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Is it a friendly game? Play with bottlecaps if you want. Just make sure that it's either unique enough for me to be able to immediately tell the difference, or that your patience is such that you can deal with me asking you every turn what each individual stand-in is.

If it's a tournament, I draw the line at what the rules say.

I love converting and making fun models. Hell, its the whole reason I got into Ork! The prime example I have now is a Gray Knight Dreadknight that I looted up; it is on the MC base because I couldn't be bothered to spend the extra 1/2 hour forcing it to fit on a 60mm base for a true deff dread model. I have never had an opponent have a problem with it, quite the opposite in fact. But he has things that look like DCCW, big shootas are on there somewhere, and he even has a kill kannon for running as a megadread if I so choose.

The rest of my army is WYSIWYG, barring some minor swaps like stikkbombs or 'eavy armour. The 'eavy armour boyz are on my conversion to-do list, so eventually it will be all WYSIWYG.

Playing against TFG who has gray knights without heads or arms and after a combat starts saying 'oh wait! That was Draigo and he had the rusty sword of proctology! Re-do that because I forgot to use it!' is incredibly annoying. I refuse to play against that kind of guy.

Blanket proxies are fine (all my bolters are now steam powered squig dispensers) but if you can't remember what is in your own army, how am I supposed to keep up?

-cgmckenzie

Lazypete wrote:I was reading the post about ard boys and wysiwyg and it sparked this question.

I play 40K for about a year now and I never been a WYSIWYG because it makes me mad since I probably dont play as much people do.
I mean I like to change my list every game... so investing in having 12 melta in case I need 12 or 12 missile launcher cause I might need 12 someday is over budget for me.

So where do you guys draw the line.
Usualy I will do something like this.

Begining of game:

me: Ok this 10 men IG squad has 3 melta which are represented by 3 flamers (since IG dont have melta on sprue and I use regular guardsman as veteran since their no box of veteran)
friend: ok

and so on...

I usually use minis that are in spec. same heigth and same race, but I will often replace weapons since thats the part im having problem getting from GWS.

Also since I have 4 armies... and that my lists change... having models WYSIWYG would have cost me double and I wouldn't have 4 armies...

I quite rarely use like a space marine to represent a IG or something... 99% of the time if I play IG there all IG or I will use a rhino as a Chimera or vice versa
(often when someone ask me to lend them DT options lol )


So what do you think.. would you get mad at me if we played a friendly game in a local store?
( I dont like competition much so I dont do tournament, Im more of a friendly player than a WAAC guy )

As said, WYSIWYG is for competetive play. Seeing however that you have more than 15k points in various armies, I think you could spare the time and either magnetise your special weapons or make a couple spare guys. You painted 15,000 points in a year so not doing WYSIWYG for a couple meltas seems lazy to me.

As Alkasyn said, WYSIWYG is mainly for competitive play and you probably won't find an issue with proxying weapon in pickup matches. Tournaments usually don't have a huge issue with it as long as all the weapons your are proxying are the alternative weapon. So if you have 15 missile launcher guys, but all 15 are meltas and you don't have any actual melta guys then the model's decription is clear to your opponent. If you roll up with a devistator squad of all missile launchers and say "this one is a autocannon, this one is a storm bolter, this one is a melta" then expect for the TO to bonk you upside the head.

My line with WYSIWYG is saying "these orks are blood angels because I painted them red".

How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

PapaPiggy wrote: The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed.

To be fair, if you don't enjoy playing non-WYSIWYG armies, then denying that game is exactly what should happen. The game is supposed to be fun for both players... so if one of you isn't going to enjoy it, better to not play the game than for one player to just grin and bear it.


I could point out that there is a certain amount of 'instant gratification' rationale behind the argument for allowing non-WYSIWYG armies. Sure, some people can't afford to go out and buy whatever models they need to field whatever options they might want to use... in which case, until they can get more models, why can't they just use what they have? It's only a game, after all, right?

In competitive play, I am of the mindset that WYSIWYG should be strictly enforced. You are at a competition, these things matter. If you can't meet this requirement, you can't compete. Competition is a separate level of play, and there are good reasons for enforcing WYSIWYG. My big exception to this, and it's a big one, is if the tourney is a FLGS tourney and everyone there knows everyone, and the TO knows everyone, etc. Then you should have some house rules already established, or precedent, etc. But for a tournament with strangers that people travel to get to, WYSIWYG is important.

