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I just find it awkward. The horrible "I'm going to be friendly to sell you something" conversation.

I just want them to go away so I can browse stuff in peace and at my own pace. I don't mind having hobby related conversations especially if the store is quiet, but not when they are so false, it's a professional interest in the customer to encourage them to buy, it's not a social/hobby conversation. Good conversations do happen, and I find it happens far more at wargames events with stall holders, it's a relaxed conversation and ironically I do end up spending more.

Typically at GW it feels tense and false. I find my rare visits uncomfortable far more often than not. I've had a few decent conversations with staff who genuinely enjoy the hobby and talk in a relaxed manner, but the corporate nature of the shops usually restricts chat to recent GW products and you get a few fanboys, or feel they have appear that way to keep a job, that just make any 'chat' awkward and stilted with a few silences. I don't want to be rude and shoo them away, but it's usually awkward until they go off down the other end of the shop and leave me be.

GW are probably the most uncomfortable shops I've been in. I refuse to believe it's any problem with being social on my part. But that's why I don't go in often, that and the prices.

To reiterate earlier posts, GW stores (at least here in the UK), seem to be an experience unlike any other. Yes, it's a retail store and yes, staff are trained to upsell, but the point is, it very rarely happens in any other high street store you care to think of. I can walk into Game or HMV or a clothes shop or whatever you care to name and the most interaction I would get from a staff member is a casual 'can I help you' type question. With GW, its a whole other level of scrutiny and probing that to be honest, I find uncomfortable and unnecessary; it's one of the reasons I don't shop at GW stores.

Off the top of my head, the only other equivalent of pushy sales techniques that even come close to equating the GW experience are PC World or Currys, where the staff are trained to spot browsers and pitch to them.

Edit: And as I post that, Howard sums it up in a much more succinct manner above me!

filbert wrote:Off the top of my head, the only other equivalent of pushy sales techniques that even come close to equating the GW experience are PC World or Currys, where the staff are trained to spot browsers and pitch to them.

Edit: And as I post that, Howard sums it up in a much more succinct manner above me!

Succinct? I wrote more than you. In PC world and the like, a lot of the up selling is to do with getting people to buy on credit as the salesperson gets a significant commission on each one, that just isn't the case in GW.

I get what the OP is saying, as a general rule the sales techniques of the GW staff are not good. The oft told 'baneblade' stories are proof enough of that. The problem though is not really the staff. These guys are gamers. Some are gamers and salesmen/woman (although I am yet to meet a female GW staff member) GW train the staff to sell in the way all retailers sell. The trouble being that unless you have a flair for selling and understanding the customers needs then you will never sell to any great success. You must ask the right questions and link the products to the information the customer has given you. The guy was right to try and upsell but if he had asked the right questions he would have known what items to try and upsell. The OP stated that when shown the dragon 'you just sort of shrug it off'. If you had stated clearly that you don't like that model and want the manticore then there is nothing to say he would have not moved on to trying to upsell you the right products (paints, greenstuff, brushes, etc). GW are to be fair caught between a rock and hard place. 1 they need people with good product knowledge to promote the games, 2 they need good sales staff who can analyse a customer and get the customer what they want and need. Trouble is people who can do the second are not going to waste their time earning NO COMMISION for their efforts for LOW WAGES. Any salesmen worth anything will be off selling something somewhere else for a reasonable pay packet. So really its just one of those things that can not have anything done about it.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Succinct? I wrote more than you. In PC world and the like, a lot of the up selling is to do with getting people to buy on credit as the salesperson gets a significant commission on each one, that just isn't the case in GW.

Well you summed it up certainly more effectively than me!

Yes, the PC World people are motivated by commission and GW staff are not but the net result is the same for me at least; I don't enjoy shopping there (although GW is more uncomfortable by an order of magnitude).

htj wrote:I can't think of a single other shop I have worked or shopped in that practices the same kind of hostile upselling that GW shops do. It is not standard retail practice, at least in the UK. It is obnoxious and poorly thought out, and has cost them sales in many places. Near everyone I know who plays no longer shops in GW stores due to their aggressive sales techniques, and have instead gone for purchasing online from third parties, not due to the discounts, but due to the poor service they recieve from GW stores.

