Switch Theme:

Lash Whips and Acid Blood  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Lash Whip: Any model in base contact with a 'nid with lash whips has Init lowered to 1 (before modifiers) until the end of the assault phase.
Acid Blood: For every unsaved wound the model suffers in cc, the unit that dealt the blow must pass an Init test or suffer a wound.

So for the Initiative test would you use the majority or what? I've seen discussions about this on other sites stating, since some models are at Init 1, than the unit as a whole is at Init 1.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Use the majority.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

It's a great last-ditch effort vs 5-man thunderhammer terminator squads, since the majority will be in base to base with your lash-whippy, acid-bloody hive tyrant. They will probably kill him, but if they for example cause 12 unsaved wounds from their hammers, that's 12 I1 tests followed by their 3+ invulnerable. Sounds like the recipe for a double-KO.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in za
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Utapau

What's an initiative test? AFAIK neither the big book nor the small book mention it? Isn't it just a LD test?

~1200
DT:90-S+G++M---B--I+Pw40k10+D+A+/mWD372R+T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

page 8 on the BRB. roll a dice. Score equal to or lower than your initiative and you pass. a 6 always fails.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Characteristic tests. Both BRB and little BRB are exactly the same.
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





tetrisphreak wrote:It's a great last-ditch effort vs 5-man thunderhammer terminator squads, since the majority will be in base to base with your lash-whippy, acid-bloody hive tyrant. They will probably kill him, but if they for example cause 12 unsaved wounds from their hammers, that's 12 I1 tests followed by their 3+ invulnerable. Sounds like the recipe for a double-KO.


As far as the 12 I1 tests you mention, I wouldn't think that would be possible unless the model in question actually had 12 wounds right? Once you run out of wounds the rest of the ones caused are lost and wouldn't go toward the total for Acid blood.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tracer, then that works the saame as feel no pain and as such only ever need to roll 1 test then. It suffered the 12 wounds.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

12 unsaved wounds is the same whether or not you had 12 wounds to lose.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





I have a creeping suspicion that this has been discussed before but after 4? (how many wounds does a Tyrant have?) unsaved wounds the model is removed and the rest are lost I thought.

For instance, 12 wounds are cause, 4 are used to reduce the Wounds value to 0, the model is removed. There are still 8 wounds that have yet to be save/unsaved but since the model is gone they are lost.

   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

You roll all the saves togethher(or don't roll in case of power weapons).They all fail automatically(power weapon) and that is 12 wounds.the acid blood causes 12 tests.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





The problem I see is that rolling all the saves in one large group is merely a matter of speed and convenience since technically you take each save individually until the model is removed.

For example, what if your opponent only had 1 d6 that they played with and so could only ever roll 1 die at any one time. If they had a model that took 12 wounds, and they roll and fail four individual tests, then remove their model would you make them roll the die 8 more times to see if they failed all the others?

Another reason why I don't think the excess saved wounds would count is this. Say you multi assaulted a Hive Tyrant and a Carnifex with the hypothetical Assault Terminators. For whatever reason they decide to allocate all their attacks against the Hive Tyrant and utterly destroy him causing 12 wounds. Would you advocate that the Carnifex would then have to take 12 no retreat saves? (assuming it killed no terminators) I don't think you would because once the 4 wounds were caused, the model was removed and the rest were lost.

That's how I see it, you can't have unsaved wounds in excess of your wounds total because as soon as you suffer enough unsaved wounds to kill a model it is removed.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

Tracer Bullet wrote:The problem I see is that rolling all the saves in one large group is merely a matter of speed and convenience since technically you take each save individually until the model is removed.

For example, what if your opponent only had 1 d6 that they played with and so could only ever roll 1 die at any one time. If they had a model that took 12 wounds, and they roll and fail four individual tests, then remove their model would you make them roll the die 8 more times to see if they failed all the others?

Another reason why I don't think the excess saved wounds would count is this. Say you multi assaulted a Hive Tyrant and a Carnifex with the hypothetical Assault Terminators. For whatever reason they decide to allocate all their attacks against the Hive Tyrant and utterly destroy him causing 12 wounds. Would you advocate that the Carnifex would then have to take 12 no retreat saves? (assuming it killed no terminators) I don't think you would because once the 4 wounds were caused, the model was removed and the rest were lost.

That's how I see it, you can't have unsaved wounds in excess of your wounds total because as soon as you suffer enough unsaved wounds to kill a model it is removed.


Except that in your hypothetical situation, combat resolution rules specifically say you only modify leadership by the number of actual wounds lost. It's not an accurate comparison.

Saving throws at initiative steps in close combat are resolved simultaneously. That means wounds failed in excess of a models W characteristic are still failed wounds. Only the ones actually lost off of models (max 4 in this case) count towards combat resolution.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

So, as Tetrisphreak has confirmed,12 Int tests.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





Fair enough, it just seems odd that wounds in excess of what a model has could have an affect on the game, yay for GW writing skills. Anyways, I guess this is just one of those rules that you just have to go with it unless they add something to the FAQ.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Well if they are pounding its body,which is what they are doing,dead or not,Acid Blood is going to come out.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tracer Bullet wrote:Fair enough, it just seems odd that wounds in excess of what a model has could have an affect on the game, yay for GW writing skills. Anyways, I guess this is just one of those rules that you just have to go with it unless they add something to the FAQ.

