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So, a while back had a thread going for a good amount of time asking you guys on Dakka why players seem to have an issue with the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, I got some pretty good responses, most of which revolved around Matt Ward, and they had proof to back their opinions up. Of course, I did get a good amount of the 'they suck cause they are blue and they are poster boys'. That irked me to no end, but I ignored those.

So now I am wondering what it is about the BA and SW chapters that players do not like. Fluff should not be involved here, as I know about the derpy-ness in both. Mostly, I would like to know why people count them, especially the SW, as nooby armies?

forruner_mercy wrote:So, a while back had a thread going for a good amount of time asking you guys on Dakka why players seem to have an issue with the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, I got some pretty good responses, most of which revolved around Matt Ward, and they had proof to back their opinions up. Of course, I did get a good amount of the 'they suck cause they are blue and they are poster boys'. That irked me to no end, but I ignored those.

So now I am wondering what it is about the BA and SW chapters that players do not like. Fluff should not be involved here, as I know about the derpy-ness in both. Mostly, I would like to know why people count them, especially the SW, as nooby armies?

You say fluff should not be involved in this thread, and proceed to post it in the 40k Background section?

Interesting.

Void__Dragon wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:So, a while back had a thread going for a good amount of time asking you guys on Dakka why players seem to have an issue with the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, I got some pretty good responses, most of which revolved around Matt Ward, and they had proof to back their opinions up. Of course, I did get a good amount of the 'they suck cause they are blue and they are poster boys'. That irked me to no end, but I ignored those.

So now I am wondering what it is about the BA and SW chapters that players do not like. Fluff should not be involved here, as I know about the derpy-ness in both. Mostly, I would like to know why people count them, especially the SW, as nooby armies?

You say fluff should not be involved in this thread, and proceed to post it in the 40k Background section?

Interesting.

Well, I can see what you're getting at. It just seemed like the best place to put this, although in hindsight, General Discussion should have been a better place.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Too bad that most of the time, like now, it does not really help much.

Hindsight Man to the rescue!

Coolyo294 wrote:
Hindsight Man to the rescue!

It's Captain Hindsight. In hindsight, you should have watched that particular South Park episode, just for witnessing Cthulhu squish Justin Bieber.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a more related subject, it's their rules, Space Wolves in particular. They don't play like an assault oriented army of techno-vikings but more like a Guard army. Overloaded with Long Fangs is not what you'd expect. Their models are great, even if some of the hairdos could be tweaked, or thrown to the bottom of a well which is then bricked over, but I'm confident that I'd be able to cut, file and green stuff them to make them passable.
Blood Angels aren't so bad. I have my own force, Death Company mostly, I actually have few problems with them outside of fluff. I'm not too familiar with most of their play styles outside of massed Death Company charges, so I'll let someone else go on about them.

The vast majority of the complaints you will get will sound something like this.

SW are undercosted.
SW who supposidly hate psychers have the best psycher in the game.
Long Fangs are game breaking.
Marines riding wolves is stupid.
Everything has Wolf in the name.

Did I miss anything? Its the same thing you read in every thread that contains Space wolves. The truth of the matter is, SW are a fifth ed codex. Any codex that is not a fifth ed codex is just not going to compare. But I don't see any build in the SW codex that is more broken or abusive as the power builds in IG, BA, or GK codex.

The reason you see so many counts as SW armies at tournaments is because yes it is a stronger codex than codex marines (someone had to be first, and when this codex was released it was by far the strongest codex on the market) and its stupidly easy to do counts as when everything is armed the same and has 80% of the same base model.

In fairness not everything has wolf in the name...
TWC, wolfclaws and lonewolves are the only new thing with wolf in the name. All the other stuff was present in the previous codex although some had different rules.

There's a rule in 40k to hate the newest codexes. SW have now surpassed this and moved to infamous territory of having a broken cheesy codex. Hate for BA will fade like it always does when FoTM WAAC players move on (if they havent already) and all you have to complain about is mech spam and DoA.

The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

That makes literally no sense. If you want to play SW and not have people look down on you, dont play with people who are willing to look down on you based on army choice. If however they look down on you because you take advantage of the most obvious flaws in the codex and spam it, well you probably deserve it.
Unless you paint your models blue and start trying to tell me how much better smurfs are than anyone else, then disregard all above. Your soul is irredeemably lost to the Emperor.

