by, and about, Marlon Brando's character, as this film is an adaptation (and update, at the time) of the book mentioned earlier.

Well, you see, Willard, in this war, things get confused out there. Power, ideals, the old morality, and practical military necessity. But out there with these natives, it must be a temptation to be God. Because there's a conflict in every human heart, between the rational and irration, between good and evil. And good does not always triumph. Sometimes, the dark side overcomes what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature.

I don't think you can really call the Night Lords heroes. Don't get me wrong, I love that book series. Absolutely love it. While at one juncture, you may have been right, the years since the Heresy have driven the Night Lords to forget their original purpose. In the isolation since their rebellion, they have as a Legion, become as corrupt as their allies. Their tragedy is that they can still remember when they had a purpose, when they still had some semblance of nobility. It makes the few times when they can reclaim that (like Vandred in the end of Blood Reaver) all the more awesome. The knowledge of where they came from makes their moments of brutality (such as Talos's at the end of Soul Hunter) even more horrific.

If you want other heroes, check out Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain series, or really anything written by Dan Abnett. The Salamander series by Nick Kyme is another good one.

I agree - they are great characters in really excellent novels but they are not herioc - if anything I see them as anti-heroes capable of appalling acts because it amuses or fulfills them.

as has been stated there are other more heroic figures in the 40K mythos

Abstract Catalyst wrote:The Sisters of Battle are simply self-righteous delusionists given to slaughtering populations of innocent people due to paranoia of heresy or disobedience.

So basically you're arguing they're like the Night Lords but with better press?

Sisters might slaughter populations, but only if it's absolutely necessary. Most of what sisters do is actually protecting the populace. In the Tyrannic wars (the various Tyranid invasions) for example, they would lay their lives down to protect civilians as they evacuated planets, where the Night Lords would have simply left them to their fate. Indeed, Saint Praxedes is renowned for exactly that.

Night Lords just slaughter because they're sick bastards who want to cause fear for fear's sake.

@Puscifer

Check out the Soul Drinker saga.

FuryTheBerserker wrote:@Puscifer

Check out the Soul Drinker saga.

No don't. Burning your money is a more sensible investment than the Souldrinkers novels.

KingDeath wrote:

FuryTheBerserker wrote:@Puscifer

Check out the Soul Drinker saga.

No don't. Burning your money is a more sensible investment than the Souldrinkers novels.

Amen to this. The Souldrinker novels are quite possibly the most horrible published work I've ever seen. Just awful. I've literally seen stories written by third graders with better attention to composition.

Read the Soul Drinkers novel and wanted to claw my eyes out.

Did not like it.