Same experience here, I dont know any high street shops that are quite so aggressive. Last time I asked about exchanging a broken finecast and was told I shouldnt shop at amazon just there.

And every time, we must be about 2 meters into the shop and she tried to sell White Dwarf. Also she can be a bit snide at times, my mrs also plays 40k and is looking at starting Warhammer, while looking at the Orcs and Goblins, she basically never acknowledges her and just said to me 'Well are you going to atleast play a serious army'

Backfired on them because, if they arnt willing to support their own product even if I have purchased it from one of their resellers, I'm not exactly going to spend money there and then out of principle (I should point out their HO said I could return it to the store)

I've worked in a variety of retail establishments in my tour of the world of work and have had and given copious training in upselling and onselling. Be it books, shoes, photography, Chinese food or sushi up/on selling is a part of it.

In the situation the OP describes the salesperson took the wrong tack, should have gone with the onsell (paints, glues, fancy basing type things) than try and upsell to something that's not what you want. And that being said I find the GW staff far too 'keen' I'm not an enthusiastic person by nature so I'm not going to respond well to their approach. Got to tailor it to the person you're speaking to.

Whilst I hate having it done to me (and hated doing it in most cases) upselling works. The number of times I could effectively make a customer spend £10/20/30 more than they were originally looking is immense.
I don't know if GW operates the same as other places but in the shoe chain that I worked the reason that staff member tries to sell you polish, laces etc is because *their job depends on it* if your percentages are too low you'll be managed out of the company. It's horrible but it's how retail runs.

GW are trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

I would rather set foot inside a GW store expecting to be sold to with smartly turned out bright young things able to spot an opportunity (and who know how to hold a conversation) than having to run the gammut of hobbiests who thought working at GW would be a dream come true who now find themselves desperate to meet target.

Keep, the wide, startled eyed, hobby guys in reserve for rolling dice and cleaning up the paint stations. I'll have a conversation with that guy in shiny shoes.

The problem then lies with the unrealistic target of goals set before GW.

They see declining sales revenue and push the customer service upon the employees without really explaining how to handle the finer points of socialization; watching for cues of displeasure, seeing the reactions, knowing when a person simply wants to be left alone.

But understand the pressure these sales people are under. If they don't make their sales goal, they get fired. It is a hard line to walk and actually deteriorates the customer service as the employee is thinking not to get fired first rather than who the customer is before him.

Maybe the GW stores around the Greater Toronto Area are different but I've never really been upsold anything. I'll ask questions and specifically say that I'm not sure what I need to buy and they'll actually help me with what I asked for, and not segue into a different topic altogether.

I don't mind going into GW at all. In fact, it's far worse at my "friendly" local gaming store. THERE, they start going on and on about all the different models and kits they have. "I know you play 40k, do you play Magic? Do you play DnD? Do you play ___________?"
Looking at the prices, I know they've been marked up 10%, sometimes more from other websites. The worst was when I walked in, looking for a specific model (think it may have been Ghazkhull for my brother) and the guy tried to convince me to buy models for Warmachine. Never going there again.

It probably doesn't help that most Warhams players (Warhamsters if you will) fall under the category of "Billy No Mates" (we use the term "Little Billy D-ckface" locally) and any kind of social interaction puts them out of their comfort zone.

It helps if you get to know your local staff. But I mean, why would you do that? They work for the Evil Empire.

I find it depends on the gw one of ours actually listened to what we were after (we were getting back into the hobby) and took the time to help us out.

The other store just wanted us to spend more on a completly different army. It might have worked if I had not just paid £6000 on getting my car fixed an hour before

This is just about the biggest gripe I have with shops, and GW are the worst of the lot; don't come up to me and ask me if I need any help - if I want your help I will come and ask you for it. I've come into your shop to browse - give me a chance to do so!

I've only had the upselling tried on me a couple of times, but thankfully they've backed off when I've told them I'm not interested, but I always get the onsell; "do you need any paint, files, knives etc?" "No thank you, I've got a set of needle files older than you are!"

