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Vaktathi wrote:

Blood Angels aren't as bad, but generally have the feeling of "here's Codex: Space Marines, but patched". The Fast on everything feels really forced and completely unnecessary, not only from a flavor/background perspective but from a balance perspective as well.

Couldn't agree more in the first sentence, Couldnt agree less in the second. The Fast for rhino chasis is a logical evolution of the OE rules, no clumsy rolling and extended beyond just Troop transports was probably a little much. At least LRs didn't get fast too, but DS is a little derpy. The general feel of SMs but patched is wholly correct for BA, I often sigh in wistful remembrance of the 3e BA codex that had grey boxes with the words "See Codex:SM" in terms of gameplay they succeeded in making BA players gravitate to a mech, or all JP army. The PDF actually encouraged a gunline, which was silly for BA. It's not the most balanced, but considering it'll probably not see another update for 10 years it should at least remain fun to play for that long. If C:BA had allowed a TDA build, Biker Build, or a Dev heavy Gunline I would have gone bananas. At least it's basically a Fast Attack army without stealing SMs thunder.

People really dont like the Space Wolves because they have better stats than normal SM's and for less points

SW 'Tactical' Marines are too cheap even with their LD being slightly lower than vanilla Tactical Marines.

Longfangs are too strong for their price.

Thunderwolf Cavalry are kinda cheesy, but for the most part they're just lame. Marines riding wolves. In the fething 41st century...really? At least the fact tanks of any sort still exist is excusable, but the Imperium's elite using wolves...c'mon...

They have the only terminators that can take drop pods.

Wolf Lords at the time of their release were probably the best melee characters in game tooled correctly. 3+ invul AND eternal warrior? Oh, and you ALWAYS hit on 3+? Eff off man.

They have strong psykers, but aside from JotWW I don't consider them to be game breaking.


Blood Angels WOULD be awesome IF they toned down or got rid of the damn vampire metaphors.

Non GK/BA marine players are jealous over Stormravens.

They have assault marines as troop choices.

Descent of Angels special rule.

It's easy to give a large portion of the army, if not all of it, FNP and FC at a low cost.

Librarian Dreadnaught...

Very powerful melee dreadnaughts.



Both chapters have a lot more life and color to them than vanilla marines and a lot more interesting, unique, and cool tools. Ultramarines are very blah in comparison.

AustonT wrote:
Couldn't agree more in the first sentence, Couldnt agree less in the second. The Fast for rhino chasis is a logical evolution of the OE rules, no clumsy rolling and extended beyond just Troop transports was probably a little much.

While yes, Fast is a logical extension of the old OE rules, the old OE rules always had a potential negative and were primarily there for getting troops to positions, not making Fast Armored Companies. Fast on everything coupled with the Baal having Scout and being a Fast Attack choice instead of HS where it belongs means that the army can field far too much heavy armor, far too effectively and have it all constantly be mobile which is the primary drawback of such units in 5E.

Having it on battle taxi's was one thing, as you said, but when they universally applied to to everything such as Razorbacks, Vindicators and Predators it lends entirely too much mobility to armies with several dozen assault troops backed by half a dozen battle tanks and often half a dozen lascannon packing IFV's. Had Rhino's been made fast, probably not too much of an issue, most people would be fine with that, but having it on every rhino chassis was a bit much, and feels forced in the way that it was done purely as an excuse to help justify the existence of a BA codex which would otherwise be 80% identical or more to C:SM. The old BA preference for speed units was typically expressed by taking lots of jump pack troops, some transports, etc and not relying on footsloggers and heavy battle tanks and gunline units so much, but has evolved over years and editions to basically be expressed simply through having superior units instead sadly.

At least LRs didn't get fast too, but DS is a little derpy.

Right, it's not a huge deal really, but just feels silly.

The general feel of SMs but patched is wholly correct for BA, I often sigh in wistful remembrance of the 3e BA codex that had grey boxes with the words "See Codex:SM" in terms of gameplay they succeeded in making BA players gravitate to a mech, or all JP army. The PDF actually encouraged a gunline, which was silly for BA. It's not the most balanced, but considering it'll probably not see another update for 10 years it should at least remain fun to play for that long. If C:BA had allowed a TDA build, Biker Build, or a Dev heavy Gunline I would have gone bananas. At least it's basically a Fast Attack army without stealing SMs thunder.

In some ways true, but it still contributes heavily to the sentiment amongst many players of "why play 5E C:SM when all other 5E Marine armies are 'Marines+1'?"

Basically I agree with your more expanded analysis. I will admit I now field basically a Red Armored Company, because it's effective. The difference between me and I would hope other BA players is WHEN, not if the C:SM update makes that codex better than BA I won't be switching to the FoTM. For now I'll accept that certain things in the book are wonky and not entirely fair to vanilla players. It won't last. Unlike C:SWs there no huge unbalanced parts of tue Red Marines codex that will cause it to be a tournament powerhouse a couple years down the road.