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Death Company is not effective even in a Rhino, if you intend to run them you will need a storm raven or a land raider. I prefer Raven as most of my army is DoA it allows them to get where you want fast. Place them in an area where your opponents main force is and let them run wild. A squad of five with chaplain jump packs two power weapons and a powerfist or thunderhammer can catch and chew through just about anything. If you don't like the cost of packs they aren't necessary although I prefer them.

Sanguinary Guard will only ever be good with Dante dropping in and popping something important, or onto an important objective where since they are troops now they can take it. Not recommended competitively.

What competitive assault squads as troops and have one of the units with lightning claws to make a big impact in combat?

I think you need some competitive assault marines competing competitively with a couple of baal predators for your points allocation. Throw in some competitive competition to compete wth the predators for the fast attack slots with 3 land speeders. Gotta have 3... anything less is just for "friendly" games. but give them flamers so they can be totally competitive against orks and nids and IG. Not just any famer either... competitive kinds of flamers, like heavy flamers. Plain old flamers just can't compete with their awesomeness. Next you round out he whole thing with some wierd stuff like a flying tank or a psyker dreadnought tricked out with a cool forgeworld base so it can compete in the modelling points category. You can compete with that kind of stuff by default with stuff like flying competitive tanks to land on the competition, because you can take them and the other guy cant so that's like a forfeit game. No contest! See Death Company aren't really competitivebecause they aren't really competing cause they just want to die so even when they win, they lose... It's like playing knowing you're going to lose, not cool... definitely not in the spirit of being competitive at any rate. You definitely need lots of competitive dice too. Red ones preferrably, with like skulls for the ones so everybody knows you got competitiveness on your mind.

Well Blood Angels are actually really competitive. Here is the list I recommend, more or less for Blood Angels.

Astorath the Grim =220

Reclusiarch(Jump Pack, Meltabombs) =155

3x Chaplains (Jump Pack, Meltabombs) =375

5x5 Assault Marines(1w/ Meltagun, Sergeant w/ PwrWpn, Meltabombs) = 650

5 Assault Marines(Sergeant w/ PwrWpn, Meltabombs) = 120

3x 10 Vanguard Marines(Jump Packs, 2/ Meltabombs) = 495

This is list has served me well over the years(similar ones that is), but my current version has done extremely well. Astorath will give half of your army Furious Charge and Fearless making them quite scary. The Vanguard Marines will pop in with Descent of angels and assault any artillery/gunboats they can find. Split up the meltabombs with the combat squads so that each gets one. The Key to this army is remembering your Krak grenades. S6 hits on rear armour will GENERALLY give you a 4+ to glance.

Hug cover as much as possible. FYI what I do is stick each of the Chaplains, Reclusiarch, and Astorath with one of the 5 troop squads with melta guns. The last one will be used for holding onto objectives.

The only army I've ever struggled with is the recent Grey Knights provided they have a horde of strike squads. This is only because EVERYTHING in GK has power weapons, and despite my +1I on charge I can't manage to take on all of their power weapon shenanigans.

Achilles i kinda like your build, its very different than what most peeps build in here...however dont you struggle w/out FNP ? and melta bombs aint that good against inf or stuff you need to instant kill...havent you struggle witht hat?

Here's a more standard DoA style list, full of Melta and redundancy.

HQ: Librarian with Jump Pack, Shield and Unleash Rage 125
HQ: Honor Guard with Jump Packs, 4 Meltaguns 205
EL: 2 Sanguinary Priests with Jump Packs 150
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist 235
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist 235
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist 235
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Flamers, single Lightning Claw 215
FA: 5 Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs, Power Fist Sergeant 175
FA: 5 Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs, Power Fist Sergeant 175

Total: 1750

Here's a variant that will start on the table, and has more fire support:

HQ: Librarian with Jump Pack, Shield and Unleash Rage 125
HQ: Honor Guard with Jump Packs, 4 Meltaguns 205
EL: 2 Sanguinary Priests, one with Jump Pack 125
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist 235
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist 235
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Flamers, single Lightning Claw, Meltabombs 220
TR: 10 Assault Marines, 2 Flamers, single Lightning Claw 215
HS: 5 Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers 130
HS: 5 Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers 130
HS: 5 Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers 130

Total: 1750

yeenoghu wrote:I think you need some competitive assault marines competing competitively with a couple of baal predators for your points allocation. Throw in some competitive competition to compete wth the predators for the fast attack slots with 3 land speeders. Gotta have 3... anything less is just for "friendly" games. but give them flamers so they can be totally competitive against orks and nids and IG. Not just any famer either... competitive kinds of flamers, like heavy flamers. Plain old flamers just can't compete with their awesomeness. Next you round out he whole thing with some wierd stuff like a flying tank or a psyker dreadnought tricked out with a cool forgeworld base so it can compete in the modelling points category. You can compete with that kind of stuff by default with stuff like flying competitive tanks to land on the competition, because you can take them and the other guy cant so that's like a forfeit game. No contest! See Death Company aren't really competitivebecause they aren't really competing cause they just want to die so even when they win, they lose... It's like playing knowing you're going to lose, not cool... definitely not in the spirit of being competitive at any rate. You definitely need lots of competitive dice too. Red ones preferrably, with like skulls for the ones so everybody knows you got competitiveness on your mind.

Oh my god I only just read this entire post. You are a LEGEND for making me laugh so hard

BloodTzar wrote:Ok to make this more clear:

A terms:

3LC - 2TH/SS + SS TDA Lib (rage, shield) + TDA Priest = 15 pw attacks at I5 S5 with reroll to hit (12 reroll to wound) + 3 that can be force weap if you need to (you loose rerolls) + 4 S9 I1 (rerolls to hit)
Still having 2+/ 3++ and 5++ on most of the stuff + having hood and full control + FNP

Total cost : 440 p

DC (to be semi-competetive)

8 ccw/Bp - 1PW/bp -1 TH + Rech...(w/ever spelling that HQ chaplain has) = 32 non-pw I5 S5 attacks + 4I5 S5 PW + 2 S9 I1 (all rerolls to hit/wound) + 5 PW I6 (not sure with his stats)

While having, 3+ / and 1 4++ T4 means very fragile to ID + very limited control of your own stuff...


Total cost : 380 p

IMO I would stick with A terms, I only use DC to get cheap Dread in troops section ...

PS. dont have my dex in here so some of the attack math can be wrong, however i do belive its accuarate. In a case it is i am sorry in advance...

OMG why would you have BP/ccw weapons on these guys? At least have bolters for the range so they don't get baited until they die...

Hmm just because 4 attacks on charge >>> 3 + 1 rapid fire that may cost you whole charge , because smart opponent will take models in your charge range. No charge no FC. Enough said.

Because if your smart then you can stop them from being baited.

I saw some discussions about DC in the upper comments and I must support DC in a competitive army.

1. How much is a normal Tac Marine? 19pnts. How much is a DC? 20pnts. For only 1pnt you get +1 WS, FNP, Furious Charge and Fearless. And when a Chaplain joins, they get to re-roll failed Hits and Wounds. How can you say that's bad? If you field 5 DC they are 100pnts. Normal 5-man Tac squad costs 90pnts. Only 10pnts difference.

2. Wargear options. Ok, I must admit wargear for DC is fairly costly but pause and think: how much damage can these guys dish out with these fancy giz-moz?

3. Transports. Certainly, Rage makes them quite easy to manipulate around. This problem can be easily fixed by a simple 35pnt Rhino. I like to mount my boyz in black in a Storm Raven but that's just my personal taste.


That's just my personal thoughts on the DC. I believe that they can be a very effective unit even in competitive games. I bring them to every game with my BA.


Answering your latter question: I think Baal Preds are quite nice. TL Assault cannons with 2 HB will definitely raze some infantry down. The only down-side is that they are a little more costly than regular Preds but this guy will definitely kill more infantry than the regular Pred. Plus in can Scout and is Fast, taking that 24inch range problem of the Assault Cannon away.

No SM are 15 points, and DC has rage which sucks and your enemy could just use you as bait and fish you away.
Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote: No SM are 15 points, and DC has rage which sucks and your enemy could just use you as bait and fish you away.
Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

And oh how the tune changes, and yet still displays that lack of actual understanding...

Hey since you've played Marines before, how would you like your predators to be FAST vehicles instead of normal move 6" fire 1 gun kind of vehicles?

they can get twin linked assault cannons and ap 3 fllaaaaammmeerrrss

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote: No SM are 15 points, and DC has rage which sucks and your enemy could just use you as bait and fish you away.
Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

o_O three identical posts...

instead of repeating your question, how about you answer my response- how would you like it if your predators were fast tanks, and could take things like twin linked assault cannons or AP3 flamers?

Baals are good two reasons. Number one, they allow you to put 6 AV13 tanks on the table. This will give unprepared opponents fits, and they synergize well with Auto/Las Predators. Second, because they are both Fast and Scouts, they can fairly easily get side shots, and the TL-AC is great against AV10 and AV11.

What they are not great at is killing infantry (except Flamestorm Baals, which are generally regarded as weak). The TL-AC has a decent chance of killing a Terminator or two in a round of shooting, but even with HB sponsons, you'll kill 5.63 Orks out of cover per round of shooting, or 6.29 Guardsmen. This would be useful, but you sadly have to expect infantry to have cover these days, which means you'll kill 2.8 Orks or 3.15 Guardsmen per turn. This is assuming you don't move 12" and can get line of sight with both sponsons, which isn't trivial. The target you really want to see with Heavy Bolters is Dark Eldar vehicles, actually.

In my opinion, while Baals are great, you shouldn't take them unless you've already used your Heavy Support slots. I'd much rather have an Auto/Las Predator for 135 points than a Baal Predator for 115 or 145.

@MrEconomics: Baal Preds are Fast Attack I believe....

Diesel Stradin wrote:@MrEconomics: Baal Preds are Fast Attack I believe....

Exactly. That's the source of a huge chunk of their value. My point is that they aren't as good as Auto/Las Predators or 2x TL-AC Dreads, so you should take the Heavy Support tanks first, then add Baals once you've filled those FOC slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP: Do you have any Space Marine models at all? If so, what are they? If you don't, you'll want to start with several boxes of Assault Marines, at least one set of Meltaguns, and some magnets.

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote: No SM are 15 points, and DC has rage which sucks and your enemy could just use you as bait and fish you away.
Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:Ok ok. With that said, I will take your guys army lists and use them as reference. I won't copy it but I will use your advice. So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with? And why are baal predators worth it?
-Thanks

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:So, I have about $100.00 to spend and extra for tax. What should I buy to start out with?
-Thanks

Is anyone else finding this as offensive as me?

.

Its all there. He keeps asking over and over again what to spend his $100.00 on. 4 times. He just keeps on asking, regardless of what anyone says!

You also keep misquoting him as Dark Angels Champ-Master instead of Lord of Baal.

Spend your 100$ on some competitive units. You know, the competitive kind with 'competitive' listed as a special rule...BA have that, right?

I have been asking that over and over because no one will answer my question. It is being skipped over a few times. Sorry if it was bothering, I will accompany your needs better next time. Ha ha ha. And Black Sails, I have not found that special rule any where, not in any codex of mine.
Warhammer 40k Rulebook
Warhammer 40k Pocket Book
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Tau Empire
Dark Eldar

L. Wrex

This isn't the what to buy forum, its the tactics forum. At some point you are gonna have to take the information presented here (or in the multitude of other BA related posts and threads here or in other sections like batreps and lists) and make a decision.

But I am feeling informative and I just spent a good chunk of money and time planning out a fresh new BA army.

Let me boil it down for you -- what kind of BA army do you want to make? You want mech spam? Or jump packers? Either are competitive. Mech spam is arguably more so (or at least in this players opinion easier to play well and less likely to have a bad matchup). Jumpers is easier on the wallet though which is a consideration. There's other builds but at the core of any list is really still jumper or mech based to some degree.

