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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sortof. First among equals. In a way GW has used code to show the Tau are in some ways psuedo-communists.

What you call "a code to show us the Tau are pseudo-communists" is in fact a code from the Roman Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares . Calling the Roman Emperor a pseudo-communist is ... unconventional, but perfectly fits "sophisticated political debate" in Tau threads.

Kroothawk wrote:Will this evidence stop people from posting "damn peace and genocide loving fish-cow caste-commie-nazis led by a pope" comments? No, as these comments are more an emotional response of hate by people not interested in political analysis.

BTW, if you want to understand what is behind this "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

I'm guessing the fact that a group of Tau known as the Ethereals exert a leadership role over the other Tau does not consitute political imperialism (such as no one voted for them to take control of the entire political structure of the Tau castes, they solicit their own advice for how to expand the territory as a whole of the entire Tau species and seem to have all other castes beholden to them in the hierarchy of their race?).

I think first among equals was just meant to say that the tau don't subjugate there allies that they are all equals.

You could look at it like this is the aun's empire and the first race they subjugated was the tau. Basically everyone is a slave even the tau. It fits really well if you like to think the the aun are a outside force like the eldar or ctan. Gives a nice shift if you like that.

WarOne wrote:I'm guessing the fact that a group of Tau known as the Ethereals exert a leadership role over the other Tau does not consitute political imperialism

Well, that's a broad definition, including almost all political systems including all temporary states. Even in the USA a certain group exerts a leadership role over other Americans, that doesn't make Obama an Emperor

And if you read the entry on Aun-Va carefully, you will see that this "Emperor" is characterized as councellor of political leaders which is not the same as a political leader. Otherwise Alan Greenspan would be Emperor of the USA.

Also, let me break down what Kroothawk said here (I cannot believe I'm about to dogma a post ):

Kroot:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Kroot are honor-bound to the Tau for their service in defeating the Orks that threatened the Kroot race. This implies an obligation from the Kroot that speaks of a political imperialism that the Tau have brought the Kroot within their sphere of influence by virtue of saving the Tau race.

Vespids:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Vespids have a helmet on their leaders that helps communicate with them. Aside from the implied mind-control aspect by Imperial sources (i.e. GW's take on how the Imperium sees the relationship between the two species), there is nothing that implies other forms of imperialism.

Demiurg:
Subjugated and enslaved, ideology enforced? No.

Not enough information on what they are for me to assess them and what their relationship is with the Tau.

Is subjugation mentioned in the designer notes: Yes, they don't subjugate.
Is trade mentioned in the designer notes? Yes, not as unequal but mutual trade.

Imperialism can also be very subtle. Look at the spread of English across the globe. As an international language, it helps promote the spread of American cultural and lingustic imperialism. Same with goods made in China. While Americans may think they're dominant in many ways, the industrial capacity of China as a whole has spread to such a point that many goods come from China, strangling native industrial complexes and forming an industrial imperialism over nations that rely on China to manufacture their goods.

In Imperial space, do you think the nations that gain access to the Tau markets and trade spheres is positively affecting all their businesses? The trade cartels that used to have a monopoly (and thus economic imperialism) over their fellow humans now are stifled, being beaten technologically and probably economically by their Tau rivals whose material and trade partnerships are probably far more favorable. Pushing the Imperial trade cartels out of their traditional spheres of influence and the likely cessation of goods made in Imperial worlds that have to compete with the Tau (i.e. inferior technology farm equipment that the Tau make better), becomes a form of economic imperialism as the human worlds become reliant on the Tau techonolgy and less so on those they produce themselves.

Here another official text:
As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

The Tau offer races that cannot fend for themselves protection. Now while this is truly idealistic and moralistic of them, the fact is is that these races then become apart of the Tau sphere of influence. Once they become apart of the Empire, do they have equal say in what happens on an intergalactic scale to which the Tau domain extends? Do they all get equal say in how the Tau run their star-spanning demesne? Do the Tau allow these races to set policies that affect the entire empire? If no, then the Tau have poltical dominion over these races, which in turn is a subtle form of imperialism.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities.