AustonT wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

That makes literally no sense. If you want to play SW and not have people look down on you, dont play with people who are willing to look down on you based on army choice. If however they look down on you because you take advantage of the most obvious flaws in the codex and spam it, well you probably deserve it.
Unless you paint your models blue and start trying to tell me how much better smurfs are than anyone else, then disregard all above. Your soul is irredeemably lost to the Emperor.

I think I could have worded that better. Let me try again:
I just don't want people biing about me using the SW if I did. And if I did play as SW, I would more than likely not use the "broken rules". And no, I am not trying to say how much better the UM are. I do like them, and are in my top 5 fav chapters, but I am not a "fanboy".
And don't take this as being mean if you do. If you do not think I am being mean, then disregard what I just typed.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

Just to nitpick here, Space Wolves can't have successor chapters. They tried it before, along with everyone else after the Heresy, but the new gene-seed for the successor chapter became so corrupted and unusable that the chapter was disbanded/destroyed.

Trying to quote from memory here. I don't remember the specific details, but I do recall the fact that Wolves don't have successors.

Even without true founding successors there's always the possibility part of the legion campaigned outside of imperial control, established a gene bank. Blah blah. And came back. 40k is the land of the impossible being made manifest.
@forruner
I've got thick skin, don't sweat it.
What I'm trying to convey is that there's no reason not to play SW if that's what you want. I'm certainly not going to stop playing BA after 12 years just because it got picked up by a bunch of FOTM players and now people want to cry. Pick your army and stick with it and you can be above reproach.

AustonT wrote:Even without true founding successors there's always the possibility part of the legion campaigned outside of imperial control, established a gene bank. Blah blah. And came back. 40k is the land of the impossible being made manifest.
@forruner
I've got thick skin, don't sweat it.
What I'm trying to convey is that there's no reason not to play SW if that's what you want. I'm certainly not going to stop playing BA after 12 years just because it got picked up by a bunch of FOTM players and now people want to cry. Pick your army and stick with it and you can be above reproach.

Ok, thanks. Sucks about them not having successor chapters though. And yeah, you got a point there about the FOTM stuff. Anywho, more then likely I will end up playing as UM or IF. I am thinking UM, as I genuinely like them, no fanboyism involved. The UM models look awesome, IMO. Calgar and that Honor Squad are some of the nicer looking models that I have seen.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

You're aware you can play SW and not have a 'cheesy' list?

purplefood wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

You're aware you can play SW and not have a 'cheesy' list?

I am aware
But first I need to see what amies play at my FLGS, which is a library. Have not been there in a while...

Vanilla marines have the fluff mechanic of successor chapters to add whatever fluff or color players want in their custom chapter.

Space Wolves do not have that fluff mechanic, instead they are given a mechanic for players to play a lost great company or a company whose wolf lord does not agree with the current great wolf, so takes his company off on his own mission.

The result is the same for both armies, players get to create an army with theor own colors and beliefs then the core codex.

Aren't they capable of out-shooting, out-meleeing, and out-running most other armies...for cheaper? It's codex creep on crack

I'm glad this thread came back. Whoever said there are no successors to the SWs misspoke. I was flipping through my 3ed SM codex the other day and SWs have at least one succesor.

That successor chapter was... ill-fated, to say the least. They haven't tried to create another SW successor Chapter since then, as the stability of the Wulfen Helix is of great concern.

The Ill-fated wolf brothers chapter. Not good.

I quite like the idea of SW but they aren't my style, and unless you are spamming longfangs or whatever, I don't see how anyone can really object, seeing as it's obvious that you aren't playing wolves just to WAAC, and actually like the army.

Jayden63 wrote:The vast majority of the complaints you will get will sound something like this.

SW are undercosted.
SW who supposidly hate psychers have the best psycher in the game.
Long Fangs are game breaking.
Marines riding wolves is stupid.
Everything has Wolf in the name.

Did I miss anything? Its the same thing you read in every thread that contains Space wolves. The truth of the matter is, SW are a fifth ed codex. Any codex that is not a fifth ed codex is just not going to compare. But I don't see any build in the SW codex that is more broken or abusive as the power builds in IG, BA, or GK codex.

I think you missed razorback spam. A very comprehensive list though!

And the wolves don't use psykers..they used wyrdmakers... duh

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

Last time I check its your dollar and you have the choice to play the game how you'd like.

Here's the problem I see: People here about SW winning all these tournaments, see all these lists that are super competitive and don't seem to be able to process how to handle it. However, reality is different.

