Are the Tau Imperialists?

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**Hashbeth**

Um you don't need an actual monarch for an empire. Any ruling oligarchy will allow it...that sounds like ethereals to me.

**Melissia**

Arturius wrote:Of course, there's also the "be human" requirement.

That's actually not necessarily true. Peaceful, useful alien races (such as the Jokaero) are allowed to exist and even protected by the Imperium.

**Harriticus**

Hashbeth wrote:Um you don't need an actual monarch for an empire. Any ruling oligarchy will allow it...that sounds like ethereals to me.

Empire:
–noun
1.
a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

**Hashbeth**

"or other powerful sovereign OR government"

Government can easily be a group

**KamikazeCanuck**

Yes, they are definatly imperialists. They are continually trying to expand in any way Possible. Sometimes that means non-military means and sometimes it does.
It's not a bad thing either. It's the only way to survive in 40k.

**Kroothawk**

Let's see:

Kroot:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Vespids:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Demiurg:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Is subjugation mentioned in the designer notes: Yes, they don't subjugate.
Is trade mentioned in the designer notes? Yes, not as unequal but mutual trade.

Here another official text:

BFG rules wrote:As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of
tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

Is domination and subjugation mentioned in this text? No.
Will all planets be forces to join the Tau? No, the text mentions armistices and treaties of neutrality.
Do tau force their culture on foreign races? Absolutely no evidence for this, this text mentions the "union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties".

Will this evidence stop people from posting "damn peace and genocide loving fish-cow caste-commie-nazis led by a pope" comments? No, as these comments are more an emotional response of hate by people not interested in political analysis.

BTW, if you want to understand what is behind this "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

**Iracundus**

See the main Tau Codex and it will clearly show the expansionistic and imperialist goals of the Tau as stated in the 3rd person narrator POV. They just let races have the option of taking the easy path of coming along quietly (which also serves the Tau as it means they don't have to waste resources fighting):

The Greater Good requires that all join together and acknowledge the guidance of the Ethereal caste, and this includes any and all races with whom the Tau come into contact. Perhaps unsurprisingly, few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions. Those worlds that will not willingly join the empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air Caste fleet.

p. 10, Tau Empire Codex

**Brother Coa**

The Tau Empire.

Really, this didn't told you enough?

**WarOne**

BFG rules wrote:Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities.

This in and of itself is a form of economic imperialism. Having to pay something to the Tau Empire suggests an unequal relationship in some form, even if they get out of it protection and trading rights, the fact is is that they have to give the Tau something in order to get something back and because there is an obligation there, they are not freely exchanging their services for other services.

Another way to look at it is do the races under the Tau umbrella act on their own without input from the Tau race? If there is any instance to which the Vespids, the Kroot, or the Demiurg have been given orders by the Tau Empire, that becomes a form of political imperialism, unless the effort between the two races is equal and both have equal say in the actions that they take. Any time the Tau race exerts its control over another race in any form does it then become imperialism.

**nomotog**

WarOne wrote:
BFG rules wrote:Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities.

This in and of itself is a form of economic imperialism. Having to pay something to the Tau Empire suggests an unequal relationship in some form, even if they get out of it protection and trading rights, the fact is is that they have to give the Tau something in order to get something back and because there is an obligation there, they are not freely exchanging their services for other services.

Another way to look at it is do the races under the Tau umbrella act on their own without input from the Tau race? If there is any instance to which the Vespids, the Kroot, or the Demiurg have been given orders by the Tau Empire, that becomes a form of political imperialism, unless the effort between the two races is equal and both have equal say in the actions that they take. Any time the Tau race exerts its control over another race in any form does it then become imperialism.

I think we will get different answers with different races. The kroot still act on there own and still work with sides other the the tau, but they also make sure the tau don't find out. I also can't think of any examples where the kroot or vespin have been given orders as a race.

Most relations seem to be partnerships. The tau help the kroot find new and cool people to eat and in return the kroot act as mercenary. Demiurg give the tau the ion cannon, and in return they get to ride along with tau warp drive.

**Kroothawk**

WarOne wrote: Having to pay something to the Tau Empire suggests an unequal relationship in some form, even if they get out of it protection and trading rights, the fact is is that they have to give the Tau something in order to get something back and because there is an obligation there, they are not freely exchanging their services for other services.

Is it too much to read at least the one sentence you quote, or better the whole quote? Oh, right, we are in a Tau thread!

Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return. (...)
Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities.

But the Tau being one of the technologically most advanced civilizations, yes, there are a lot of cultures with inferior technology in the Tau Empire, so trade and cultural exchange can be biased.

**BeefCakeSoup**

Harriticus wrote:
Hashbeth wrote:Um you don't need an actual monarch for an empire. Any ruling oligarchy will allow it...that sounds like ethereals to me.

Empire:
–noun
1.
a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

Ethereal Caste could fill in that role.

**1hadhq**

Kroothawk wrote:
Is it too much to read at least the one sentence you quote, or better the whole quote? Oh, right, we are in a Tau thread!

So being a "tau" thread excuses such attempts to paint fellow dakkanauts as DAU?
I don't believe so.
Maybe less nerdrage and a clear and unambigious hint from GW itself, ie calling the codex Tau EMPIRE,
not "union der sozialistischen tau republiken", is where the point is.

Empire > imperialists.

Kroothawk wrote:
But the Tau being one of the technologically most advanced civilizations, yes, there are a lot of cultures with inferior technology in the Tau Empire, so trade and cultural exchange can be biased.