This is where I have a big problem with the Tau as a non-Imperialist in any way society or government. Why would they say debt? That implies an imbalance that say the Tau are the advantageous party. In a non-imperialist partnership, the Tau should not expect anything from their partners. Goods and technology should be freely exchanged without expectation of any obligations fulfilled.

Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau.

The word obligation is used. Again, this implies an imbalance in the relationship between the Tau and the specie(s) in question.

There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

That was a very well done post. You not only showed that the tau where imperialist, but explained how. You also didn't make anything up. Nice job.

I notice how the Tau defenders keep ignoring the following quote from the Codex which clearly and unequivocally shows imperialistic Tau:

The Greater Good requires that all join together and acknowledge the guidance of the Ethereal caste, and this includes any and all races with whom the Tau come into contact. Perhaps unsurprisingly, few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions. Those worlds that will not willingly join the empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air Caste fleet.

p. 10, Tau Empire Codex

Citing Kroot or Vespids doesn't really matter because they are some of those "few races" that did submit quietly and peacefully.

nomotog wrote:That was a very well done post. You not only showed that the tau where imperialist, but explained how. You also didn't make anything up. Nice job.

What I am trying to do is show that while the Tau are non intentionally imperialist with their dogma and philosophy, the simple fact of the matter is is that in order to expand their empire, they need to practice some level of imperialism to show other races it is worth swearing loyalty to the Tau and believe in their goal set forth by the Greater Good.

That seems pretty definitive to me.

WarOne wrote:

nomotog wrote:That was a very well done post. You not only showed that the tau where imperialist, but explained how. You also didn't make anything up. Nice job.

What I am trying to do is show that while the Tau are non intentionally imperialist with their dogma and philosophy, the simple fact of the matter is is that in order to expand their empire, they need to practice some level of imperialism to show other races it is worth swearing loyalty to the Tau and believe in their goal set forth by the Greater Good.

You know it's kind of puzzling that you phrased this thread as a question when you already had the answer.

nomotog wrote:

WarOne wrote:

nomotog wrote:That was a very well done post. You not only showed that the tau where imperialist, but explained how. You also didn't make anything up. Nice job.

What I am trying to do is show that while the Tau are non intentionally imperialist with their dogma and philosophy, the simple fact of the matter is is that in order to expand their empire, they need to practice some level of imperialism to show other races it is worth swearing loyalty to the Tau and believe in their goal set forth by the Greater Good.

You know it's kind of puzzling that you phrased this thread as a question when you already had the answer.

I wanted to gauge what others see as their response to the question. Do people see the Tau as imperialistic? Do they see something else that I have failed to see?

Also, this subject was derailing a DCM thread about derailing Tau threads, so I created this thread to stop derailing the DCM thread about derailing Tau threads.

The tau derail guns strike again.

Well it seems most people agree with you. (other then kroothawk)

nomotog wrote:The tau derail guns strike again.

Well it seems most people agree with you. (other then kroothawk)

We love Kroothawk just the same.

Aww...isn't it huggably adorable?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:As you yourself have argued the Jokaero are only allowed becasue the are more like animals than a sentient race.

I don't remember that, considering I very distinctly remember arguing that non-dangerous alien races (which si a very small number) are allowed as protectorates.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You must be human to be a citizen of the Imperium of Man.

This part, however, is true-- protectorate doesn't equate to citizenship.

But it does mean that they don't just slaughter everything that isn't human. It's more fair to say that most things that aren't human think humans are either snacks to be eaten or victims to be used.

They do kill everything that isn't human as long as it's intelligent. As long as it's full blown genocide then the IoM is down with it.

You actually convinced me that the Inquistion are not massive hypocrites (on this issue) for using alien Jokearo because the are just animals. They don't go around scouring the galaxy of grox for example. These animals make rings that shoot tank destroying laserbeams but they are still just monkeys.

Kroothawk wrote:
But I agree that with Matt Ward writing Codices and making Chaos Grey Knights canon, weird things may happen in the future.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tau start worshiping Calgar as new Emperor...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You actually convinced me that the Inquistion are not massive hypocrites (on this issue) for using alien Jokearo because the are just animals. They don't go around scouring the galaxy of grox for example. These animals make rings that shoot tank destroying laserbeams but they are still just monkeys.

