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I can't specifically cite it at the moment but Ragnars GC is the largest at 200(180?). I believe the long held assumption is in the 12 GCs plus rune priests, wolf priests, and iron priests there are right close on 2000 SW.
I call some babyback bs. How can Legion essentially designed to take down another legion be that small, so they lost some dudes at Prospero, what would have happened if Big E had pointed at Rowboat Girlyman? It's just not feasable that there were only 4 thousand SW in M31 and to this day they have failed to recruit back to at least that level. JUST the named BA successors imply that there were 5k in BA not including the nipple marines (thank you new fluff) and it's more or less implied that not ALL of the named 2nd founding BAs are known.
It's FAR more likely that preheresy there were 10k or more SW and Prospero and the scouring cost the SW dearly, but I can't see a wildly non codex group like the SW not finding another Icy deathworld to recruit from and bolstering back to maximum levels. I mean...that's what wolves do, they multiply and expand thier hunting grounds. The unstable geneseed, take a number.
In closing: plastic wulfen, no more squirrels, fix the fluff so that there are actually a reasonable amount of wolves in the 40k universe or limit SW and counts as to 0-2 players in GTs

purplefood wrote:In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

Wolf Guard?

Jaws of the Lone Wolf?

And I've not even read the codex <3

World Wolf, and yes, it's fething annoying.

Sniping specific models with the grand canyon is just not on...


Also- wierd to see Brother Coa bashing an IOM codex

My usual enemy plays SW, but has to admit he finds the codex a bit...odd... in places

As to the number of Space Wolves at the introduction of the Codex Astartes, remember the Scouring once the Heresy was over also cost the Legions greatly. So the Space Wolves probably started in the low tens of thousands, took massive casualties assaulting Prospero, then were tied down fighting (IIRC) Alpha Legion for much of the Heresy and suffered more losses, then probably took a very aggressive stance during the Scouring and suffered further losses chasing the traitors clear to the Eye of Terror.

Given that Astartes normally minimize casualties by fighting inferior foes on their own terms, having to fight a galaxy-wide war of attrition against perfectly matched enemies must have cost both sides horrifically, killing marines far too fast for recruiting to keep up.

Even the Ultramarines, who numbered in the hundreds of thousands at the start of the Heresy, were only able to divide into 26 or so known chapters by the time of the Codex Astartes. The time immediately following the Scouring probably marked the all-time low point in Space Marine numbers in the Imperium for all Legions/Chapters. So roughly 2000 Space Wolves is a reasonable number.

AustonT wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Thanks to all of you for clearing some things up. I think I am going to go UM in the end because I just LOVE how they look. Calgar with some Honor Guard? Gotta look effin' sweet.

Also...nipple marines?
Nevermind, got that one quite quick.

Forrunner, I just want you to know that this isn't personal:
I find that your decision to buy and paint your own models as Ultramarines disappoints me greatly. I reserve the right to mock and deride your decision and it's resulting army without restraint. You and I are no longer internet friends and I will forever troll you here, and on every other board you post on.
GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!













P.S. I'm mostly kidding.

I think we can all agree that GW needs some help in the fluff department (*cough* Matt Ward *cough*).
Ultramarines, Grey Knights...them and others need some help.

Henners91 wrote:

purplefood wrote:In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

Wolf Guard?

Jaws of the Lone Wolf?

And I've not even read the codex <3

Wolf Guard is from old editions.

ARGH! Every time I hear about a certain chapter or army, I want to play as them ;(
The problem centers around the IF, Salamanders, UM, and IG.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

I really like Gks and have this same problem! The way I figure it, so many of the codexs are called broken, really, just play the army if you want to.
Don't choose an army specifically because it's over-powered, but collect any army you actually want

Remulus wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

I really like Gks and have this same problem! The way I figure it, so many of the codexs are called broken, really, just play the army if you want to.
Don't choose an army specifically because it's over-powered, but collect any army you actually want

I agree. I use a Space Wolf army, where the Wolf Lord has 0% GW parts. It's not because I want to make a kick your teeth in army, it's because I love the Space Wolves. I play No Long Fangs, and one squad of TWC, because I found sweet models for them. I build a list, and loosely make an army off of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

purplefood wrote:In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

Wolf Guard?

Jaws of the Lone Wolf?

And I've not even read the codex <3

Wolf Guard is from old editions.

Uhh... What now?