Do I have a 2500 point army that is completely competitive and looks to do the max damage it can do every turn? Absolutely, seeing as I'm going to another state to play in the next level of 'Ard Boyz. However, would I ever bring such a list against someone looking to play casually and have fun with it? Absolutely not. Like someone mentioned above, I have tons of lists that are just for fun and most exclude (gasp!) Long Fangs or have them equipped with not-15 missile launchers. In fact, I love playing casually a lot more because I can play the army the way its meant to be played: with high costing HQ units and retinues that run around trying to live up to their Sagas.

The stigma the SW codex has is completely ridiculous as its just another 5th Ed. codex, just prove people wrong by having fun with it.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

Theres nothing wrong with playing a Space Wolves army. You might get a bit of ribbing from opponents if you run a power-build SW army, but I can't see many people looking down on you in principle because you play them. You'd get even less for playing UMs because the only complaints people can make are fluff based. Vanilla marines (that is, Ultramarines) aren't an inherently undercosted, overpowered army like SWs are.


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FireWolf698 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is, I really like the look of the SW and UM. But I am afraid that people will look down on me if I choose either of those. Although, I could do a successor chapter to the SW, but not using the SW codex, just the C:SM.

Last time I check its your dollar and you have the choice to play the game how you'd like.

Here's the problem I see: People here about SW winning all these tournaments, see all these lists that are super competitive and don't seem to be able to process how to handle it. However, reality is different.

Do I have a 2500 point army that is completely competitive and looks to do the max damage it can do every turn? Absolutely, seeing as I'm going to another state to play in the next level of 'Ard Boyz. However, would I ever bring such a list against someone looking to play casually and have fun with it? Absolutely not. Like someone mentioned above, I have tons of lists that are just for fun and most exclude (gasp!) Long Fangs or have them equipped with not-15 missile launchers. In fact, I love playing casually a lot more because I can play the army the way its meant to be played: with high costing HQ units and retinues that run around trying to live up to their Sagas.

The stigma the SW codex has is completely ridiculous as its just another 5th Ed. codex, just prove people wrong by having fun with it.

^ what he said.

Psienesis wrote:That successor chapter was... ill-fated, to say the least. They haven't tried to create another SW successor Chapter since then, as the stability of the Wulfen Helix is of great concern.

I just cant bring myself to acknowledge that there are only about 2000 SW in the whole galaxy. Sure the Canis Helix is unstable...more unstable than the Blood Angels geneseed? I think mebbe not. Either the SW are pulling a real fast one, or the fluff is broken somehow. So they turn into towering furry monstrosities, is that really worse than fully turned superhuman vampires? Twilight ruined pop culture for the forseeable future but SW and BA are the token Lycan/Vampire 40k connection...embrace that gak. Dont try to tell me SW are unstable because of one failure, if anything the Imperium is tenacious. Hopefully next codex they can go back and retcon out Canis Wolfborn (dumbest gak EVER) make a multi part plastic Wulfen model and replace the wolfwing with something more fitting the overstated wolf, psuedo-Rus fluff and give me some goddamn werewolves! Its real simple, bloodclaw, greywolf, werewolf, longfang if your lucky. Bam! Its not like its the first time something strange entered the fluff for no apparent reason (yes nipple marines and baby carrier dreadknight I'm looking at you), and this one actually used to have models. BAH!
Make a space wolf successor and if anyone challenges you pretend you've had too much to drink and start the murder-make
(it's rather frightening to consider I dont like or even play SW, I don't like or even try at English either so I'll bash that mole before it pops up)

Thanks to all of you for clearing some things up. I think I am going to go UM in the end because I just LOVE how they look. Calgar with some Honor Guard? Gotta look effin' sweet.

Also...nipple marines?
Nevermind, got that one quite quick.

forruner_mercy wrote:Thanks to all of you for clearing some things up. I think I am going to go UM in the end because I just LOVE how they look. Calgar with some Honor Guard? Gotta look effin' sweet.

Also...nipple marines?
Nevermind, got that one quite quick.

Forrunner, I just want you to know that this isn't personal:
I find that your decision to buy and paint your own models as Ultramarines disappoints me greatly. I reserve the right to mock and deride your decision and it's resulting army without restraint. You and I are no longer internet friends and I will forever troll you here, and on every other board you post on.
GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!













P.S. I'm mostly kidding.

AustonT wrote:

Psienesis wrote:That successor chapter was... ill-fated, to say the least. They haven't tried to create another SW successor Chapter since then, as the stability of the Wulfen Helix is of great concern.

