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Ascalam wrote:Once you get past the SM fanclub..

Legion of the Damned is pretty much it. Even they aren't really a terror unit so much as a pop up out of nowhere and turn the tide of the battle while being creepy unit.

Marines aren't subtle as a rule. They generally would much prefer fighting in 'honorable' combat and gunning you down than scaring you.

Tell that to these guys
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Executioners
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Minotaurs
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Sharks
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Star_Phantoms
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_%28Chapter%29
These guys prove that some chapters do use other tactics.

Asherian Command wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:The Legion of the Damned are the closest thing to a terror squad AFAIK.
Chaplains are pretty fething scary too.

Thank you for finally answering my question.

No, your question was answered in the first page. You just didn't like the answer.

There are no units that specifically utilize 'terror' tactics. Any and all units within an Astartes Chapter can and occasionally do utilize terror tactics.

Ascalam wrote:Once you get past the SM fanclub..

How quaint. What does that make you then? The SM Hate Brigade?

Legion of the Damned is pretty much it. Even they aren't really a terror unit so much as a pop up out of nowhere and turn the tide of the battle while being creepy unit.

That has nothing to do with being a 'terror unit', as you said. Being creepy does not mean they intentionally do this.

Marines aren't subtle as a rule. They generally would much prefer fighting in 'honorable' combat and gunning you down than scaring you.

...
Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, Raptors, White Scars, Red Hunters, and practically every Chapter's Scout Company (off the top of my head) would like a word.

Raven Guard--engage in hit and run attacks, specifically done to overstretch and sever the command structure of an enemy force.
Dark Angels--utilize Terminator Squads deployed via teleportation or drop pod in 'shock' attacks designed to cause overwhelming psychological effects.
So on and so forth.

Terror tactics are a tool within their arsenal. Just like guerilla warfare, shock assaults, drop pod deployments, orbital bombardments, etc.

Not the SM hate brigade no, as I play Black Templars , but if you read the OP he asked if the SM had any units specifically dedicated to the use of terror tactics.

The answers were basically: All SM are super scary 'cos they are SM. SM are all so very Scary

Which didn't accurately answer his question. They do not (unless it's something chapter-specific from a book i've not read, or a specific unit within a chapter mentioned in passing in some BL/FW fluff i've not encountered yet.)

SM don't generally go in for scare tactics and pyschological warfare. I'm sure a couple have more tendency to, but as a rule they don't.


Terror units aren't the same as 'looks scary'.

They may have a word, as they still aren't that subtle. Huge waves of bikes are about as subtle as an ork invasion, the Scythes are all but dead and have little other option but creative thinking and the Dark Angels aren't all that subtle,as far as i recall, just secretive. Dropping terminators on someone isn't at all subtle, but it gets the job done. I'm sure it scares the liver out of the rebel humans they do it to (onl story i recall with them doing this) but a lot of other races would be a deal less intimidated, or just converge on them for a snack/decent fight

Scouts are good for infiltration missions, i'll grant you, but how often do the SM use ONLY scouts on a mission, instead of dropping LR's, artillery and 8 foot loonies in ceramite platemail to back them up?

In general (as i said, not ALWAYS, but in general) the Marines will fight you i open warfare, from inside a variety of heavily armed metal boxes.

The others are FW chapters, I assume, as i've not heard of them before.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Once you get past the SM fanclub..

Legion of the Damned is pretty much it. Even they aren't really a terror unit so much as a pop up out of nowhere and turn the tide of the battle while being creepy unit.

Marines aren't subtle as a rule. They generally would much prefer fighting in 'honorable' combat and gunning you down than scaring you.

Tell that to these guys
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Executioners
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Minotaurs
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Sharks
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Star_Phantoms
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_%28Chapter%29
These guys prove that some chapters do use other tactics.

I'm assuming these are all FW chapters, not GW ones?

Executioners- Don't exactly sound subtle to me, from the Lexi on them. Psychotic yes, subtle no. They still want you dead, in preference to terrified also.
Minotaurs- Same, with a prefence for up close and bloody rather than ranged, but still not subtle at all..
Space Sharks- See Minotaurs, but with slightly better tactical acumen. Retreating to hit somewhere else is tactically smart, but not really subtle. Again, no preference for terrifying you and leaving you alive.
Star Phantoms- Ok. that one i'll grant you. Long range bombardment from space isn't exactly subtle, but they do buck the trend of wanting to get down onto the field and face their enemies direct. They also have a secrecy thing that works a lot better than the DarK Angels (in that no-one knows much about them, rather than not treally caring what the DA know )

Raptors- that i'll also give you, mainly because I like their use of IG as distractions. They aslo seem far more flexible than most, tactically.

Ascalam wrote:SM scare humans,

Yes, that's their purpose.

The Imperium's biggest enemy has always been humans and still is.

Yup.

Got to keep all those heavily armed non-astarted in line somehow

Most xenos don't find SM scary on sight, but IOM citizens hold them in awe and terror as the personification of the Emperor in warath-of-the-gods mode

Ascalam wrote:Not the SM hate brigage no, as I play Black Templars , but if you read the OP he asked if the SM had any units specifically dedicated to the use of terror tactics.

The answers were basically: All SM are super scary 'cos they are SM. SM are all so very Scary

No, they weren't. It was that Space Marines, by and large, are terror units in and of themselves. That's the whole point of the Astartes. They're not line infantry, they're not special forces, they're nothing conventional. They are terror units. Everything about them is meant to intimidate or scare a foe into submission.