Chowderhead wrote:

Remulus wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

I really like Gks and have this same problem! The way I figure it, so many of the codexs are called broken, really, just play the army if you want to.
Don't choose an army specifically because it's over-powered, but collect any army you actually want

I agree. I use a Space Wolf army, where the Wolf Lord has 0% GW parts. It's not because I want to make a kick your teeth in army, it's because I love the Space Wolves. I play No Long Fangs, and one squad of TWC, because I found sweet models for them. I build a list, and loosely make an army off of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

purplefood wrote:In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

Wolf Guard?

Jaws of the Lone Wolf?

And I've not even read the codex <3

Wolf Guard is from old editions.

Uhh... What now?

Lol

purplefood wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

You're aware you can play SW and not have a 'cheesy' list?

Can you? I mean, your army will probably start with Grey Hunters.... and there goes your intent out the window.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

Chowderhead wrote:

Remulus wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

I really like Gks and have this same problem! The way I figure it, so many of the codexs are called broken, really, just play the army if you want to.
Don't choose an army specifically because it's over-powered, but collect any army you actually want

I agree. I use a Space Wolf army, where the Wolf Lord has 0% GW parts. It's not because I want to make a kick your teeth in army, it's because I love the Space Wolves. I play No Long Fangs, and one squad of TWC, because I found sweet models for them. I build a list, and loosely make an army off of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

purplefood wrote:In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

Wolf Guard?

Jaws of the Lone Wolf?

And I've not even read the codex <3

Wolf Guard is from old editions.

Uhh... What now?

I believe he means the term wolf guard has been around from the end of the rogue trader days when they did a little SW specific army list in WD, not the current range of models.

As for Matt Wards fluff, is it really any better than what some people would come out with given half a chance? "And lo, the mighty Dark Angels did lure the Dark Elder kabals to their side by revealing they dressed like Franknfurter from the Rocky Horror Picture Show under them there dresses and they did smite everyone else a new one!"
Only problem I have with BA nowadays is they just sound too emo vampirey, especially with how some red shirt was trying to sell them to a wannabe emo kid in a GW I wandered into one day. The grimdark story in 2nd ed of a BA captain scaring a guadsman commander stupid and restraining himself from ripping the guardsman apart was more fitting.
SW I always loved the models, had a small army start of 2nd ed, sold em never got round to replacing them, heard "things" about them in their new incarnation and avoided like the plague... Oddly what I've done with BA too.
Just hope this isn't setting a trend as I have a couple of cases of DA sitting doing nothing and unused as I don't want to be using special characters just to make an army playable

AustonT wrote:I can't specifically cite it at the moment but Ragnars GC is the largest at 200(180?). I believe the long held assumption is in the 12 GCs plus rune priests, wolf priests, and iron priests there are right close on 2000 SW.
I call some babyback bs. How can Legion essentially designed to take down another legion be that small, so they lost some dudes at Prospero, what would have happened if Big E had pointed at Rowboat Girlyman? It's just not feasable that there were only 4 thousand SW in M31 and to this day they have failed to recruit back to at least that level. JUST the named BA successors imply that there were 5k in BA not including the nipple marines (thank you new fluff) and it's more or less implied that not ALL of the named 2nd founding BAs are known.

Um, could it be because they weren't essentially designed to take down another Legion? That point is made by one aging Wolf Priest tasked with babysitting/impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are, it can hardly be taken as fact.

It's FAR more likely that preheresy there were 10k or more SW and Prospero and the scouring cost the SW dearly, but I can't see a wildly non codex group like the SW not finding another Icy deathworld to recruit from and bolstering back to maximum levels. I mean...that's what wolves do, they multiply and expand thier hunting grounds. The unstable geneseed, take a number.

They can't just "find another Icy deathworld to recruit from" for the same reason they don't have successor Chapters. For whatever reason, the efficacy of the Canis Helix is linked to the genetics of Fenrisians, and there are only so many of them to go around.

I have to admit, I got into BA at a young age (Maybe 7) purely because they were red... Red was MY colour and blue was my brothers haha...

But seriously, I started collecting again recently and while gaming with a mate's borrowed Dark Angels I read through codex after codex and found that Blood Angels suited my playing style. I like the all out charge, if you're gonna attack the enemy, attack the enemy! Don't fanny around like some of the adopted hit and run (Eldar) style strategy, just fight and see who's still standing.

I love their iconography and the fact they go berserk BUT I can't stand the sanguinary guard purely because I think they're overrated... If you're gonna take them, take a death company dread and some sternguard's to control you're enemies lines. And if you really want sanguinary guard, just buy a set and convert them into sanguinary priest's, they look great in white and serve a purpose!