Now, even for that exception, and in casual games, it's important to mark units correctly. When we play proxy games at my FLGS (testing a new codex or build, say) we use scotch tape and colored paper to denote different things. Red is flamer, yellow melta, blue plasma, etc. This helps everyone involved, including yourself. Knowing what unit is what, for purposes of LoS, wound allocation, etc. is important to improving your game, and to making the game deeper and more tactical. Don't just do it for your opponent, do it for yourself.

When I was play testing GK , Nurgle Marines had Halberds, Korne had Hammers, Slaneesh had psycannons.

Seems a bit backwards.Slaanesh should have halberds,Khorne should have Flachions(being aggressive),Tzeentch should have guns and NFWS,and Nurgle should have hammers(slow).

WYSIWYG is simply a marketing ploy to sell new models. Back in the day it was never the case in 40K and fantasy clearly states that a model may look different but have certain items. Like a sword of +2 attacks may come in a spear or mace form, but the magic properties are the same. I am not sure when GW put this into 40K, I am guessing 3rd or 4th Edition since I did not play either of those. Back in 2nd edition all war gear had it's own stats and came on cards. You simply kept the cards with you and revealed them when you were using said gear so your opponent knew.

I think it is dumb, and we do not play by those rules at all in my gaming group. However, we do have a house rule that if you are substituting, say a plasma gun for melta guns, you must declare it when you deploy the unit. Since most of my marine kits came with plasma guns I usually use them as melta guns. Generally no one has a problem with this.

As for competitive play, well, tournaments probably run by the book, but check with the person running it first. I have a lot of converted models, where I took old 2nd edition models and use them in 5th edition. I have probably 20 Wolf Guard terminators that are on the smaller bases, and I never bothered to rebase them. Mainly because the are painted and modded already, and I don't feel like taking them apart and rebuilding them. If I decide to get competitive again (which I highly doubt that is what burned me out on war gaming and made me take a 15 year break from it) I may convert the bases.

As for me though, I play for fun. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to win games over lose them, but if I lose oh well, and I don't run cookie cutter tournament lists either. Every time you play me you usually get a surprise since I am always switching up tactics. One game I may roll out mechanized tactics with tanks and heavy armor, next game fast attack, so on and so forth. I find it more fun that way and if you really want to play by the book literally, you will probably have an aneurysm due to the gray areas and small loop holes that are literally in the rule books.

Plus you learn more from losing than you do winning. I know a lot of people that don't like certain things I run on my lists and after some tough spots with them I found use for them, and effective usage as well.

Except for my Broodlord,which fell apart,and I am now using a Genestealer on a 40mm base,I always modal my guys with the correct weapons,mostly because I modal with gaming in mind.

The idea that it is a ploy to sell more models is foolhardy- the entire company is a ploy to sell more models.

WYSIYG is important in both gameplay and modeling/painting. Without it, we will have identical marines fighting identical orks, no variety and the burden of knowing what is what falls onto our memory on what the opponent declared at the beginning of the match.

The occasional proxy is fine, but only for experimenting builds. To participate in this game, you are expected to follow the rules, WYSIWYG being one of them. Play the game and buy the correct models.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The idea that it is a ploy to sell more models is foolhardy- the entire company is a ploy to sell more models.

WYSIYG is important in both gameplay and modeling/painting. Without it, we will have identical marines fighting identical orks, no variety and the burden of knowing what is what falls onto our memory on what the opponent declared at the beginning of the match.

The occasional proxy is fine, but only for experimenting builds. To participate in this game, you are expected to follow the rules, WYSIWYG being one of them. Play the game and buy the correct models.

-cgmckenzie

I totally disagree. It may be important on some things like thunder hammer versus lightning claws, but an exact WYSIWYG representation is not all that important. As long as the model is identifiable and with in proper scale I could care less, and so could my gaming group. We also don't use all GW models either. I have several model trucks I have converted into Ork Trukks which are the same size and work in game and cost less and look cooler and more Orky in my opinion.

The only time WYSIWYG matters is when your opponent cries about it, or if you are playing a tournament, or in some cases you use it to exploit the game. The rules are meant to be a framework after all GW talks a lot about having fun first and foremost. If you are the type of player that is ultra anal about rule sets and loves to bend them to your way/advantage you wouldn't last long in my gaming group.

Just, like my opinion man

I do agree it makes the game easier but for example you cant really model a daemon weapon properly as takely they could be any kind of combat weapon for example my biker lord has a daemonic tenticle to respresent his daemon weapon as I wanted the look of that the weapon is part of him so that way it at least makes sense when the daemon rebels why he gets hit and because pretty much all of my chaos marines have bolt pistols and chain swords on show I could use em all as zerkers. another thing is I regulary use my rhino as a predator which I have a non glued on auto cannon which I put on top and thats simply because I cant build tanks properly to save my life plus I dont have the money to go buy everything. personally im fine with people using counts as just as long as I know what it is and what it does

PapaPiggy wrote:How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

The OP has more than 15k points in 4 armies. Do you really think it's because of money issues that he can't paint 4 more melta guys ?

It can be because of the parts you get in a kit.IE,the SM Devs box comes with with 2 LCs,2 HBs,2 PCs,and 1 ML,and 1 MM.What happens when a player wants 4 PCs?What do they do?Go out and but another set,which will give them 5 modals they will never use?I wouldn't.

Alkasyn wrote:

PapaPiggy wrote:How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

The OP has more than 15k points in 4 armies. Do you really think it's because of money issues that he can't paint 4 more melta guys ?

I probably have 20k in points overall maybe more in over 7 different armies from both 40K and WHFB, and tons of my models are out of print. Been playing since 1991, or about. I have done a lot to convert my old metal models, and back then you could not magnetize them, plus you really cannot do that to pewter anyway it is too heavy. I think it is just overkill to play pure WYSIWYG. Though I can see the stance on tournaments, because people may try to change up what something is during a game. Oh since you are in fact in cover this turn this flame thrower is actually a flame thrower instead of the plasma/melta gun I was claiming it to be before the game started.

I do think it is asinine of GW to not put in a full weapons option in boxed sets, and sells certain things on sprue separately. If you are going to allow players to build their own units and give them tons of bits, then give them all the bits they need to do so in those expensive boxed sets.

So you want 5 x 4 weapons in a heavy weapons set? So instead of 5 models you wont use you get 16 weapons?

I personnally like to see everything as it should be. So if I've got flamers then they're flamers, and this is how I roll with my army, if I haven't got a mini with aparticular weapon, then I don't have it in the list. This is how we usually play, although I wouldn't have too much of an issue with something being changed as long as it is declared first. I didn't always think like this, I used to take a hard line on it but then as some people pointed out in another similar thread, not everybody can afford to buy loads of minis to have all the various options, so considering this, I have a slightly more relaxed approach to it now.

Personally I draw the line with the appropriate model with the appropriate gun. I don't care if you have your bolt pistols or grenades modeled but I dislike having to track more than one or two minor adjustments.

Crom wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:

PapaPiggy wrote:How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

The OP has more than 15k points in 4 armies. Do you really think it's because of money issues that he can't paint 4 more melta guys ?

I probably have 20k in points overall maybe more in over 7 different armies from both 40K and WHFB, and tons of my models are out of print. Been playing since 1991, or about. I have done a lot to convert my old metal models, and back then you could not magnetize them, plus you really cannot do that to pewter anyway it is too heavy. I think it is just overkill to play pure WYSIWYG. Though I can see the stance on tournaments, because people may try to change up what something is during a game. Oh since you are in fact in cover this turn this flame thrower is actually a flame thrower instead of the plasma/melta gun I was claiming it to be before the game started.

I do think it is asinine of GW to not put in a full weapons option in boxed sets, and sells certain things on sprue separately. If you are going to allow players to build their own units and give them tons of bits, then give them all the bits they need to do so in those expensive boxed sets.

You have 20 k points amassed in 20 years.

The guy has 15k points gathered throughout the year. I see a difference between you two.

Alkasyn wrote:

Crom wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:

PapaPiggy wrote:How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

The OP has more than 15k points in 4 armies. Do you really think it's because of money issues that he can't paint 4 more melta guys ?

I probably have 20k in points overall maybe more in over 7 different armies from both 40K and WHFB, and tons of my models are out of print. Been playing since 1991, or about. I have done a lot to convert my old metal models, and back then you could not magnetize them, plus you really cannot do that to pewter anyway it is too heavy. I think it is just overkill to play pure WYSIWYG. Though I can see the stance on tournaments, because people may try to change up what something is during a game. Oh since you are in fact in cover this turn this flame thrower is actually a flame thrower instead of the plasma/melta gun I was claiming it to be before the game started.

I do think it is asinine of GW to not put in a full weapons option in boxed sets, and sells certain things on sprue separately. If you are going to allow players to build their own units and give them tons of bits, then give them all the bits they need to do so in those expensive boxed sets.