1) trade is always based on the abilities of the traders, not tech.
2) cultural exchange does not happen. Tau do not add anything to their own culture, as for them its perfect as is.

Before you ask, codex tau EMPIRE says so. As a good kroot tracker you surely can find it yourself...

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
Arturius wrote:Of course, there's also the "be human" requirement.
That's actually not necessarily true. Peaceful, useful alien races (such as the Jokaero) are allowed to exist and even protected by the Imperium.

As you yourself have argued the Jokaero are only allowed becasue the are more like animals than a sentient race. You must be human to be a citizen of the Imperium of Man.

**iproxtaco**

They're a Sentient race alright. Whether or not they're Sapient is unconfirmed so far in the setting.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I don't want to get into semantics. We mean the same thing.

**iproxtaco**

Neither do I, but I see the terms misused a lot on this forum.

**Thatguyoverthere**

They have an empire, so yes.

Mirriam-Webster wrote:
Definition of IMPERIALISM
1
: imperial government, authority, or system
2
: the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence

**Jimsolo**

I'm gonna cautiously throw my two Lincolns in to the 'Tau are Imperialists' camp. Regardless of what the original designer notes were or say, the Tau as they exist now come off with a more creepy, Orwellian vibe than I think was originally intended in the notes referenced in the first post. I think that the Tau are just as expansive and oppressive as the Imperium of Man, just more friendly in their approach.

**Kroothawk**

1hadhq wrote:Empire > imperialists.

Tau Empire is a unprecise human classification as is Hammerhead and Devilfish.
Actually an Empire is necessarily led by an Emperor, the Tau Empire is not led by an Emperor or a single person, so not an Empire in its true sense.
T'au is a desert planet, where fish are rare. So classifying their tanks with fish names is a human classification based on similarity with terran fishes.
Same with human translations of Tau ranks: They originate in human creativity, not Tau language.

But I agree that with Mat Ward writing Codices and making Chaos Grey Knights canon, weird things may happen in the future.

**nomotog**

I think it's stated several times in the tau coex or anything about the tau, that they never acquire land or territory just to have it.

You think about it. Most of the times the tau acquires a imperial world, they are invited. The planet wants to split form the IoM and they ask the tau for help.

**Henners91**

'Tau EMPIRE'...

**nomotog**

Henners91 wrote:'Tau EMPIRE'...

Just watch next codex comes out and calls them the tau breakfast club. I bet you will look rather silly then.

Point being that they where originally just called the tau.

**Hashbeth**

1) "Subjugate, n.: To bring under dominion or control, esp. via conquest"

The Tau subjugate. It may be peaceful, but that does not change the fact. So that part of the Tau empire is verified. If GW says they don't then they don't understand the definition. The Tau subjugate, peacefully.

2) Taking planets: An empire doesn't have to take for no reason to be an empire. Rome only conquered in order to acquire land/resources/slaves. Eventually empires began conquering to spread the word of god and obtain resources.
By spreading their dogma, the Tau are taking planets for a specific reason, and by taking them for resources (which they do) they also act as an empire.

3) No mutual trade is entirely equal. It is safe to say that the Tau homeworlds probably have control over trade, as they can set up tariffs. Unless each world conquered has the direct ability to change the votes (i.e. overrights/veto the ethereals) there is inequality.
As well, as was mentioned earlier, there is no cultural exchange (as the greater good is always 'greater').

As such the Tau are, indeed, an empire run by an oligarchy of ethereals. They are a peaceful empire, but an empire nonetheless.

**Iur_tae_mont**

Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

**purplefood**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

They all act in the greater good. Except some people's good is greater than others of course...

**nomotog**

purplefood wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

They all act in the greater good. Except some people's good is greater than others of course...

Where dose it say that? I keep hearing people say that, but I can't figure out where they get it from.

**Iur_tae_mont**

nomotog wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

They all act in the greater good. Except some people's good is greater than others of course...

Where dose it say that? I keep hearing people say that, but I can't figure out where they get it from.

Me or Purple?

Purple's is a reference to Animal Farm (I think). Mine is from Aun'Va's Bio in the Tau Codex. From how they worded it, IMO, it seems that Aun'Va is the lead Ethereal, and therefore the Leader of the Tau Empire.

**purplefood**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
nomotog wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

They all act in the greater good. Except some people's good is greater than others of course...

Where dose it say that? I keep hearing people say that, but I can't figure out where they get it from.

Me or Purple?

Purple's is a reference to Animal Farm (I think). Mine is from Aun'Va's Bio in the Tau Codex. From how they worded it, IMO, it seems that Aun'Va is the lead Ethereal, and therefore the Leader of the Tau Empire.

I did? I haven't even read that book (It's on my to read list)

**KamikazeCanuck**

purplefood wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:
nomotog wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Technically the Tau Empire is ruled by one leader.

He's titles include "the worse HQ choice imaginable" and "Space Pope"

Aun'o'Tau'Acaya'Va'Denta - Aun'Va- is the highest ranking Ethereal.

They all act in the greater good. Except some people's good is greater than others of course...

Where dose it say that? I keep hearing people say that, but I can't figure out where they get it from.

Me or Purple?

Purple's is a reference to Animal Farm (I think). Mine is from Aun'Va's Bio in the Tau Codex. From how they worded it, IMO, it seems that Aun'Va is the lead Ethereal, and therefore the Leader of the Tau Empire.

I did? I haven't even read that book (It's on my to read list)

Sortof. First among equals. In a way GW has used code to show the Tau are in some ways psuedo-communists.