In either case you can't go wrong with a librarian, 1-2 sanguinary priests and 20 ASM. You can get there via the following

power armor Librarian blister of choice

Command Squad box (pricey but lots of good bits and tradeable items -- sanguinary priest bits, various ccws and special weapons -- then buy or trade for the jump pack bitz pack if using the marines for jumper army)

Assault marine box.

DC box (lotsa good bits even if you don't use the actual DC unit, mix with regular marine bits and paint em all red)

Magnets -- BA army from scratch should have ASM with magnetized back packs so you can run them mech or jumper at some point.

melta guns -- beg, borrow, trade, get the metal ones from GW or find online bitz seller.

After you have about 20+ ASM (4 Meltagunners, 16 bp/ccws and optional additional sgts with fists if going jumper) then get razorback boxes if going mech and/or if going jumper extra jump pack bits for your lib and priests and spare marine bodies if going jumper. I personally planned my army out to do both. Then its just a matter of fleshing out the list to taste and covering your bases.

For mech
Predators or rifle dreads, both have advantages but I prefer preds in BA for the speed.
Baals, speeders and attack bikes are all viable.
Land Raider or Raven only if wanting to add beatstick(s) like terminators, dreads or DC

For jumper
More ASM typically
Attack bikes mesh nicely imo, but some eschew them for pure jumper
Devestators are an option also -- getting the tactical boxes and buying/trading/coverting for MLs

And no I am not telling you what to buy beyond the above. Others may have more suggestions

Thanks for being rude. I am sorta a noob. I just want to get better. And I have a budget so I need to get sufficient points quickly. So money is a tactic as well. Trying to buy units at a sufficient rate without spending too much money you little rich kids. Be great full for what you have, and try too improve Dakka Dakka's community. Isn't it for the better? Not for worse, I hope. Thanks, and remember to always be polite on Dakka Dakka!

Lord of Baal wrote:Thanks for being rude. I am sorta a noob. I just want to get better. And I have a budget so I need to get sufficient points quickly. So money is a tactic as well. Trying to buy units at a sufficient rate without spending too much money you little rich kids. Be great full for what you have, and try too improve Dakka Dakka's community. Isn't it for the better? Not for worse, I hope. Thanks, and remember to always be polite on Dakka Dakka!

I hope this was not directed toward me, because I was far from rude.

No, don't worry, it was mainly to inform the people of Dakka Dakka, you too. On average, 94% of the people who have higher IQs than average, typically have more wealth than others. Do you see where I am going with this? Please be aware some people don't have that much money as others, I am middle class, still get lots of money every day, (about $50.00 a week on average) but I am still great full. 1% of the world owns 40% of the planet yet 30% of the world works off of on average, $2.00 a day. Do you think they know what Warhammer 40k is? Please don't be rash to the community and respect peoples wages. (I'm still a kid though...)

.

A couple things will go a long way toward not getting rude replies, irritated posters (which I will admit I was at the start of my post), joke posts, trolls and the like.

--Follow the guidlines specific to that forum like the ones for the 40k tactics

You've posted a vague tactics thread, followed up by an equally vague off topic post regarding model purchases. Not usually a good base of posts to hang a thread on. Its why this thread has gone wildly in various directions and why my post started out the way it did.

--More info is required from you before folks are going to reply in kind.

As just one example, all I know now regarding my post is that it offended. Did it make sense? Are you going to use the info provided? Are you leaning one way or another? Any questions regarding things mentioned.

I spent a good chunk of time writing that up, in the hopes that it helped you out. Yet it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Kudos though, unlike some posters your age you at least use punctuation and capitalization and avoid netspeak, which is always nice -- likely a reason you have any posts in the thread at all.

Good luck in your endeavors though. I personally started collecting with very little funds and used aftermarket purchases from vet gamers to get started. That might be your best bet.

Thanks for the good luck, take care.