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I was reading the post about ard boys and wysiwyg and it sparked this question.

I play 40K for about a year now and I never been a WYSIWYG because it makes me mad since I probably dont play as much people do.
I mean I like to change my list every game... so investing in having 12 melta in case I need 12 or 12 missile launcher cause I might need 12 someday is over budget for me.

So where do you guys draw the line.
Usualy I will do something like this.

Begining of game:

me: Ok this 10 men IG squad has 3 melta which are represented by 3 flamers (since IG dont have melta on sprue and I use regular guardsman as veteran since their no box of veteran)
friend: ok

and so on...

I usually use minis that are in spec. same heigth and same race, but I will often replace weapons since thats the part im having problem getting from GWS.

Also since I have 4 armies... and that my lists change... having models WYSIWYG would have cost me double and I wouldn't have 4 armies...

I quite rarely use like a space marine to represent a IG or something... 99% of the time if I play IG there all IG or I will use a rhino as a Chimera or vice versa
(often when someone ask me to lend them DT options lol )


So what do you think.. would you get mad at me if we played a friendly game in a local store?
( I dont like competition much so I dont do tournament, Im more of a friendly player than a WAAC guy )

Personally, I have no problem with it at all.

The main thing is probably just to be consistent. If your IG squad has 3 melta represented by flamers then it's probably a good idea that all of the flamers on the board are actually melta...

As a side note, I tend to magnetize everything. Makes it easy to pull off a weapon for a weapon destroyed result or even on marines to swap out bolt guns with plasma. It's not that bad to just buy bits from various sites to do this.

WYSIWYG is for competitive play. For friendly play, I don't care what you're running as what, so long as it's clear to both you and me what you've got.

My models have exactly what they have.

And I don't have piles of spare guys with different options either - I aim for good all-round choices and stick with them.

My opponents that I regularly play with, and myself use WYSIWYG sparingly.

I will sometimes use 2 Ultramarines with bolters as my "Meltagun Blood angel assault marines" Because sometimes I run 2 honor guard with 2 or 3 melta guns.

The tyranid player uses Bases for his Hive guard all the time.

We have an "It does not matter as long as you tell us before hand what everything is" we will forget so sometimes a mid-game refresher is needed, but that info is of course freely given.

So, We have no problem with it, as long as you keep us informed before the game starts and mid-game as to what is where when we ask.

clively wrote:Personally, I have no problem with it at all.

The main thing is probably just to be consistent. If your IG squad has 3 melta represented by flamers then it's probably a good idea that all of the flamers on the board are actually melta...

As a side note, I tend to magnetize everything. Makes it easy to pull off a weapon for a weapon destroyed result or even on marines to swap out bolt guns with plasma. It's not that bad to just buy bits from various sites to do this.

This.

Jimsolo wrote:WYSIWYG is for competitive play. For friendly play, I don't care what you're running as what, so long as it's clear to both you and me what you've got.

I actually find WYSIWYG just as important for friendly play, simply because in a friendly game I want to be able to relax and just enjoy the game. A non-WYSIWYG army gives me extra details that I have to try to remember.

I would not play you.

If using non-wysiwyg models were the exception, because you want to try something before shelling out the cash to buy the models, and if you asked in advance whether it was fine with me - okay. But if you do it regularly, like every other game, I would just refuse to play you at some point.

Scott-S6 wrote:My models have exactly what they have.

And I don't have piles of spare guys with different options either - I aim for good all-round choices and stick with them.

That is what I do, too.

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:WYSIWYG is for competitive play. For friendly play, I don't care what you're running as what, so long as it's clear to both you and me what you've got.

I actually find WYSIWYG just as important for friendly play, simply because in a friendly game I want to be able to relax and just enjoy the game. A non-WYSIWYG army gives me extra details that I have to try to remember.

That, too.

Also, it is a matter of aesthetics to me. I like miniature wargaming because I like how the tabletop battle scenes look and create images of dramatic battles. Now if I have to constantly censor what I see in my mind - "Wow, that guy with the flamer looks awesome as he charges those orks!" - "Wait, that is a meltagun today." - that is just simply an annoyance for my imagination, and thus a lot less fun.

I can't stand this, sometimes its Ok went trying certain things out with incredibly obscure choices in a game at home, but if you show up at a friendly gamestore and you preface your game with "Well, these are actually these, and this is that" I know its going to be a terrible game. The last thing I want to think about while playing is what something actually counts as, rather than what they visually are, especially when those choices are available for purchase.

Also in my experience, the "thiis is that" people just tailored their list to fight your army, and are "counts as" something more beneficial against a certain army. I literally overheard someone say "All the meltas are flamers" against a tyranid player the other day. COMEON

Empty bases as models is unreasonable for me and I would not play against that.