As for Space Wolves, I have no idea but am looking into buying a set and creating a custom chapter based on all the Nordic gods. Odin, Thor, Loki etc! So will back track and read = )

AustonT wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

That makes literally no sense. If you want to play SW and not have people look down on you, dont play with people who are willing to look down on you based on army choice. If however they look down on you because you take advantage of the most obvious flaws in the codex and spam it, well you probably deserve it.
Unless you paint your models blue and start trying to tell me how much better smurfs are than anyone else, then disregard all above. Your soul is irredeemably lost to the Emperor.

This made laugh so hard...in the office...and now everyone is staring...

Omegus wrote:

AustonT wrote:I can't specifically cite it at the moment but Ragnars GC is the largest at 200(180?). I believe the long held assumption is in the 12 GCs plus rune priests, wolf priests, and iron priests there are right close on 2000 SW.
I call some babyback bs. How can Legion essentially designed to take down another legion be that small, so they lost some dudes at Prospero, what would have happened if Big E had pointed at Rowboat Girlyman? It's just not feasable that there were only 4 thousand SW in M31 and to this day they have failed to recruit back to at least that level. JUST the named BA successors imply that there were 5k in BA not including the nipple marines (thank you new fluff) and it's more or less implied that not ALL of the named 2nd founding BAs are known.

Um, could it be because they weren't essentially designed to take down another Legion? That point is made by one aging Wolf Priest tasked with babysitting/impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are, it can hardly be taken as fact.

It's FAR more likely that preheresy there were 10k or more SW and Prospero and the scouring cost the SW dearly, but I can't see a wildly non codex group like the SW not finding another Icy deathworld to recruit from and bolstering back to maximum levels. I mean...that's what wolves do, they multiply and expand thier hunting grounds. The unstable geneseed, take a number.

They can't just "find another Icy deathworld to recruit from" for the same reason they don't have successor Chapters. For whatever reason, the efficacy of the Canis Helix is linked to the genetics of Fenrisians, and there are only so many of them to go around.

Ahh poor Omegus still upset about not being a special snowflake.

The Wolves being tasked as the Emperors executionors is epressed by more then just the single rune priest. Russ makes a point that it wont be the first time he has had to sanction a fellow Legion. Hell the damn author gave that hint in pre-release interviews.

No matter how much it irks you and the fluff of whatever army you play, the fact that the Wolves were the Emperor's executionors is now canon. You can keep fighting that facet introduced into the canon, but more and more it just makes you look like you are whining.

Maybe you should take solace in the fact that you should notice that I use the past tense above. The Wolves WERE the Emperor's executionors. Now they are just a chapter, albeit one that had a special purpose 10,000yrs in the past. The current codex has the Wolves possessing, "uncanny abilities above and beyond even the superhuman Space Marines of the other Chapters", which could be the legacy of what they used to be as Abnett hints to.

Keep up the good fight though, I am sure your fellow SW haters will always rally to your cry.

Poor Brother Ramses, still upset about being proven wrong on so many occasions and never being able to provide a single citation.

Even if this point wasn't very subject to debate, Black Library is not canon.

I don't understand what the issue is? Surely it's down to people's preference? And in that case what other people think of your choice is their opinion. Opinion doesn't mean anything!... Unless they're a sadistic tyranical dictator which I hardly think the likes of Kim Jong Il are trawling this forum slagging off your choice of space marine chapter and even if he was, don't worry about it till the unlikely event that the North Korean's take over the world!

Digression over, if people are that worried, justify why you pick them and attack back. For instance:
Ultramarines are jumped up poster boys who keep all the glory that they don't deserve!
Blood Angels clearly watched too much of the Hulk growing up.
Crimson Fists... C'mon, that's just a brutally gay name...
Dark Angels - Seriously!? You just wanna sit in the corner and cry about it!?
etc...

Who cares...

The Blood Angels codex is okay, only thing that bothered me was the necron part, i wish it was explained more thats about it. They aren't broken I have found them incredibly easy to beat with a few of my lists.

Space wolves I only have one way of beating them and it is the cheesiest list I have ever dreamt of. And no i will not show it.

Omegus wrote:

AustonT wrote:I can't specifically cite it at the moment but Ragnars GC is the largest at 200(180?). I believe the long held assumption is in the 12 GCs plus rune priests, wolf priests, and iron priests there are right close on 2000 SW.
I call some babyback bs. How can Legion essentially designed to take down another legion be that small, so they lost some dudes at Prospero, what would have happened if Big E had pointed at Rowboat Girlyman? It's just not feasable that there were only 4 thousand SW in M31 and to this day they have failed to recruit back to at least that level. JUST the named BA successors imply that there were 5k in BA not including the nipple marines (thank you new fluff) and it's more or less implied that not ALL of the named 2nd founding BAs are known.