Not that it's a real problem these days as I rarely visit GW now, what with the horrendous prices and all.

I have two friends; one was a Gw employee and one who was recently release because of Management issues.

Both of them told me what GW marketing strategies are. GW is only interested in the newer gamer. They want the staff to sell starter set to bring these first timers into the hobby. The Second part of the strategy is to push large monster, tanks, and finecast models before all else. They do this to raise interest in the newer models that are release.

Take Storm of Magic for instance, high point value games, large monsters, new scenery and a new book. Their goals are to sell you the newer things on the list first if you been in the hobby for a while. Now every army has to purchase monsters or models from other armies to play a single game.

It all comes down to this. Newer players + New army + new expansion + big and expensive models= Profit

Ok, i know they do this, but this time...

He offered a help, you accepted, them you talked about what you wanted: a bad guys mounted in a big monster. He took that and said "hey, there is something like that here, and its a new product, maybe you dont have seem it, and it fit with what you want".

And i really dont like to apologize for GW...

My brother wouldn't believe how god-awful Winchester GW is so I sent him in with the money to buy a Terminator Lord. He came out 30 minutes later without the model.

One guy "went to look for one out back" whilst the other one tried to sell him at least £250 worth of stuff. My brother even told him "I'm not even buying it for myself, I have the exact money for the exact model" and they tried the hard sale.

There's 'upselling' and there's being a slow. GW Winchester employees = worst. I'll never go in there again (or any GW). I look at it like this - if I'm going to pay the huge mark-up versus buying online by going to GW there needs to be some incentive. Genuinely helpful staff would be one. If I want the models today I can go in to toymaster in my hometown and pay the mark up.

P.S. - anyone seen that handbook with the 10 commandments they have? It's so mental! Every other UK retailer does fine without it.

Jonp wrote:Same experience here, I dont know any high street shops that are quite so aggressive. Last time I asked about exchanging a broken finecast and was told I shouldnt shop at amazon just there.

And every time, we must be about 2 meters into the shop and she tried to sell White Dwarf. Also she can be a bit snide at times, my mrs also plays 40k and is looking at starting Warhammer, while looking at the Orcs and Goblins, she basically never acknowledges her and just said to me 'Well are you going to atleast play a serious army'

Backfired on them because, if they arnt willing to support their own product even if I have purchased it from one of their resellers, I'm not exactly going to spend money there and then out of principle (I should point out their HO said I could return it to the store)

Let me ask you this. If you put your time, money and effort into making a product that you want to sell, wouldn't you be a bit miffed if someone got your product through another company for less? I'm not defending GW's practices, just playing devil's advocate.

Worglock wrote:It helps if you get to know your local staff.

Heh, exactly.

Daston wrote:I find it depends on the gw one of ours actually listened to what we were after (we were getting back into the hobby) and took the time to help us out.

The other store just wanted us to spend more on a completly different army. It might have worked if I had not just paid £6000 on getting my car fixed an hour before

That's usually the case. Its more a matter of who the staff is than GW Corporate's policies.

Eternalhero1983 wrote:I have two friends; one was a Gw employee and one who was recently release because of Management issues.

Both of them told me what GW marketing strategies are. GW is only interested in the newer gamer. They want the staff to sell starter set to bring these first timers into the hobby. The Second part of the strategy is to push large monster, tanks, and finecast models before all else. They do this to raise interest in the newer models that are release.

Take Storm of Magic for instance, high point value games, large monsters, new scenery and a new book. Their goals are to sell you the newer things on the list first if you been in the hobby for a while. Now every army has to purchase monsters or models from other armies to play a single game.

It all comes down to this. Newer players + New army + new expansion + big and expensive models= Profit

I hate to break it to you, but that's not how things are done. I also have two friends. One is a GW employee, and the other is his fiancee, who was the store manager for the one of the busiest stores this side of the pond. GW is not interested in just the new gamer. They're interested in both kinds of player. Yes, the starter bundles are big ticket items, but so is a battleforce, a couple more tanks and a couple boxes of specialist units. In fact, that's more revenue than the AoBR set. The AoBR set is about $100. A battleforce, two tanks and two specialist units come out to about three times more. So if I were GW execs, I'd want to push for more repeat business than new business. Because yes, you may have some people come in and drop $600 at once for their kids, but what happens if/when said kid decides he's outgrown plastic soldiers? No more revenue.

