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Didn't we have this exact thread some time ago DeathReaper? You couldn't prove it back then and you can't now. The amount of unsaved wounds you can suffer are completely disconnected from your Wound statistic.

You suffer an unsaved wounds before removing a single Wound form your profile or even removing models, otherwise FNP wouldn't work. That way the hive tyrant suffers 5 unsaved wounds at once and then loses all his 4 Wounds and is removed as casualty.

This thread/DeathReaper makes baby Horus cry.

Death Reaper rarely in non-Academic situations will the majority of people have incorrect thinking. Accept the way the rules are or just stop trying to preach your way.

I don't have my brb with me atm but FNPs wording is virtually identical to acid blood. When you fail 12 armor saves and have fnp you've suffered 12 wounds and now make 12 fnp saves. Byyour logic you'd only ever have to take as many fnp tests aas you have wounds.

The combat res rules state to ignore excess wounds for combat res. From this we can infer fthey count for everything else. If the furiouso was in b2b with a carni with 2 wounds and also in b2b with a hive tyrant and did 3 wounds to the carniN it would indeed get 3 more attacks.

Yonush wrote:I don't have my brb with me atm but FNPs wording is virtually identical to acid blood. When you fail 12 armor saves and have fnp you've suffered 12 wounds and now make 12 fnp saves. Byyour logic you'd only ever have to take as many fnp tests aas you have wounds.

Apples and oranges, here is why:

12 wounds on a model with FNP.

Make the first FNP 4+ so you ignore that wound.

Fail the second, the model is removed.

How many unsaved wounds did you suffer, you suffered one then were removed as a casualty.

you cant suffer more wounds than you have. Once you remove the last wound you are removed as a casualty.

Look at page 26 under "Multiple-Wound models" it states "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one wound from its profile. Once the model has lost all of its Wounds, it is removed as a casualty."

So to suffer an unsaved wound you need to lose a wound from its profile. Once the model has been removed you do not apply any more unsaved wounds, as there is nothing to apply the unsaved wounds too, since you remove the model once it has lost all its wounds.

You have to be on the table to suffer an unsaved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:I don't have my brb with me atm but FNPs wording is virtually identical to acid blood. When you fail 12 armor saves and have fnp you've suffered 12 wounds and now make 12 fnp saves. Byyour logic you'd only ever have to take as many fnp tests aas you have wounds.

Apples and oranges, here is why:

12 wounds on a model with FNP.

Make the first FNP 4+ so you ignore that wound.

Fail the second, the model is removed.

How many unsaved wounds did you suffer, you suffered one then were removed as a casualty.

you cant suffer more wounds than you have. Once you remove the last wound you are removed as a casualty.

Look at page 26 under "Multiple-Wound models" it states "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one wound from its profile. Once the model has lost all of its Wounds, it is removed as a casualty."

So to suffer an unsaved wound you need to lose a wound from its profile. Once the model has been removed you do not apply any more unsaved wounds, as there is nothing to apply the unsaved wounds too, since you remove the model once it has lost all its wounds.

You have to be on the table to suffer an unsaved wound.

Do you roll all your saves individually? I sure don't. In fact I don't know anyone who does aside from nob bikers or wolfstar cavalry where it is required to allocate..and even then the wound 'batches' are rolled in groups. Wounds and Saves are dealt and taken simultaneously, which is why the overkill is possible in the first place.

Lesson here? Kill the tyrant with krak missiles instead of overkilling when he has acid blood. It's not that difficult a tactic to counter, I don't know why you are trying SO HARD to invalidate it especially when the rules (and majority of commenters here) do not support the way you are (mis)interpreting the rulebook.

DeathReaper wrote:How many unsaved wounds did you suffer, you suffered one then were removed as a casualty.

Beeep, wrong.

You suffer an unsaved wound for each save you fail. Then, some time later, you are removed as casualty.
In addition, you are forced to roll all your saves at once and thus suffer all your unsaved wounds at once.

See BRB pg. 24, 25 and 26 for reference.

Jidmah wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:How many unsaved wounds did you suffer, you suffered one then were removed as a casualty.

Beeep, wrong.

You suffer an unsaved wound for each save you fail. Then, some time later, you are removed as casualty.
In addition, you are forced to roll all your saves at once and thus suffer all your unsaved wounds at once.

See BRB pg. 24, 25 and 26 for reference.

Page 24, under Remove casualties disagrees with you.

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty"

They are immediately removed, which would mean they are removed before anything else happens.

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:How many unsaved wounds did you suffer, you suffered one then were removed as a casualty.

Beeep, wrong.

You suffer an unsaved wound for each save you fail. Then, some time later, you are removed as casualty.
In addition, you are forced to roll all your saves at once and thus suffer all your unsaved wounds at once.

See BRB pg. 24, 25 and 26 for reference.

Page 24, under Remove casualties disagrees with you.

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty"

They are immediately removed, which would mean they are removed before anything else happens.

DR - You're quoting one rule at the *exception* of all others. That's not how the game works! The saves are taken/failed AT THE SAME TIME. That is the point you fail to acknowledge. At that point you tally the dead, pull out applicable models, and move on with the game. It's simple and you're running this thread in circles denying it!

I'm done. Nothing i say will convince you otherwise. I can only hope I never face you in a game, because I don't think it would be fun arguing for 2.5 hours straight over clear rules you choose not to understand.

Sidetrack for a moment, what about an Archon with a Shadowfield? He must roll one at a time. Let's use the Furiouso example from page 1: The Furiouso (S 6) deals 3 wounds. The Archon fails his first Shadowfield save, dying instantly. Does this change the way wounds are interpreted, since the saves are rolled one at a time? Does it get 3 bonus attacks (for dealing ID to a 3-wound model), or 5 (for dealing ID to a 3-wound model, and then having 2 other attacks with unsaved wounds)?

tetrisphreak wrote:

DR - You're quoting one rule at the *exception* of all others. That's not how the game works! The saves are taken/failed AT THE SAME TIME. That is the point you fail to acknowledge. At that point you tally the dead, pull out applicable models, and move on with the game. It's simple and you're running this thread in circles denying it!

I'm done. Nothing i say will convince you otherwise. I can only hope I never face you in a game, because I don't think it would be fun arguing for 2.5 hours straight over clear rules you choose not to understand.

Saves are taken and failed at the same time, however you immediately remove one model per unsaved wound. What happens to the "unsaved wounds" in excess of a models profile?

Eg: A unit with 2 wound groups and 1 wound each, a Sgt with a power fist, and a regular marine. They take 3 saves 2 on the reg, 1 on the sarge, the sarge makes his save, the reg fails both, what happens to that extra wound? nothing as they have not actually been suffered, because there is no one to suffer them.

somerandomdude wrote:Sidetrack for a moment, what about an Archon with a Shadowfield? He must roll one at a time. Let's use the Furiouso example from page 1: The Furiouso (S 6) deals 3 wounds. The Archon fails his first Shadowfield save, dying instantly. Does this change the way wounds are interpreted, since the saves are rolled one at a time? Does it get 3 bonus attacks (for dealing ID to a 3-wound model), or 5 (for dealing ID to a 3-wound model, and then having 2 other attacks with unsaved wounds)?

Shadowfield has a specific special rule that requires you to roll each save one at a time, individually. Actually further proving the point that normally all saves are taken, rolled, and saved/failed at the same time.

OK lets start from the beginning.

I want to make a distinction first:

1. Wounds -> equal to hitpoints.
2. wounds -> the number of successes of a "to wound roll"
3. unsaved wounds -> the remaining number of successes from the previous "to wound" roll after all saving throws have been made

what we are talking about is, that there is a difference between "losing Wounds" and "suffering unsaved wounds".

An example: A unit of lets say TH/SS-Termies.

They take a beating from the Hive tyrant and he puts 4 wounds on them, so wound number is 4.
They pass 2 SS invul saves, so the number of unsaved wounds is 2.
Now for every unsaved wound suffered, a model in the unit loses a Wound until its Wound characteristic is =0.
A TH/SS Termie has only one Wound, so we will talk about losing 1 Wound each.

So the numbers are:

4 wounds
2 unsaved wounds
1+1 lost Wounds

In case of the acid blood, we have the following procedure:

1. the TH/SS Termies cause 12 wounds
2. The tyrant has no saves against it, so there are also 12 unsaved wounds (which is a fact)
3. This results in losing 4 Wounds
and the TH/SS Termies will have to do 12 initiative tests afterwards according to the acid blood rule, because they have to do one for each unsaved wound, and not one for each lost Wound.

Nazdreg has it exactly right. However, this has been explained to DeathReaper dozens of times by dozens of people. He will still claim it to be wrong. Really a lost case.

Except that Suffering unsaved wounds = Losing wounds.

Yes, but not IMMEDIATELY!!!

RAW, there is nothing that tells you to stop rolling wounds after the model has been removed. There is nothing that states that you specifically do not roll any wounds once the model/unit is dead.

Usually, this doesn't actually make a difference, but this is one of those exceptions.

Now, I know we will not change his mind on this, but I do think it's funny that he says FNP is comparing apples to oranges for the wound fight. Model with FNP takes 12 wounds, but since it only has 1 wound it can possible take, his logic says, you take 1 FNP roll, but no, no, this can't be the way FNP works, even though the rule book says, for every unsaved wound (same as acid blood, the exact same wording) a model may roll a dice, on a 4 5 or 6, the model ignores the wound, on a 1 2 or 3 the model takes the wound as normal. Now, with the wording matching to the letter, DR, I am soryr but that makes it apples to apples. I would be all for only every having to take 1 FNP save for 12 wounds. As stated, this will not change your mind, we all know this. I just had to point out what gave me a chuckle today.

@ reg: Except with FNP if you roll one die and make your save, there is another you must take, since you are ignoring the first one.

If you fail that first FNP roll you suffer 1 wound out of the 12, and the other 11 do not matter since you are removed immediately.
apples to oranges.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Yes, but not IMMEDIATELY!!!

RAW, there is nothing that tells you to stop rolling wounds after the model has been removed. There is nothing that states that you specifically do not roll any wounds once the model/unit is dead.

Usually, this doesn't actually make a difference, but this is one of those exceptions.

Page 24, under Remove casualties disagrees with you.

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty"

DeathReaper wrote:
Page 24, under Remove casualties disagrees with you.

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty"

I do not see the disagreement, at least in the rules.
as quoted the unit takes an unsaved wound for every model that fails, however you want to read it a unit CAN suffer more wounds than it contains models. There are times the excess is not counted, but those are exceptions with explicit wording stating as much.

kirsanth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Page 24, under Remove casualties disagrees with you.

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty"

I do not see the disagreement, at least in the rules.
as quoted the unit takes an unsaved wound for every model that fails, however you want to read it a unit CAN suffer more wounds than it contains models. There are times the excess is not counted, but those are exceptions with explicit wording stating as much.

Exactly! for every model that fails its save, you take an unsaved wound.

So if you have 3 models and you have to roll 6 saves, and you fail 6 saves, you take 3 unsaved wounds

You suufer 6,but lose 3 because that is all you have.You have still suffered 6.

Sorry, but you're really a lost case.

You realize you have to ignore everything written from the very sentence you quoted to the end of the chapter for that imaginary rule to be right? That's two full pages, including two examples and a picture, disagreeing with you!

This is the last nail to your argument's coffin:
"Once you determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of multi-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible."(BRB pg.26)

1. Determine number of unsaved wounds
2. Remove casualties

There is no way you can interpret this line as them not being two steps.

Just so all is clear, I know DR personally and play vs him regularly. He is great to play against and very tough to beat. DR's position is supported by poorly writin rules just as my position is supported by poorly writen rules. When stuff like this come up its pre or post game and has NEVER affected play or enjoyment.

Just because he has a (imo) incorrect view on this rule doesn't make him tfg. He's not.

Deathreaper,
Please read the example on page 25 and explain how the unit takes 2 unsaved wounds AND an unsavable wound when there are only 2 single wound models.

That would help make sense of your interpretation, I think.
As it stands it is sort of hard to follow if you read all the rules.

Editing to add:
The important part of that example is that the unsavable wound would make it impossible for the second unsaved wound ever occur, according to what I think you are stating.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yonush wrote:Just because he has a (imo) incorrect view on this rule doesn't make him tfg.

Cheers, this is a general truism that is needed for any debate.
Did someone state that he was?

As for the example, how many unsaved wounds were suffered by the marines with boltguns?

Two, because there were no more models in that wound group to suffer any more wounds, thus the "Extras" do not count, since they were not suffered. Three wounds were inflicted, but only two were suffered.

DeathReaper wrote:As for the example, how many unsaved wounds were suffered by the marines with boltguns?

Two. . .

Incorrect.
The example has one unsaved wound and then two more added unsaved wounds since there is not a limit on the wounds a unit can take in a phase.

The example in the rules disagrees with your statement.

Editing to add:
2 models are removed, and 2 wounds are counted for combat resolution.


Oddly, if a single wound is dealt, but it is ID on a model with multiple wounds that single wound counts for more than one for Combat Resolution...which seems to be ignored also by the interpretation you follow...unless I miss something.
Which does happen.

Editng to add:
Did you miss my edit on the intial post? It seems to be the case despite the timing.
According to you there is no way to have 2 unsaved wounds in a unit of 2 with an unsavable wound.
Yet it happens to be possible according to the rules.

I'm more surprised that people didn't argue about having to take the init test at their base I instead of I1 from the whips

omerakk wrote:I'm more surprised that people didn't argue about having to take the init test at their base I instead of I1 from the whips

LOL +1 here. Honestly though, has anyone played a Final Fantasy game? If you have, you are well aware of "Overkill." It makes sense: if you continue to bludgeon something long after it is dead, you have overkill. It's even in the dictionary: " to obliterate (a target) with more force than required." If you continue to beat the Tyrant after he is dead, blood will continue to spill. And nowhere does the fluff indicate that AB becomes normal blood as soon as the Tyrant dies.

How about when you attack a tank? You score 2 pens, and roll 2 ones. Just because they aren't cumulative doesn't mean that you didn't stun the tank twice. You don't ignore the other 1 - it still happened, but has no effect.

Yonush wrote:Just so all is clear, I know DR personally and play vs him regularly. He is great to play against and very tough to beat. DR's position is supported by poorly writin rules just as my position is supported by poorly writen rules. When stuff like this come up its pre or post game and has NEVER affected play or enjoyment.

Just because he has a (imo) incorrect view on this rule doesn't make him tfg. He's not.

I never implied he was, I'd actually play him any day. He is just very stubborn on this case, without really any rules to back him up - which is frustrating and annoying. Especially as he does this everytime acid blood, blood talon or anything else triggering from unsaved wound comes up, ever since I started reading this forum.

@kirsanth, I'm not too sure about the ID... I thought it warranted a different thread, so here it is.

Because, by our logic here, I would think that you've still suffered 1 unsaved wound, but it just causes your model to be removed due to losing all its Wounds.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/392261.page#3233967