This doesn't have anything to do with writing skills, it's spelled out very clearly. Suffering unsaved wounds is simply not the same as losing Wounds/removing casualties. Expect it to never be FAQed, as many other things work the exact same way.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

tetrisphreak wrote:
Tracer Bullet wrote:...Another reason why I don't think the excess saved wounds would count is this. Say you multi assaulted a Hive Tyrant and a Carnifex with the hypothetical Assault Terminators. For whatever reason they decide to allocate all their attacks against the Hive Tyrant and utterly destroy him causing 12 wounds. Would you advocate that the Carnifex would then have to take 12 no retreat saves? (assuming it killed no terminators) I don't think you would because once the 4 wounds were caused, the model was removed and the rest were lost.


Except that in your hypothetical situation, combat resolution rules specifically say you only modify leadership by the number of actual wounds lost. It's not an accurate comparison.

Saving throws at initiative steps in close combat are resolved simultaneously. That means wounds failed in excess of a models W characteristic are still failed wounds. Only the ones actually lost off of models (max 4 in this case) count towards combat resolution.


So lets say I assault with 5 assault terminators and a Furioso dreadnought with blood talons against a Hive Tyrant(4 wounds) and a Carnifex(4 wounds), and I am in B2B with only the carnifex with my Dreadnought.

I attack the Carnifex 4 times, score 4 hits, and 4 wounds (With no armor saves because of the blood talons) I then get 4 extra attacks according to the Blood Talon rules. So I attack again score 4 hits, and 4 wounds (With no armor saves because of the blood talons) I then get 4 extra attacks according to the Blood Talon rules. So I attack again and score 3 hits and 3 wounds, so I get 4 more attacks and I hit once and score one wound. So I take one more attack and miss. I have tallied 12 wounds on the carnifex, and my terminators all missed as did the Hive tyrant So You are saying that the Hive Tyrant, in this situation, needs to take 12 fearless saves?

If this is true my Furioso Dreadnoughts Just got a lot better.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




I think you should re-read what he wrote. Combat resolution ONLY, that is ONLY, takes into account wounds that were actually lost. So that carnifex that was wounded 12 times would only give up 4 wounds for combat resolution. If your side won by 4 then both needs to make 4 armor saves.

I'm pretty sure you didn't read his post at all before responding. That's bad manners.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

I read it, I was making a point.

The point is, if its only 4 wounds for combat res, it should only be 4 Init tests for Acid blood.

Acid Blood says "For every unsaved wound a model with acid blood suffers in close combat, the enemy that struck the blow must..."

If a Hive Tyrant with acid blood has 4 wounds, how many unsaved wounds can it suffer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/20 23:21:42


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




As many as are applied to it. If there are 9000000 Power Weapon hits on it, then it will have 9000000 unsaved wounds, so therefore you will have to take 9000000 Acid Blood tests to take.

2500
5000
12,500
4000
5000
2500
3500
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

No, it can suffer as many as it has, anything past what it has it can not suffer because it is already dead.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





DR, I don't play it the way they suggest, but they are more correct. As was stated, the combat resolution rules specifically mention how to deal with wounds in excess of a model's Wounds characteristic. Hypothetically, if the rules didn't address that, then the situation you described above would indeed be the way it worked.

However, if you want to use your Blood Talons example in a way that does poke holes in the ruling being presented, then:

Same set up as above, except the Carnifex has two wounds already, and the Dreadnought is in base contact with both Tyranids. The Dreadnought directs his attacks toward the Carnifex (three attacks) and causes 3 unsaved wounds. Two wounds kill the Carnifex, and the third is extra, so does the Dreadnought get 2 bonus attacks or 3?

According to Deadshot and others, he gets 3. According to you, he gets 2.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

So if the swarmlord assaults my Furioso dreadnought, and he has to assault through cover,
My dread strikes with 3 attacks, lets say I hit 3 times, then the Swarmlord makes 3 4+ invuln saves and passes
them all, how many more attacks do I get?

I play it as 0, but by the way people here seem to think I would get 3 more even though he made his saves.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Straw man.

We are talking about unsaved wounds, are we not? If the Swarmlord makes his saves, then there were no unsaved wounds.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Yea, A better example is:

I have 15 Blood Claws, they charge a Hive Tyrant that has Acid Blood and Feel no pain.

out of the 60 attacks on the assault, I hit and wound with 20 of them. the Tyrant fails all 20 saves.

The Tyrant Passes 16 FNP rolls and fails 4, the HT is now dead.

how many Acid Blood tests do the assaulting unit of Blood Claws have to make?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

4. Feel No Pain specifically says you ignore the failed wound. Ignore = never existed, doesn't count, don't use it, etc.


Are you just trying to forestall an argument? The rules here are very clear. Just because something only has 4 wounds before it is dead doesn't mean it can't fail more than 4 saves at once.

And in the furioso argument, if the carnifex had acid blood, attacking over and over again would be silly because then you'd have extra init tests to pass to avoid glancing hits from it. Now why on earth would you go and do a thing like that?

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The Rule for acid blood is this: "For every unsaved wound a model with acid blood suffers, the enemy unit..."

One can not suffer more wounds than one has.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

DeathReaper wrote:
One can not suffer more wounds than one has.
page please.
Outside of the exception already listed, obviously.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Page 39. Look at combat resolution, its the only insight to wounds taken in excess to a models wounds characteristic.

It makes reference to "Only the wounds actually suffered by enemy models"

so for acid blood "For every unsaved wound a model with acid blood suffers in close combat, the enemy that struck the blow must..." if you do not actually suffer wounds then they are not counted for combat resolution, I see no reason to allow them to count for anything else either.

Has the hive tyrant suffered 5 wounds? no it suffered 4 and was removed from play as a casuality.

How many unsaved wounds did the Hive Tyrant suffer?

well it was supposed to suffer five, but it actually suffered four. so four tests.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: