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Cool Beans. I'm going to see if I can try to make this.

You'll just be able to buy a ticket to throne of skulls this year, so that's really like a $50 prize.

See ya all there!

64 spots only, for this event, so don't wait too long.

Neoncon will be cool too, either event will be a blast, i'm sure. We didnt't pick the date, it's u.fortunate that they're on the same date.

Looking forward to seeing you guys there!

skullking wrote:Looks like a cool event, but can't we all just get over paint requirements!!!??? I thought that was a GW tournament only rule. Some of us just don't have time to paint, and we enjoy playing in tournaments with our pals, painting point deductions or not.

I don't like playing against bare plastic armies. Tournaments are competitive, and I want it to be all competition, that includes painting. The painting is part of the competition, with out it you take out half the competitive aspect of the hobby. I am not sure I used competitive enough so let me say this. Painting an army is just as important competitively as generalship imo.

I will try and make it Reece, It will be easier than getting to Vegas.

@ overwatch
Hope you can make it! Would be good to have you.

@skullking
Painting is half the hobby, in our opinion. I got a 3,000pt wood elf painted to a three color standard in one night. It isn't hard to do, really. Base them black and dry brush them twice, you're done. Prime them wbite, ink them once, and dry brush them once, and you're done.

Part of the appeal of a gt is that everything is painted and looks great. I am crazy busy too, but if you take a weekend of your life, it's done and you have an army that looks nice and is ready for tournamemt play.

Hope you can make it!

I wish you guys were on the east coast!

I do have a question about your sportsmanship rubric. Your criteria for giving a thumbs down are as follows:

Reecius wrote:Legitimate reasons to give an opponent a thumbs down on sports:

1. Your opponent was 15 or more minutes late to the round.
2. Your opponent was verbally abusive. This does not mean you argued with your opponent or that your personalities clashed, but that they were verbally abusive and insulting.
3. Your opponent intentionally cheated. Be prepared to support your case to a judge.
4. Your opponent slow played. We define slow playing as not completing 3 game turns of play.

This is SO narrow! Due to your rubric, someone could not get a thumbs down if they completed 3 turns. If they had to be corrected over and over on rules from their own book. If they seemingly unintentionally played things wrong to their own advantage often. If they challenged every basic ruling. Or all of the above.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily give someone a thumbs down for isolated things on my list above. But someone could do ALL of it, and still not qualify for a thumbs down on your list.

Basically, there's no room for a pretty bad game- only a game with blatant infractions:

1. Slow playing so bad you don't even finish the 3rd turn (does this really happen? )
2. Cheating
3. Swearing at their opponent? (Not sure what qualifies as verbal abuse, since you explicitly rule out arguing over rules, despite the circumstances)

I think that's making someone go too far to give a thumbs down. Basically, you have thumbs up covering the entire spectrum above the base level of "cheating" (a VERY serious accusation at a tournament, and one most people won't want to resort to). Thumbs down only covers basically prove-able cheating (with the exception of "verbal abuse").


On a more positive note, now that I've long-windedly tried to explain why I think your thumbs down criteria is too narrow... Have you read Mannahnin's article?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Pass_or_Fail_Method_of_Tournament_Sportsmanship_Scoring

I think that question is a bit better for a thumbs up / thumbs down event:

"Did my opponent's attitude and/or behavior make the game an UNpleasant experience, overall?"
Note to the player: Please be sure that your answer is based on your opponent's behavior as a person, not on their army, and certainly not on who won or lost. Thank you!

He then goes on to give the consequences of getting a thumbs down. Given his looser criteria, his marks are more gradual but still serious. However, I believe that gives the flexibility of someone to ding someone for Sportsmanship... rather than your rubric, which only punishes out and out cheating. It also results in your affirming someone's opinion (or disagreeing with it) that the person was cheating, as they have to support their finding to a judge... and that's a whole 'nother can of worms that would be a pain to deal with on the day of...

Meaning most people will probably just put thumbs up for the rubric and leave it at that. If that's what you're looking for, I think it's good... but to call it "Sportsmanship" rather than, I don't know... "Did they get a legal game in?" I think you should loosen up your criteria a bit.

I hear what you're saying, but the point of the system is to do specifically what you said, to only punish blatant offenders. Sports is incredibly subjective, like comp, and opens the door to abuse. As the supreme court stated, i'd rather let 10 guilty men go than condemn one innocent.

We'd rather see a few people get away with being slightly douchey than have one good guy get chipmunked out of winning.

The definition "did my opponant's behaivor make the game unfun" is too nebulous for me. We strictly, and narrowly define what constitutes a thimbs down on purpose to intentionally avoid having them. If someone is behaving that badly, they will be dealt with harshly. If someone loses a game and in the heat of the moment gives a thumbs down in a looser system which causes that person to not win, then that system has failed, imo.

We take the attitude that we are all adults and sometimes you will encounter those individuals whom just rub you the wrong way. It is unfortunate, but a fact of life. Because you may not totally enjoy a game with someone, doesn't constitute giving you the power to take away their ability to win an event they paid to attend.