You have 20 k points amassed in 20 years.

The guy has 15k points gathered throughout the year. I see a difference between you two.

I probably got more than 20K I was just guessing...actually now I am curious All my models are from 2nd edition 40K and 4th Ed fantasy or newer.

7-8k Lizardmen
4k Ogre Kingdoms
5k Space Wolves
4k IG
3K Orks
3-4k Eldar
2k Tyranids (lots of invalid and missing models, complete 2nd edition army nothing added after 2nd ed)

so roughly 29-31k points of models.

This does not count my Necromunda Gangs, my Gorka Morka stuff (although a decent chunk of that is in my ork army), Warhammer Quest, Epic, Manowar, and all other non GW gaming miniatures. I also took a break for 15 years or so. Just got back into it about 8 months ago. dusted off my minis from the corner of my parents basement, took them back to my place, stripped them, reassembled them, purchased a new box set here and there for a few new models and bits, ordered bits off of ebay, and so forth. I easily dumped another $400 (probably more) on top of everything I own to somewhat modernize my armies. Hell, they didn't make a Logan Grimnar Model back when I played in 2nd and 3rd Editions. So of course he was one of the first models I bought in this last year. I barely played 3rd though, found the rule book for it, so at one point I must have been playing it. Just don't remember it really.

Here is my biggest issue with WYSIWYG rules:

1) boxed sets do not contain all possible options, therefore forced to buy multiple boxed sets, or sprues from third party like ebay (GW gets no sales revenue from this)
2) With applications like army building you can easily itemize all wargear on character models/units, simply showing your opponent what he has is generally OK with me
3) Some items are completely absent from boxed sets, ie melta guns.
4) in some cases the models don't even exist - Fenrisian Wolf Riders for example

Now, I agree that on certain things like lightning claws and thunder hammers need to be as is, and follow the WYSIWYG. However, I don't have enough missile launcher long fangs to field 3x units of 5 of them. I do however have probably 18 to 20 long fang models with a variety of missile launchers, multi meltas, plasma canons and las canons, but not 15 of each exact weapon. I am not going to purchase multiple boxed sets to be able to field everything. I will just declare them and mark them on the field as I deploy them with what they are equipped with.

Just my opinion.

Crom wrote: I am not going to purchase multiple boxed sets to be able to field everything. I will just declare them and mark them on the field as I deploy them with what they are equipped with.

...and not participate in events that require WYSIWYG.

Works for me.

nkelsch wrote:

Crom wrote: I am not going to purchase multiple boxed sets to be able to field everything. I will just declare them and mark them on the field as I deploy them with what they are equipped with.

...and not participate in events that require WYSIWYG.

Works for me.

I gave up on being competitive completely. It is what burned me out of war gaming and made me take a long break. I just got sick of the over cheese tournament power plays and now that WYSIWYG is required, it is just a ploy to get you to spend a ton of more money. My old models still work just fine, and for the most part my models are in fact WYSIWYG so I could easily field a legit tournament army if I wanted to, and fantasy doesn't have this rule so both fantasy armies of mine are legit.

If I did decide to get back into the tournament circuit I wouldn't be buying new boxed sets from GW, I would be buying sprue kits off of ebay and converting some of my extra models, because I have a ton of extra everything from over the years.

Crom wrote:WYSIWYG is simply a marketing ploy to sell new models.

That gets trotted out sooner or later in ever WYSIWYG discussion, and frankly, it's a silly idea. If it were actually the case, GW would have made it a hard and fast rule in the rulebook.

WYSIWYG is nothing to do with selling models. It's not something GW thought up to squeeze more money out of us. It's a convention intended to make the game easier to follow. Nothing more.

I am not sure when GW put this into 40K, I am guessing 3rd or 4th Edition since I did not play either of those.

Even back in 2nd edition it was fairly standard practice for wargear to be required to be represented on the models.

Back in 2nd edition all war gear had it's own stats and came on cards. You simply kept the cards with you and revealed them when you were using said gear so your opponent knew.

Since they were supposed to also be recorded on your army list, your opponent should have known about them before then...

insaniak wrote:

Crom wrote:WYSIWYG is simply a marketing ploy to sell new models.

That gets trotted out sooner or later in ever WYSIWYG discussion, and frankly, it's a silly idea. If it were actually the case, GW would have made it a hard and fast rule in the rulebook.

WYSIWYG is nothing to do with selling models. It's not something GW thought up to squeeze more money out of us. It's a convention intended to make the game easier to follow. Nothing more.