And ditto for the tailoring and the last second proxies. I find often all these accommodations actually make 'friendly' play less friendly as the player is only interested in winning and less interested in a fair game. List tailoring before a game is generally bad which means the game will be a waste of time. Proxies lend itself to list tailoring.

I'm pretty into WYSIWYG. All of my models are WYSIWYG and I put forth the effort to have the army that I'm actually running. I'd appreciate my opponents at least making reasonable attempts at converting the models that they want to use. If you don't have the time to convert 3 flamers to 3 meltaguns, maybe it's time to take a night off from gaming and do a little bit of modeling work. It's as easy as clipping off the barrels and adding a plasticard cylinder.

You can order 5-packs of Meltaguns or Plasmaguns for $8-8.25 from GW or buy them at your FLGS. They're metal so your guardsmen may be bit front-heavy, but you can counter this with some lead shot or washers in the base. It's really not prohibitively expensive to do this properly.

If you really wanted to, you could make your own "Melter Guns" out of Green Stuff and Plasticard then resin cast the hell out of them. This is perfectly acceptable.

I don't really care that much as long as I can look at the board and tell what is what then I'm fine. One of the guys I played against used all heavy weapons as lascannons. I had no problem telling them apart, now when he tried to use a base as a dread I originally said ok and later regretted my choice as it was constanly being hidden behind a rhino or something. So in short as long as there is actually a model then that is fine with me. Now granted I won't be happy if you last second tailor your list to beat mine and then proxy that. Having multiple armies myself I have constantly had this problem with my marines, but I can definently tell why IG have such a problem. You can buy 1 melta and 1 plasma for like $15 for the pair, and if your not playing Cadians tough, or you can shell out for the Company Command Squad box and get 1 special weapon each. IG have the hardest problem like this with the special weapons.

WYSIWYG can be slippery as there are indeed many codex options that have no factual models.

I agree that the more non-WYSIWYG the more confusing and less friendly the game will be; but am not completely apposed to "count as".

Examples of "count as" that would annoy me are vehicles made from other models which end up being smaller than what would be the legal model. Mostly because I am an IG player with lots of Ordnance so it makes it harder for me to hit you . It also creates disadvantage to those assaulting the vehicle as well. But when models are based this no longer is the issue.

Weapons/options that have designated models for said codex weapon/options should be used by said models. Otherwise it would come down to consistency. Such as using FW melta's instead of GW melta's. Though that would be more expensive to the wallet. There are other companies that make weapons that appear similar to Melta's, Flamers, etc etc and if your entire army used those to reduce costs I'd be fine with that.

nkelsch wrote:Empty bases as models is unreasonable for me and I would not play against that.

Agreed, any empty base proxy would just count as always in LoS and never granted cover.

Tourney play yes. Of course. OP are you saying you bring proxies and "counts as" to tournies? I will play test with whatever, but if its a tourney its 100% WYSIWYG.

I don't model the Hardwired systems on my crisis suits, but other than that it's all WYSIWYG.

Hardwired systems are supposed to be a chip in the guy's head. So that is not a wysiwyg matter at all.

The same goes for any equipment troops have to have, like grenades - it does, imo, look cooler if they have them, but it is not a big matter to me if they do not.

But a flamer that is actually a melta or bullgak like empty bases does not work for me. Nuggz got it right there: if you want a flexible army, convert one. Magnets can be your friend if you want to swap out special or heavy weapons, as can one or two additional models, which will not ruin you if you managed to buy an army.

I play WYSIWYG except for grenades.

If a model in my list has a grenade launcher, the figure has one.

If it is a meltagun, it has one.

Power weapon or fist - yep, they have that weapon.

I have an adequate collection to do this after 23-24 years playing. It also means if I don't have it, then I don't play it.

Skylifter wrote:I would not play you.
If using non-wysiwyg models were the exception, because you want to try something before shelling out the cash to buy the models, and if you asked in advance whether it was fine with me - okay. But if you do it regularly, like every other game, I would just refuse to play you at some point.

Scott-S6 wrote:My models have exactly what they have.
And I don't have piles of spare guys with different options either - I aim for good all-round choices and stick with them.

That is what I do, too.

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:WYSIWYG is for competitive play. For friendly play, I don't care what you're running as what, so long as it's clear to both you and me what you've got.

I actually find WYSIWYG just as important for friendly play, simply because in a friendly game I want to be able to relax and just enjoy the game. A non-WYSIWYG army gives me extra details that I have to try to remember.