Um, could it be because they weren't essentially designed to take down another Legion? That point is made by one aging Wolf Priest tasked with babysitting/impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are, it can hardly be taken as fact.

It's FAR more likely that preheresy there were 10k or more SW and Prospero and the scouring cost the SW dearly, but I can't see a wildly non codex group like the SW not finding another Icy deathworld to recruit from and bolstering back to maximum levels. I mean...that's what wolves do, they multiply and expand thier hunting grounds. The unstable geneseed, take a number.

They can't just "find another Icy deathworld to recruit from" for the same reason they don't have successor Chapters. For whatever reason, the efficacy of the Canis Helix is linked to the genetics of Fenrisians, and there are only so many of them to go around.

I can concede that the Wolves weren't intended to be executioners. I have to disagree with the Canis Helix being linked to Fenrisian genetics. The genetic code for SW geneseed was created by the emperor, on earth with no knowledge of Fenrisian genetics. SW were recruited and created on Terra initially. It's just too convenient and I cannot accept that explanation. The geneseed is unstable, that's not exactly unique. Fluff wise there is no reason for the High Lords not to attempt another founding of SWs. Realistically they laid on the Viking/Rus real heavy and it didnt lend itself well to more than minor divergence from the main SW stuff.

Bobakos wrote:

AustonT wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

That makes literally no sense. If you want to play SW and not have people look down on you, dont play with people who are willing to look down on you based on army choice. If however they look down on you because you take advantage of the most obvious flaws in the codex and spam it, well you probably deserve it.
Unless you paint your models blue and start trying to tell me how much better smurfs are than anyone else, then disregard all above. Your soul is irredeemably lost to the Emperor.

This made laugh so hard...in the office...and now everyone is staring...

I make myself laugh a lot, it's good to know other people enjoy it too.

AustonT wrote: I have to disagree with the Canis Helix being linked to Fenrisian genetics. The genetic code for SW geneseed was created by the emperor, on earth with no knowledge of Fenrisian genetics. SW were recruited and created on Terra initially. It's just too convenient and I cannot accept that explanation. The geneseed is unstable, that's not exactly unique. Fluff wise there is no reason for the High Lords not to attempt another founding of SWs. Realistically they laid on the Viking/Rus real heavy and it didnt lend itself well to more than minor divergence from the main SW stuff.

Fluffwise, attempts to make a successor chapter to the Space Wolves have failed, creating horrible mutant monstrosities. Fluffwise, unstable geneseed is rarely used for additional foundings, which is why half the SM chapters are now successors to Ultramarines. Fluffwise, there's a whole book dedicated to severe flaw in SW geneseed and how it doesn't work on non-Fenrisians (Battle for the Fang).

But you are right, it doesn't make sense that they founded the Legion just fine on earth, and yet suddenly are now having problems, unless the Canis Helix was something introduced after Russ was discovered. After all, it is non-standard procedure for Astartes creation, and it would seem odd that they chose one Legion at random to get a werewolf potion along with their implants. Another possibility is that the genetics of the Fenris recruits altered their geneseed in slight ways, making further geneseed harvested from the progenitor glands incompatible with other humans (since most of the Earth-based Astartes were almost extinct as early as the Horus Heresy).

Some good points.

One thing I think people overlook when looking at the Space Wolves fluff is that, though successor chapters are impossible, Renegade Marines are not. It has been stated that every legion or chapter has had renegades, save for the grey knights, so it stands to reason Space Wolves would, as well. IIRC, there is one Chaos Warband that is quite possibly this in canon, and, due to MotW, I'd say it would be a safe bet that they do not worship Chaos, since the Wulfen are some form of genetic safety mechanism from Chaos influences. Basically, what I'm getting at is, is Chaos Space Wolves that should legitimately use the Space Wolves 'dex.

@Omegus
It's true that unstable geneseed isn't used for successors but the BA geneseed has been notably unstable for some time but still used up to the Cursed founding (23?). When has the IoM ever stopped at ONE failure?
As a caution I do not accept BL works as canon, they do provide interesting IDEAS and expand the possible background but are just as easily ignored. I haven't read BoF, but I might be interested to hear it's take on the issue nontheless.
The explanation that Fenrisian genes has tampered with the progenoid gland is a plausible explanation that I think I could get behind. The issue I see is that the progenoid essentially overwrites a SMs code so something in Fenrisian genes would have to be pretty potent. Also out of a legion of say 10,000 original Terran SWs there weren't enough untainted progenoids to make a new chapter come 2nd or 3rd founding? I mean there's not the best explaination Of where and how the genebanks get thier stuff from to make new chapters unless it's from the tithes to check for purity. Given how precious geneseeds are to the chapter I assume a central repository on say Luna has a backstock of original geneseeds from the way way back. In which case SWs would be game for at least one more try in a new founding before writing them off. That just my take.

The same can be said about studio material, since there are plenty of contradictions in there too as various people wrote for it over the last couple of decades, and the overall vision changed multiple times. All of 40K background can be cherry-picked as the reader desires.

That said, so far both studio and BL material all agree that SW cannot have successors. Plus, have you considered that even if it were possible, the IoM wouldn't want to create successor Chapters to the Space Wolves? The repositories have plenty of geneseed from far more stable Chapters than the Wolves, yet they reach for the Ultramarine stuff more often than not. Dark Angels' geneseed is just as pure, yet they haven't had many (any?) Successor Chapters since the initial run because the Imperium is suspicious of their hidden agenda.

Space Wolves do not follow the Codex, from number of troops to their fleet strength, and they flout Imperial regulations and authority figures on a regular basis. Basically the only reason they haven't been purged from the Imperium is because they are useful and uprooting them would take too many resources.

Personally Space Wolves have always annoyed me and there is only one reason for it. Jealousy. I see all the cool options they get and ask "Why can't my Space Marines do that?" Space Wolves and Blood Angels are both too cool for school and it makes other Space Marines jealous.

You forgot GKs. I have a whole bunch of saved pictures of Smurfs using chapter specific gear from other books, as if having the whole C:SM dedicated to thier worship wasn't enough. So far I have a Baal pred, and a dreadknight...it's too easy to counts as with no special models in SW. But if I see a Smurf Thundersquirrel it's on.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

Lets speak for a moment, what people dont like in this codex? Rune Priests, Long Fangs Spam, TWC cavalry, and Grey Hunters "cheapness". Rune Priest have a cheese power, serious, Jaws is absurdly strong.

So, what you must do to avoid "complains": dont use Long Fangs and Rune Priests. Sorry, TWC is not cheesy, its a super nova: a big, costly unit, that is hard to kill, but not impossible. Give the right ammount of sustained fire and they will go down. Well, they cost 500 points or more (just dont spam TWCs). Go happy to the rest of the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:The same can be said about studio material, since there are plenty of contradictions in there too as various people wrote for it over the last couple of decades, and the overall vision changed multiple times. All of 40K background can be cherry-picked as the reader desires.

That said, so far both studio and BL material all agree that SW cannot have successors. Plus, have you considered that even if it were possible, the IoM wouldn't want to create successor Chapters to the Space Wolves? The repositories have plenty of geneseed from far more stable Chapters than the Wolves, yet they reach for the Ultramarine stuff more often than not. Dark Angels' geneseed is just as pure, yet they haven't had many (any?) Successor Chapters since the initial run because the Imperium is suspicious of their hidden agenda.

Space Wolves do not follow the Codex, from number of troops to their fleet strength, and they flout Imperial regulations and authority figures on a regular basis. Basically the only reason they haven't been purged from the Imperium is because they are useful and uprooting them would take too many resources.

Space Wolves dont found new chapters. But sometimes a company "brake" with the chapter itself, and start to use alternative colors/practices. A company can even brake with the chapter to become a "cannon codex" (just write a nice fluff).

I do like those TWC units

forruner_mercy wrote:So, a while back had a thread going for a good amount of time asking you guys on Dakka why players seem to have an issue with the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, I got some pretty good responses, most of which revolved around Matt Ward, and they had proof to back their opinions up. Of course, I did get a good amount of the 'they suck cause they are blue and they are poster boys'. That irked me to no end, but I ignored those.

So now I am wondering what it is about the BA and SW chapters that players do not like. Fluff should not be involved here, as I know about the derpy-ness in both. Mostly, I would like to know why people count them, especially the SW, as nooby armies?

With SW, it's because they're not only better than their counterparts but cheaper as well with more options that generally also are cheaper. Additionally, they more often play like old school Iron Warriors gunlines or Imperial Guard armies massing as many heavy weapons as possible (I've often seen SW armies with more long range AT guns than the IG armies they're facing) and don't really play like, well, Space Wolves.

Blood Angels aren't as bad, but generally have the feeling of "here's Codex: Space Marines, but patched". The Fast on everything feels really forced and completely unnecessary, not only from a flavor/background perspective but from a balance perspective as well.