Then it wasn't me.

I have long believed that non-hostile aliens can be protectorates of the Imperium. Yes, including intelligent ones.

But this is 40k. Most aliens are hostile, intelligent or not, and the ones that aren't openly hostile are often hostile in some other way (such as trying to subvert human culture with chaos worship).

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You actually convinced me that the Inquistion are not massive hypocrites (on this issue) for using alien Jokearo because the are just animals. They don't go around scouring the galaxy of grox for example. These animals make rings that shoot tank destroying laserbeams but they are still just monkeys.

Then it wasn't me.

I have long believed that non-hostile aliens can be protectorates of the Imperium. Yes, including intelligent ones.

But this is 40k. Most aliens are hostile, intelligent or not, and the ones that aren't openly hostile are often hostile in some other way (such as trying to subvert human culture with chaos worship).

Yes, when you brought up protectorates I mentioned that Imperial protectorates aren't like our real ones. They're like quarantine zones or "we'll kill you later zones". Guess you are on board with The Inquistion being hypocrites then.

Or you're just intentionally misinterpreting what I've said.

The Inquisition deals with threats to the Imperium. If the Inquisition is dealing with an alien race, chances are that the race is either a threat to humanity (such as Orks) or a tool to be used to combat a different threat (the Jokaero for example).

That the Imperium has official diplomats trained in dealing with alien cultures says volumes about the fact that they do not simlpy go around killing all aliens.

That last part was a dig I'll admit. But seriously, can you name a non-monkey, Imperial protectorate of a sentient specis?

I'll have one better-- can you name a race that the Inquisition deals with that isn't a threat to the Imperium?

Warhammer 40k's lore focuses on war. It's no surprise that this focus means that there's not much lore on peacetime.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't do their daily genocides. They didn't cleanse the Tau and look what happened. They're causing quite a ruckus over there.
You claimed they are tolerant of aliens and are co-existing with them. I disagree.

Except that they ARE tolerant of alienx... as long as they don't pose a threat to the Imperium. Such as Jokaero.

I don't think you quite get it-- the Inquisition deals with THREATS to the Imperium. If the Inquisition is dealing with an alien race, said race is either a threat or a tool to deal with a threat. They don't casually lounge around having tea with Orks, when they could be either killing Orks or using Orks as mercenaries to kill a different threat. Or the Orks are trying to kill them.

Replace Orks with almos every single alien race in 40k. It's not a nice place. But there ARE exceptions. Jokaero aren't the only ones, either-- I'd have to look through my books to find it, but there's also a story of an alien race that was allied with by the Imperial Navy to fight off the Tyranids, and the Inquisition did not go and slaughter them. (No, it wasn't the Tau, this was IIRC the only reference made to the race)

Well that may very well be the Eldar. They allied with them in the Gothic War. Those are temporary alliances of convenience. What I'm saying is, by default, they're standing orders are to kill all aliens. The IoM is xenocidal.

That's because most aliens view humanity in the same way a jaguar views a sleeping deer. But it doesn't mean EVERY alien is exterminated because some are not a threat, are useful to the Imperium, or both.

They are though. Look at the Tau. They were slated for routine cleansing in their caveman days. Why? Because they were threat, even at that time. If you see aliens cooking with fire you should exterminate them because next thing you know they're shooting hypervelocity railgun rounds at you.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Because they were threat, even at that time.

And that turned out to be brilliant foresight. Given the natives' natural aggression towards one another at the time, is it really any surprise?

Imperium planned to wipe the Tau out not because they were seen as a future "threat" (the Imperiium still has a very arrogant view of Xenos despite all the trouble they have with them) but because T'au was marked for colonization and obviously the Adeptus Terra would never tolerate humans living alongside aliens.

Imperium has played that out over millennia, committing mass genocide then shipping in settlers.

Yep, good thing they got that standard operating procedure of killing all aliens.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yep, good thing they got that standard operating procedure of killing all aliens.

Ya it's not like that policy ever causes problems.