Now look at return customers. They may only spend $30 per visit, but over the course of their gaming, that adds up. 10 visits again equals three times as much as the AoBR set. If I had been a smart aspirant when I got started, I would have gotten the old Macragge set (which also came with terrain/scenery). But because I didn't want two armies and had no one to go halves with, I instead got the old Necron battleforce (also, I just loved the box cover, hehe, but that's another discussion). Anyways, its is usually more in a company's best interests to look out for its return customers than it is to focus on new ones. Now, new customers are important as well, and each set of gamer has its own good and bad points. But it takes both to keep any good company afloat.

htj wrote:I can't think of a single other shop I have worked or shopped in that practices the same kind of hostile upselling that GW shops do. It is not standard retail practice, at least in the UK. It is obnoxious and poorly thought out, and has cost them sales in many places. Near everyone I know who plays no longer shops in GW stores due to their aggressive sales techniques, and have instead gone for purchasing online from third parties, not due to the discounts, but due to the poor service they recieve from GW stores.

The only other place that has the same attitude is DFS. Awful salesmen that literally chase you out around the store and then out the door in desperation for commission. I remember shopping around for a couch ages ago and, foolishly, I decided to check out DFS. Went through the door and was immediately accosted with the "Can I help you?". "No thanks". I then proceeded into the store and was followed by the same salesman who kept walking up asking if he could help. It got so irritating that I just ended up circling round the store and went straight for the door with him following me.

zedmeister wrote:
The only other place that has the same attitude is DFS. Awful salesmen that literally chase you out around the store and then out the door in desperation for commission. I remember shopping around for a couch ages ago and, foolishly, I decided to check out DFS. Went through the door and was immediately accosted with the "Can I help you?". "No thanks". I then proceeded into the store and was followed by the same salesman who kept walking up asking if he could help. It got so irritating that I just ended up circling round the store and went straight for the door with him following me.

This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

If you are there to buy something, then you should be able to say that and be taken to it by the salesperson where they will then help you check out.

If you are not, you need to leave the store.. and following you around especially if others are not in the section is the best way to prevent things from being stolen. ( I know you are not going to steal a couch but still)

If you really are not sure, then you should welcome the help.

How hard would it have been to say "I am here looking for a couch, I am unsure if I am buying today but I wanted to see your couches and compare prices." he might have been able to help you. The second you say "no thanks" you are loitering.

I see no issue. People shoplifting is a huge issue and I support salespeople being on the floor and in customers business. If that drives a non-customer or a their out of the store, then mission accomplished. If you don't want to be 'sold' things, don't go to a retail store.

precisly how was he going to steal a couch with nobody noticing? nkelsch

nkelsch wrote:
This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

Chasing people around in stores is not common in the UK. Besides, I'm not sure how I'd sneak an 80 kg couch out the door. This kind of pushy behaviour is just unacceptable and just doesn't work in this country (UK). It often backfires. I'm there to shop. I like my privacy and being able to discuss my purchases with my partner without harassment.

Your comments about "If that drives a non-customer or a their out of the store, then mission accomplished. If you don't want to be 'sold' things, don't go to a retail store" is just insulting. I was there to buy a couch, however the salesmen saw fit to make my shopping experience miserable. I ended up going next door where I walked round, had the usual "can I help you" "no just browsing". After looking round and finding a few options, I nodded to the salesman for assistance and after 15 minutes walked out the door happy with a new couch and left a pleased salesman with a nice commission. Discretion and tact are valued and underused customer service skills and should be the first thing taught to all budding salesmen.