I am not sure when GW put this into 40K, I am guessing 3rd or 4th Edition since I did not play either of those.

Even back in 2nd edition it was fairly standard practice for wargear to be required to be represented on the models.

Back in 2nd edition all war gear had it's own stats and came on cards. You simply kept the cards with you and revealed them when you were using said gear so your opponent knew.

Since they were supposed to also be recorded on your army list, your opponent should have known about them before then...

In the older versions metal models came as is. You also used war gear cards, and every piece of war gear was on a card. Once someone got into base to base contact and you fought it out, you revealed your cards, or if you used an item like a displacement field. There was no good way to really mod the metal models, besides hacking them to bits and trying to re-piece them. I don't think green stuff was that common back then, and I don't recall using green stuff until the mid 90s.

If GW really wanted to simplify it, why not use the same rules in their other games? 40K is the only game that has strict WYSIWYG rules. Their player base expands at a very slow and sometimes non existent rate. A lot of people get into it and quit and never look back, and really the number of people that make it a life time hobby is very small. So compensate their lack of sales numbers they up their prices and try to make people buy more models, to make up for the lack of increased sales. This has been their business model for a long time

In WHFB, they don't really say this because rewriting the magic items to fit the description of the character models, and the fact that in Fantasy you are already buying a TON of models anyway, they clearly state the opposite. Fantasy has way more rule sand models involved as well. So, by that logic they would want to use WYSIWYG in all their gaming systems.

At this point we can just agree to disagree because after all this is just the difference of our opinions, but I am going to stand by my previous statement that WYSIWYG is mostly a marketing ploy, why else would they purposely leave certain items out of boxed sets and purposely sell them separately?

Crom wrote:In the older versions metal models came as is.

In the current versons metal models come as is. I'm not sure what your point is.

You also used war gear cards, and every piece of war gear was on a card.

Not quite. Basic wargear was in the Armoury in the relevant codex. It was only the more specialised items that were on cards.

Once someone got into base to base contact and you fought it out, you revealed your cards, or if you used an item like a displacement field.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that from, but it's certainly not the way Warhammer 40K has ever worked. The cards were simply a way of differentiating between readily available wargear and more 'special' items. They still had to be recorded on your army list. And they certainly weren't all to do with close combat.

I suspect you're confusing rules with some card game.

There was no good way to really mod the metal models, besides hacking them to bits and trying to re-piece them.

People have been successfully modifying metal models for as long as there have been metal models. Before green stuff was widely available, there were other putties on the market. And simple weapon swaps rarely require much in the way of putty work.

If GW really wanted to simplify it, why not use the same rules in their other games? 40K is the only game that has strict WYSIWYG rules.

That was exactly my point before, though: 40K doesn't have strict WYSIWYG rules. Outside of tournament play, WYSIWYG is a gaming convention, not a rule. It applies as a rule only to certain things, like character upgrades.

why else would they purposely leave certain items out of boxed sets and purposely sell them separately?

Like what?

Crom wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:

Crom wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:

PapaPiggy wrote:How can you get mad at some one for not having the money or the time to make every option they might want to run? A hive tyrant with any weapons being used as a swarm lord is fine to me, because after one game of running a crap swarm lord you'd want the hive tyrant back asap. The game was made to have fun nothing more nothing less, and when you refuse to play some one because they don't have the models needed you are denying some one else's fun that might not be so lucky as to have the money needed. I play full WYSIWYG because of tournaments, but it gets old modeling a bunch of things and finding out that the unit would have been better doing something else. Its all comes down to "To each their own"

The OP has more than 15k points in 4 armies. Do you really think it's because of money issues that he can't paint 4 more melta guys ?

I probably have 20k in points overall maybe more in over 7 different armies from both 40K and WHFB, and tons of my models are out of print. Been playing since 1991, or about. I have done a lot to convert my old metal models, and back then you could not magnetize them, plus you really cannot do that to pewter anyway it is too heavy. I think it is just overkill to play pure WYSIWYG. Though I can see the stance on tournaments, because people may try to change up what something is during a game. Oh since you are in fact in cover this turn this flame thrower is actually a flame thrower instead of the plasma/melta gun I was claiming it to be before the game started.

I do think it is asinine of GW to not put in a full weapons option in boxed sets, and sells certain things on sprue separately. If you are going to allow players to build their own units and give them tons of bits, then give them all the bits they need to do so in those expensive boxed sets.