I' m not sayong our philosophy on the matter is absolutely right, or the only way, but the way we choose to organize our events. We used the exact same system at the bao, and anyone who said anything about it, said they liked it.

We appreciate the input though, and are always open to suggestions. We like this system as it has served us well in every event we have run so far.

Oh, and it should read plays through turn 4, not 3, that is a typo, thanks for bringing that to my attention. But yeah, sometimes guys only get through turn 2!

After getting the flyers from you and your crew, I'd be happy to show up.

Already got my ticket....
...Hopefully this time I can avoid food poisoning on day two.

Magilla Gurilla wrote:Already got my ticket....
...Hopefully this time I can avoid food poisoning on day two.

Ouch!

Bad news, dude.

@cryonicleach

It was nice meeting you! We look forward to having you.

@Magilla Gurilla

That sucks you got food poisoning. It was a bummer you couldn't make the second day, it was good fun for such a small event. We just started drinking lots of beer!

I would totally come to this if I didn't always have to work every weekend ever.......like......every one.

Also, how come no big 2 day 40k events are held in San Diego? I love to play, but driving 2 hours up to LA and having to stay in a hotel and buy con admission is just beyond my budget. Oh well =/

Hope it's a good time for you folks. Perhaps I'll be able to make it to the BAO next year round!

Reecius wrote:In the case of 20 or less minutes left to play, divide the time remaining between players to complete one full GAME turn. Time each other during this period to ensure that each player has an equal amount of time to complete a full game turn. If one player does not finish within their limit, the other player can force them to stop and then begin their turn. This mechanic is in place to ensure no one is slow played out of a turn of play.

I like this rule quite a bit and I hope it becomes a mainstay in every single 40K tournament ever. Did you come up with this yourself Reece or did you get it from another tournament rules-set?

Pulled the trigger and bought a ticket.

As fun as Neoncon sounded, I just don't have the funds to be going to Vegas right now.

I had a really good time at the BAO and I am really looking forward to this one.

I'll save the date.


Trigger pulled. Ticket bought.

yakface wrote:

Reecius wrote:In the case of 20 or less minutes left to play, divide the time remaining between players to complete one full GAME turn. Time each other during this period to ensure that each player has an equal amount of time to complete a full game turn. If one player does not finish within their limit, the other player can force them to stop and then begin their turn. This mechanic is in place to ensure no one is slow played out of a turn of play.

I like this rule quite a bit and I hope it becomes a mainstay in every single 40K tournament ever. Did you come up with this yourself Reece or did you get it from another tournament rules-set?

That's a pretty awesome rule. There is some minor potential for shenanigans, as per the anti-chess-clock arguments of "my opponent will always have to act during my time," but frankly, if the game is that close, people should be sticking to the most-likely-to-matter interactions anyway.

@yakface & janthkin
Yeah, it's my creation. It was something I wanted to do at the bao but decided to pass on because I wanted to keep things as simple as possible. But, at the bao a few players (janthkin, grimgob and others) lost a game because of time when a player took too long to finish a turn. That is not fun nor fair.

There is some possibility for shady play, but I really think this will help to avoid slow plah nonesense.

@skrewpa and axman
Looking forward to having you guys! This will be a really cool tournament.

@aldarionn
I'm a san diego boy myself, and I agree 100%. There should be an sd tournament and we're working on making that happen. It is a beautiful city with a big gaming community. There is no reason a gt shouldn't be there.

I look forward to the day when you run one down here Reece! If you ever make it happen please PM me, or make sure Dave knows and tells me.

Oh yeah, for sure. I am 99% certain it will happen in the 2012 season, it is easy for us now since we have the terrain, the know-how and I know the majority of gamers down there. It is pretty much a no-brainer for us to host a tournament in SD.

Plus that means I get to come hang out with my friends and go drink some beers on the beach!

That is like a win-win-win!

We will definitely let you know when and where it happens so you guys can rally all the GE, and Riverside gamers.

Hopefully you can make Comikaze. Maybe if you request the time off this far out in advance, you can pull it off. To save money, the Zero Comp team car pools and shares hotel rooms. You can get roll away beds and stuff, so you can get 3 in a room comfortably, or you can go crazy like we sometimes do and squeeze 6 into a room! Comfortable? No. Cheap? Yes!

So you may be able to go with some of the SD guys who have already bought tickets to make it a cheap trip. Plus, this will be a pretty unique tournament since it is happening in the middle of a comicon style expo. I think it is going to be a really cool experience. We are really getting excited for it.

Well, the problem is I work for family, and between my mother, myself, and one additional employee we keep the business open. I work Friday and Sunday, both of which are days that nobody else can work the 10 hour shifts I put in. As a result, I'm VERY rarely able to take those days off for something like a con. It's the reason I didn't go to Comi-Con this year. I MIGHT have been able to get the days off if I had known about this a few months ago, but I already booked a 2 week vacation in October, so it's unlikely I'll be able to take another weekend off in November. It sucks, but them's the breaks. I'm very much hoping to make the BAO next year, but I have to wait until after January 1st to know for sure. We shall see.

I appreciate the thorough response about the sportsmanship system, Reecius!

Is it just me thinking incorrectly, or do most fantasy tournaments require both players to play an equal number of turns? I haven't heard of what seems to happen in 40k where one players gets in a turn and another doesn't... that just seems plain wrong. If both players can't get a turn in, none should be played... or a system like yours that at least allows the second player a response.

I.e. in fantasy I haven't played in a "strict dice down" event- you play until both players have had an equal number of turns. Maybe it's just the ones I've been to, though...

I lost this year at the BAO to the IG player that won. he got four turns and I only got three. I was winning before they called 15 min. he begged and I said we dont have enough time. He said he would hurry. made it through him contesting all but one objective, then shooting everything (slowly) at my last objective sitters, and the game ends with him contesting evrything at the top of the turn 4 then "dice down". I was pissed. he only had mostly empty chimeras left on his way to a tabling. this game was the only reason he won the whole thing.

Grimgob wrote:I lost this year at the BAO to the IG player that won. he got four turns and I only got three. I was winning before they called 15 min. he begged and I said we dont have enough time. He said he would hurry. made it through him contesting all but one objective, then shooting everything (slowly) at my last objective sitters, and the game ends with him contesting evrything at the top of the turn 4 then "dice down". I was pissed. he only had mostly empty chimeras left on his way to a tabling. this game was the only reason he won the whole thing.

I needed literally 10 seconds of my turn to turn a loss into a draw (move 1 unit), and didn't get it.

My complaints are tempered by knowing that it was turn 7, and if I hadn't taken any pictures, I may have had enough time, but I like Reece's new system, as it obviates the chances of this happening again.

@ Reece, how many spots are left? I want to attend, since I live close by, but can't commit just now. I will know better in a week or 2.

Grimgob wrote:I lost this year at the BAO to the IG player that won. he got four turns and I only got three. I was winning before they called 15 min. he begged and I said we dont have enough time. He said he would hurry. made it through him contesting all but one objective, then shooting everything (slowly) at my last objective sitters, and the game ends with him contesting evrything at the top of the turn 4 then "dice down". I was pissed. he only had mostly empty chimeras left on his way to a tabling. this game was the only reason he won the whole thing.

So it's your fault I had to play that guy!!! Damn you!!! Ha ha!

I bought my ticket last night. See you guys there.

Dok wrote:

Grimgob wrote:I lost this year at the BAO to the IG player that won. he got four turns and I only got three. I was winning before they called 15 min. he begged and I said we dont have enough time. He said he would hurry. made it through him contesting all but one objective, then shooting everything (slowly) at my last objective sitters, and the game ends with him contesting evrything at the top of the turn 4 then "dice down". I was pissed. he only had mostly empty chimeras left on his way to a tabling. this game was the only reason he won the whole thing.

So it's your fault I had to play that guy!!! Damn you!!! Ha ha!

I bought my ticket last night. See you guys there.

Ah man, never mind I'm not going now. I have played James a few times and I don't think he slow plays purposely. If you didn't get through a turn I doubt it was intentional but I echo your sentiments, and most of the sentiments here, that the 20 minute finish a turn rule is a great step in the right direction. Nice idea Reece.

I don't think he slow played me. I think we didnt have enough time for a turn. he begged till we played. We did not in fact have enough time to play a turn. He only got his half and it was the only reason he won the match. Fact, fact, and fact with no incinuation of slow play at all. If we only have 20 min. left and we are only getting to turn 4, from now on my foot goes down and game over. this is like the second time I havnt gotten my turn at a tourny.

Grimgob wrote:I don't think he slow played me. I think we didnt have enough time for a turn. he begged till we played. We did not in fact have enough time to play a turn. He only got his half and it was the only reason he won the match. Fact, fact, and fact with no incinuation of slow play at all. If we only have 20 min. left and we are only getting to turn 4, from now on my foot goes down and game over. this is like the second time I havnt gotten my turn at a tourny.

I must have misread the first post Grimgob, I thought you were saying he intentionally moved and shot slowly on his turn. My mistake. I have to agree with you about the foot down thing. Unless my opponent agrees to revert back to the previous turns positions should we fail to complete the next turn, I refuse to play further turns with what seems like insufficient time.

Yeah, Grimgob could have given James a thumbs down on comp because they did not finish 4 turns, and it would have been fully justified.

That was a bum deal and convinced me to add this rules mechanic when I was on the fence about it. I am glad you guys like it as it is an idea I have had for a while, but didn't implement. I think it will solve a lot of problems, but it could also have some hurt feelings on the first go around as people get used to it. The player doing the timing will be required to give minute updates, so the controlling player completes their turn.

@RiTides
in 40K both players should play the same amount of turns. We are implementing the timing rule to ensure this happens.

@Aldarrion
Sounds like you have a full plate. Well, hopefully you can make the BAO 2012 as it is going to be bigger and better than the BAO 2011.

@OverwatchCNC
I do not have the exact ticket sales figures at this moment as the web guy is updating the site, but there are still some left as of the last update.