That, too.
Also, it is a matter of aesthetics to me. I like miniature wargaming because I like how the tabletop battle scenes look and create images of dramatic battles. Now if I have to constantly censor what I see in my mind - "Wow, that guy with the flamer looks awesome as he charges those orks!" - "Wait, that is a meltagun today." - that is just simply an annoyance for my imagination, and thus a lot less fun.

nkelsch wrote:Empty bases as models is unreasonable for me and I would not play against that.
And ditto for the tailoring and the last second proxies. I find often all these accommodations actually make 'friendly' play less friendly as the player is only interested in winning and less interested in a fair game. List tailoring before a game is generally bad which means the game will be a waste of time. Proxies lend itself to list tailoring.

The above posts sounds kinda smug about wysiwyg but after playing for 4 years now, I'm starting to agree.
I think proxy is great for testing out units. Don't buy a land raider if you're just going to use it once and hate it. But please do buy the land raider if you intend to use it every game.
Also, people who field wysiwyg armies usually field less WAAC armies. This is probably due to them not wanting to buy a ton of whatever flavor of the month unit comes up.
I found that most people who proxy ALL the time do it either because they're in a budget tight scenario and/or they just don't want to invest more money into the hobby OR (more likely) they try out new super optimized internet lists every week.

You know, i would play any body, it doesn't matter if you tell me what models have before the game. I don't remember your list because i can't remember mine. If you guys want to be hard asses because of a guy that doesn't want to shell out the money and refuse to play him, then I have one question for you. How many of you guys model all your marines with a bolter and bolt pistol and frag and krak G's? In tournaments its a good idea to check before hand, but friendly play there shouldn't be any difference, use the models you have and have fun playing the game. If people think that they are going to get cheated because the weapons will change during the game because of poxies, you are calling people at your FLGS lairs and cheats. And thats just not right. Just play the game and cheat by bringing up rules that make no since and twist them to fit what you need. Also try screwing around with true line of sight and screw people out of cover saves. Leave people who like to play and are honest alone, We all can't sit around all day modeling and buying little plastic men. Some of us just want to play and have no issues with a marine holding a flamer and shooting a melta gun.

'PapaPiggy'... I think you're possibly blown things up a little out of proportion.

Most people won't refuse to play anyone just because their army isn't completely WYSIWYG. It is an ideal for a lot of players, though. Not just because non-WYSIWYG makes it easier to cheat (because I think that's a fairly minor issue, really), but simply because WYSIWYG makes the game easier to play.

Ive decided to change my mind on WYSIWYG sure Ive gone to the expense and time to make my army legal. But if my oponents wants to proxy a ton of special weapons etc because he is too cheap to buy a pack of melta guns then thats fine.

I will on the spot rewrite my list using proxies and I will bring utter filth to the table and I will take you off it in 2 turns.

Magnets. It's all about the small, tiny, neodymium magnets.

I don't really care about default wargear that can't be replaced, likes bolt pistols on tacticals.

I've been playing for 4 months and have full WYSIWYG on 4k points of Grey Knights. I don't feel it's a particularly high standard to get WYSIWYG on all options if you play the unit regularly. As noted, magnets are made of win. I think proxying is fine if you're just looking to get how the unit performs, but it gets tiring to see the same marines from the Black Primer chapter with the same 'these flamers are meltaguns and these other flamers are missile launchers' for months. It's just an added inconvenience to constantly try to remember which ones are which. I mean, you've evidently decided you like the unit months ago, and still?

Jubear wrote:Ive decided to change my mind on WYSIWYG sure Ive gone to the expense and time to make my army legal. But if my oponents wants to proxy a ton of special weapons etc because he is too cheap to buy a pack of melta guns then thats fine.

This. Though I wouldn't rewrite my list to bring all the filth. I would only do that if my opponent brought no army list, and had models equiped with flamers, then seeing my SM decided they would all be plasma guns, then I would be pissed.

I always play WYSIWYG, apart for small things like meltabombs, and sometimes my power sword is just a CC weapon

terranarc wrote:

Skylifter wrote:I would not play you...

nkelsch wrote:Empty bases as models is unreasonable for me and I would not play against that.
And ditto for the tailoring and the last second proxies. I find often all these accommodations actually make 'friendly' play less friendly as the player is only interested in winning and less interested in a fair game. List tailoring before a game is generally bad which means the game will be a waste of time. Proxies lend itself to list tailoring.

The above posts sounds kinda smug about wysiwyg but after playing for 4 years now, I'm starting to agree.
I think proxy is great for testing out units. Don't buy a land raider if you're just going to use it once and hate it. But please do buy the land raider if you intend to use it every game.
Also, people who field wysiwyg armies usually field less WAAC armies. This is probably due to them not wanting to buy a ton of whatever flavor of the month unit comes up.
I found that most people who proxy ALL the time do it either because they're in a budget tight scenario and/or they just don't want to invest more money into the hobby OR (more likely) they try out new super optimized internet lists every week.