You have 20 k points amassed in 20 years.

The guy has 15k points gathered throughout the year. I see a difference between you two.

I probably got more than 20K I was just guessing...actually now I am curious All my models are from 2nd edition 40K and 4th Ed fantasy or newer.

7-8k Lizardmen
4k Ogre Kingdoms
5k Space Wolves
4k IG
3K Orks
3-4k Eldar
2k Tyranids (lots of invalid and missing models, complete 2nd edition army nothing added after 2nd ed)

so roughly 29-31k points of models.

This does not count my Necromunda Gangs, my Gorka Morka stuff (although a decent chunk of that is in my ork army), Warhammer Quest, Epic, Manowar, and all other non GW gaming miniatures. I also took a break for 15 years or so. Just got back into it about 8 months ago. dusted off my minis from the corner of my parents basement, took them back to my place, stripped them, reassembled them, purchased a new box set here and there for a few new models and bits, ordered bits off of ebay, and so forth. I easily dumped another $400 (probably more) on top of everything I own to somewhat modernize my armies. Hell, they didn't make a Logan Grimnar Model back when I played in 2nd and 3rd Editions. So of course he was one of the first models I bought in this last year. I barely played 3rd though, found the rule book for it, so at one point I must have been playing it. Just don't remember it really.

Here is my biggest issue with WYSIWYG rules:

1) boxed sets do not contain all possible options, therefore forced to buy multiple boxed sets, or sprues from third party like ebay (GW gets no sales revenue from this)
2) With applications like army building you can easily itemize all wargear on character models/units, simply showing your opponent what he has is generally OK with me
3) Some items are completely absent from boxed sets, ie melta guns.
4) in some cases the models don't even exist - Fenrisian Wolf Riders for example

Now, I agree that on certain things like lightning claws and thunder hammers need to be as is, and follow the WYSIWYG. However, I don't have enough missile launcher long fangs to field 3x units of 5 of them. I do however have probably 18 to 20 long fang models with a variety of missile launchers, multi meltas, plasma canons and las canons, but not 15 of each exact weapon. I am not going to purchase multiple boxed sets to be able to field everything. I will just declare them and mark them on the field as I deploy them with what they are equipped with.

Just my opinion.

For the 2nd time you're missing my point here. let me try the frontal approach.

I think that if a guy amassed 15k points in a year (that means a lot of painting, if we assume he has an infantry army and each of the models in that army is worth 12 points that would mean he painted 3,5 infantry models a day, every day of the year, with no pause) which means he spent tons of money and time on the hobby, he could spent a tad more and get them all WYSIWYG.

The OP complains about lack of money because he cant afford WYSIWYG of 4 armies. I say, collect less armies.

I can't, for the love of God, imagine why it would be a problem for a guy who owns the equivalent of 60 Tactical Squads in Points alone to paint 5 Missile Launchers.

All these folk bitching about not having all the options need to ask themselves why are they proxying I bet its because they want to be competive and thats cool with me. But guess what models cost money if you want the joys of 15 longfangs go fething buy em.

Its my model collection that keeps me grounded when making list and stops me making anything too filthy a good example is that I only own 30 loota models (my fav unit) let me proxy and your gunna face 45-135 strengh 7 shots a turn for a mere 225 points per sqaud.

I also dislike the these flamers are meltaguns style proxying just because its so cheap and easy to fix the problem a blister of meltaguns is not going to force you into to poverty to purchase.

People are just cheap tabletop gaming is as mych about the look and fell of the game as it is about tactics and winning.

Jubear wrote:All these folk bitching about not having all the options need to ask themselves why are they proxying I bet its because they want to be competive and thats cool with me. But guess what models cost money if you want the joys of 15 longfangs go fething buy em.

Its my model collection that keeps me grounded when making list and stops me making anything too filthy a good example is that I only own 30 loota models (my fav unit) let me proxy and your gunna face 45-135 strengh 7 shots a turn for a mere 225 points per sqaud.

I also dislike the these flamers are meltaguns style proxying just because its so cheap and easy to fix the problem a blister of meltaguns is not going to force you into to poverty to purchase.

People are just cheap tabletop gaming is as mych about the look and fell of the game as it is about tactics and winning.

I honestly find that this sums up my position quite accurately, I only field units that I have models for and I find it quite rude if you were to turn up to a game and decide to proxy something without clearing it with me before hand, the only exception to this is if you clear it with me before hand and you are only doing it to tst out a unit that you do not have.