I just cant bring myself to acknowledge that there are only about 2000 SW in the whole galaxy. Sure the Canis Helix is unstable...more unstable than the Blood Angels geneseed? I think mebbe not. Either the SW are pulling a real fast one, or the fluff is broken somehow. So they turn into towering furry monstrosities, is that really worse than fully turned superhuman vampires? Twilight ruined pop culture for the forseeable future but SW and BA are the token Lycan/Vampire 40k connection...embrace that gak. Dont try to tell me SW are unstable because of one failure, if anything the Imperium is tenacious. Hopefully next codex they can go back and retcon out Canis Wolfborn (dumbest gak EVER) make a multi part plastic Wulfen model and replace the wolfwing with something more fitting the overstated wolf, psuedo-Rus fluff and give me some goddamn werewolves! Its real simple, bloodclaw, greywolf, werewolf, longfang if your lucky. Bam! Its not like its the first time something strange entered the fluff for no apparent reason (yes nipple marines and baby carrier dreadknight I'm looking at you), and this one actually used to have models. BAH!
Make a space wolf successor and if anyone challenges you pretend you've had too much to drink and start the murder-make
(it's rather frightening to consider I dont like or even play SW, I don't like or even try at English either so I'll bash that mole before it pops up)

Actually there's (give or take) 12,000 SW in the galaxy. 12 companies, approx 1000 marines in a company, and there's also the 13th company which is wandering the warp finishing the job they started on Prospero. But they're not really in the galaxy, so I didn't include them.

CoI wrote:

AustonT wrote:

Psienesis wrote:That successor chapter was... ill-fated, to say the least. They haven't tried to create another SW successor Chapter since then, as the stability of the Wulfen Helix is of great concern.

I just cant bring myself to acknowledge that there are only about 2000 SW in the whole galaxy. Sure the Canis Helix is unstable...more unstable than the Blood Angels geneseed? I think mebbe not. Either the SW are pulling a real fast one, or the fluff is broken somehow. So they turn into towering furry monstrosities, is that really worse than fully turned superhuman vampires? Twilight ruined pop culture for the forseeable future but SW and BA are the token Lycan/Vampire 40k connection...embrace that gak. Dont try to tell me SW are unstable because of one failure, if anything the Imperium is tenacious. Hopefully next codex they can go back and retcon out Canis Wolfborn (dumbest gak EVER) make a multi part plastic Wulfen model and replace the wolfwing with something more fitting the overstated wolf, psuedo-Rus fluff and give me some goddamn werewolves! Its real simple, bloodclaw, greywolf, werewolf, longfang if your lucky. Bam! Its not like its the first time something strange entered the fluff for no apparent reason (yes nipple marines and baby carrier dreadknight I'm looking at you), and this one actually used to have models. BAH!
Make a space wolf successor and if anyone challenges you pretend you've had too much to drink and start the murder-make
(it's rather frightening to consider I dont like or even play SW, I don't like or even try at English either so I'll bash that mole before it pops up)

Actually there's (give or take) 12,000 SW in the galaxy. 12 companies, approx 1000 marines in a company, and there's also the 13th company which is wandering the warp finishing the job they started on Prospero. But they're not really in the galaxy, so I didn't include them.

Pretty sure this has been proven many times on this forum to be false. As per the codex itself, the largest company is around 200?ish marines. There are no companies with 1000 marines. SW have more than a codex chapter, but nowhere near 12000, more like 2000. This does bring up a good point, like AustonT said. Unless most of the SW were wiped out during the heresy, and they never recruited due to the codex being imposed upon them, it doesn't make all that much sense. That is a plausible explanation though.

forruner_mercy wrote:So, a while back had a thread going for a good amount of time asking you guys on Dakka why players seem to have an issue with the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, I got some pretty good responses, most of which revolved around Matt Ward, and they had proof to back their opinions up. Of course, I did get a good amount of the 'they suck cause they are blue and they are poster boys'. That irked me to no end, but I ignored those.

So now I am wondering what it is about the BA and SW chapters that players do not like. Fluff should not be involved here, as I know about the derpy-ness in both. Mostly, I would like to know why people count them, especially the SW, as nooby armies?

Interesting proposition, and we all hate them because of fluff... On table they are overpowered and hard to take down, in fluff there are situations so terrible and unrealistic for 40k that player use that codex as toilet paper...