I admit, it is kind of arrogant. But I do this for my enjoyment, and I find it annoying to play against non-wysiwyg. So I choose not to. That does not mean I think people who use non-wysiwyg are jerks or idiots or inferior in any way, I just do choose not to spend my hobby time with something I do not enjoy to the fullest. If they enjoy it that way, I am not going to stop them.

PapaPiggy wrote:You know, i would play any body, it doesn't matter if you tell me what models have before the game. I don't remember your list because i can't remember mine. If you guys want to be hard asses because of a guy that doesn't want to shell out the money and refuse to play him, then I have one question for you. How many of you guys model all your marines with a bolter and bolt pistol and frag and krak G's? In tournaments its a good idea to check before hand, but friendly play there shouldn't be any difference, use the models you have and have fun playing the game. If people think that they are going to get cheated because the weapons will change during the game because of poxies, you are calling people at your FLGS lairs and cheats. And thats just not right. Just play the game and cheat by bringing up rules that make no since and twist them to fit what you need. Also try screwing around with true line of sight and screw people out of cover saves. Leave people who like to play and are honest alone, We all can't sit around all day modeling and buying little plastic men. Some of us just want to play and have no issues with a marine holding a flamer and shooting a melta gun.

As I said above, my refusal to play that way does not include any hard feelings towards people who do.

But as your post allows me to state one of my reasons more clearly, I shall do that: I want to see exactly what there is in play because it allows me to enjoy seeing the scenic representation on the tabletop of the dramatic conflict we are enacting in our minds as accurately represented as possible. Imagine an action movie where the actors use wooden guns and lots of ketchup, but in the starting credits it says "wooden guns and ketchup are supposed to be real guns and blood, please remember that during the movie."

So basically what I am saying is that a game for me is a way of telling a story, and non-wysiwyg destroys the suspension of disbelief, because everytime I have to check my list to see what that model with the flamer is actually equipped with, it feels like halting a movie to look up what the blue wooden stick in the hero's hand is supposed to represent. Which is why I will not waste my time with a game against a non-wysiwyg army.

There is a limit.I let people away with counting this bolter as a Boltpistol and the chainsword as a Power sword.But,A Hive Tyrant with Deathspitters and Heavy Venom Cannon,as the Swarmlord?I don't think so!

@Skylifter

I am totally your opinion.

For me it is important, that the model looks the same as it works. (same base, same size, according weaponry, same style)
If someone uses a dragon instead of a winged Hive Tyrant I will love it.

I will not like a game vs an army, that is built with some random models. The epicness of the battle just decreases too much:

1. the opponent will have a hard time getting your models right, maybe even you will.
2. It just doesn't look nice
3. It is too random for me
4. It feels a bit disrespectful to the opponent who tries to have a good looking army.

I would break down the perfect 40k-game into those aspects:

1. I play a cool opponent (most important)
2. The table and the armies look awesome
3. It is a tactical challenge
4. It has a unique style
(5. it has a storyline around it)

Non WYSIWYG-armies instant kill most of those points. Actually 3 of them, the bracketed one does not apply very often. So only point 1 will survive.
So the guy must be really cool...

If it is a test game, well then we wont have 40k-atmosphere, but practical theory. This may be necessary sometimes, so I am ok with it. But you dont test the whole 40k-career.

A certain amount of proxying is expected from my point of view, as it really is quite expensive to buy every option of every unit of every army I play, and I don't hold others to a higher standard than I hold myself.

I do, however, make the best attempt I can to make everything wysiwyg, and limit myself to no more than 2-3 squads of proxy'd models (aka, these weapons represent this, etc.)

I do use, for example, hand flamers to represent regular flamers in a chapter that does not have access to the pistol version, but I think that's a close enough resemblance to basically count as wysiwyg anyways.

I change my lists constantly, so I don't build or paint with a very specific list in mind, but once I settle on one I do hold myself to the standard. I suppose this is the exception to my understanding. If I see you run the same list for a month with the same unit and the same counts as, I'm going to chide you for it.

Ignus wrote:A certain amount of proxying is expected from my point of view, as it really is quite expensive to buy every option of every unit of every army I play,...

But you do not have to buy every option to play a game. If you want more list flexibility, then yes, you have to buy more models (or magnets!) in order to be wysiwyg, but you do not have to have list flexibility. That is your choice. My choice is wysiwyg before list flexibility.

I only have an issue if someone is proxying using models that are in his list. ie.. This guy with a flamer actually has a Melta but this guy is really carrying a flamer. Happened to me once when someone was using HBs as Lascannons and had HBs in his list as well. Sure enough on turn one the unit that I thought had a HB turned out to be one with a Lascannon and oddly enough had LOS to a vehicle that got popped. The one that should have been the Lascannon would not have had LOS.