Also we dont really have to many gw in US but we do have air traffic games which recently stopped selling 40k and i go there buy tactical sqaud and razorback and he tries to start me a trynaid army with raveners and its so strange because I keep telling buzz off. but for Mr lewis its just some poor guy trying to sell you some models.

zedmeister wrote:
Chasing people around in stores is not common in the UK. Besides, I'm not sure how I'd sneak an 80 kg couch out the door. This kind of pushy behaviour is just unacceptable and just doesn't work in this country (UK).

It's business as usual in the US. Different cultures are different.

Can't stand shopping in the UK. A friendly "hello, can I help?" is one thing but I'm so fed up with the constant badgering on salespeople. Not their fault though, lots of shops pay minimum pay and staff need to get bonus's from commission.

Fortunately my local Games Workshop isn't pushy like that.

inquisitorlewis wrote: Since beginning to sell off all my stuff I have become quite hooked on selling on ebay. I have began buying up large lots of WHFB, and 40k breaking them down and selling them on ebay. This has been a nice little source of income for me and my GF and I have recently started our own LLC so we can start buying items wholesale and sell on ebay.

I bought a rather large lot of Tyranids a few weeks ago and included in the lot was a GW giftcard for 88 dollars. Since selling off the rest of the lot paid for the lot and made me a bit of profit I decided that I would spend the giftcard on myself.

I hope the OP is still keeping up with this thread because you really need to think about what Im going to say here.

You are doing the exact. same. thing.
You are making money off of an item. You are buying large lots of mini's in bulk, then breaking them down and selling them piece by piece, trying to milk every last cent out of them.

GW is doing the same thing.

Did you tell the guy you were only interested in the manticore or did you just kinda wander around and pick it up with a vague sense of what you wanted? Sales people HAVE to push stuff, its how they keep their jobs and how the companies stay in business. Dont begrudge them for that, its the same as asking you if you have enough glue, paint, primer, brushes when they make the sell, its just part of the business.

candy.man wrote:The up selling strategy in my personal experience only ever worked on pensioners and idiots.

Now we know what GW thinks of its customers and why it is simplifying its games.

As a recent 'born again' hobbiest, I can say that the guy at my local GW, whilst on selling, did very little up selling considering I wandered in and said I want something shiny. He was very matter of fact, and even made the comment that as grey knights were an elitist force then I would have to buy less models (I know that they sell less models for the same price, but hey I was a bit dazzeled buy the rules at this point).

Point is that aside from checking that i had paints and brushes ect he was quite happy letting me wnader off with just my brotherhood champion. Course i turned up 3 days later to buy more stuff, but he's never pushy about it.

Just my 2 pence worth

I don't see how GW can ever win. They're always going to get derided.

If they have people who man the tills and wait to be spoken to, hobbyists will complain that there's no soul or interaction in the 'hobby centres' and they're just the same as any other corporation's outlets.

If they have, or encourage, enthusiastic painters and modellers who like to bounce over to customers and rave about the latest this, or how about adding that, or did you think about converting this, the people who just want to wander around and take their model to the till will complain.

To be honest I think they just about find the middle ground. If you're being bothered by an over-eager assistant, just say 'I'd like to browse on my own for a while' and, guess what, that's what they'll let you do.

If you're looking for inspiration and the staff member isn't talking to you, a quick 'can I ask you something?' will equally get them chatting about the hobby.

GW has a lot of faults, but I think they don't do the shop thing too badly. And I say this with experience spanning 15 years in 10+ shops across the UK.

I've been in the Florence GW shop only once... The staff had been annoying and tried to sell me pretty everything in the store... After an hour (1 hour!!!!!!!!!) I came out with a metal grots blister... I never came back...

At the main independent store of the city the owner let me browse and loiter as long as I want always being there to make a friendly talk or to give advices... and guess what? He sold to me (in maybe... 1year and half or two..) 2 Assault termies boxes, 2 GK termies Boxes, 1 Stormraven, 1 AoBR and lots of modeling supplies... (he applies lots of dicounts)
How can't GW figure out that its selling strategy is a total crap???

Guess it depends on the store. The one in Echelon Village in NJ is run very well, and it's a one man shop. The guy who runs it does a hell of a job and doesn't really "push" like a used car salesman.

But he does put a crap-ton of effort and work into events and things at the shop that I make it a point to buy there.