Which didn't accurately answer his question. They do not (unless it's something chapter-specific from a book i've not read, or a specific unit within a chapter mentioned in passing in some BL/FW fluff i've not encountered yet.)

SM don't generally go in for scare tactics and pyschological warfare. I'm sure a couple have more tendency to, but as a rule they don't.

...
Uh yes, they very much do.
Why do you think Chaplains are painted black with a skull helmet?
Why do you think the current Mark of Power Armour's helmet vents air out from the mouth grille in a puff of steam?
Why do you think the eyepieces change colors depending on the mode being used by the wearer?
Why do you think Astartes use bright, challenging colors?
That has everything to do with psychological warfare.

Terror units aren't the same as 'looks scary'.

You're right here, but...

They may have a word, as they still aren't that subtle. Huge waves of bikes are about as subtle as an ork invasion, the Scythes are all but dead and have little other option but subtlety and the Dark Angels aren't all that subtle,as far as i recall, just secretive.

Subtlety has nothing at all to do with terror units. You don't scare someone into submission by whispering at them, you scare them into submission by showing them you can strike wherever you please, whenever you want to.

Look up what constitutes "terror tactics" in the real world. Compare that to the common methods of planetary assaults done by the Astartes, see how much of it is terror tactics.

Scouts are good for infiltration missions, i'll grant you, but how often do the SM use ONLY scouts on a mission, instead of dropping LR's, artillery and 8 foot loonies in ceramite platemail to back them up?

ONLY Scouts get used on missions quite often.
They pave the way for teleport assaults and prepare drop zones. Scouts generally operate by themselves, with little to no visual contact with the Astartes proper during the course of a campaign. They remain in contact via vox mostly, but you'll occasionally have the scouts return to the main force so that they can hand-deliver important information.

In general (as i said, not ALWAYS, but in general) the Marines will fight you i open warfare, from inside a variety of heavily armed metal boxes.

No, they won't. In general, Marines on the tabletop, when being used by players in a rules set that encourages the use of heavily armed metal boxes.
Land Raiders are rare. Stupidly rare, in fact. Astartes deploying mechanized forces planetside as well is fairly rare, with most deployments consisting of Thunderhawks or Drop Pods.

The others are FW chapters, I assume, as i've not heard of them before.

Raven Guard, Red Hunters, and Raptors? Seriously?
The Red Hunters are a relatively well-known Chapter with ties to the Inquisition, but I'll grant you that they're not entirely famous.
The Raven Guard are one of the Founding Legions however, and the Raptors are one of their few Successors and have featured in tons of artwork.

They make Tau piss their pants

So does one grot holding a water pistol with a flag glued to it that says 'bang!'

Ascalam wrote:

Most xenos don't find SM scary on sight

Wanna bet?

There's a reason that Vect used Space Marines as his instrument to decapitate Commoragh's leadership for his power grab.
There's a reason that the Eldar are wary of interacting with the Astartes--and it's not because they're afraid of falling in love.
There's a reason that the Tau had to utilize ridiculous amounts of Crisis Suits and rush the production of the Rail Rifle.
There's a reason that the Orks fighting Shrike jump at shadows.

The only races you're right about "not finding SM scary on sight" is the Necrons and Tyranids--two forces which are well known for not being entirely logical, but driven on by an intellect that cares nothing for its minions.

Necrons -no
Tyranids -no
Orks in general don't fear marines. Shrike may be a special case (link to fluff?). Even if they are jumping at shadows around him they aren't exactly doing so around every Marine they run across. Ork Warbosses like wearing SM helmet bannerpoles, because they are nice and colorful.
Daemons (barring possibly GK) - no
Dark Eldar don't fear them. They capture them to use as pit slaves They respect them as being decent fighters, but they don't run screaming from them on sight.

Vect used marines because they would be unlikely to say 'c'est la vie' about losing a battlebarge, and would be dumb/ballsy enough to come into into cammorragh to get it back. The story doesn't seem to mention too many DE fleeing in terror or even being terribly apprehensive Perhaps i'm missing it? The Marines pulling back to regroup is mentioned, but i'm not seeing anything about the DE considering them to be anything other than an interesting way to spend an otherwise dull sunday afternoon, after the initial startlement of a fleet dropping by unannounced passed.

Eldar think Marines are dumb, xenocidal asshats. They aren't terrified by the very thought of them

That's the major xeno races, barring the Tau, who are jumpy about most everyone, and for good reason.

In general the marines are seen as capable warriors/worthy enemies, not as scary boogeymen.

Ascalam wrote:Necrons -no
Tyranids -no

These aren't afraid of anything, so it's pointless to even bring them up. So why did you?

Orks in general don't fear marines. Shrike may be a special case (link to fluff?). Even if they are jumping at shadows around him they aren't exactly doing so around every Marine they run across. Ork Warbosses like wearing SM helmet bannerpoles, because they are nice and colorful.

The Raven Guard, period, are causing this reaction in Orks. Read the SM Codex or IA8. Both detail the fact that Shrike has made a point of having his men(and Guardsmen serving alongside them) pull Ork Teef, etc.

Ork Warbosses "like wearing SM helmet bannerpoles" not because they are nice and colorful--but because Astartes are considered "Dead 'Ard" by the Orks. But the "boyz in black"(Templars and Raven Guard both) are particularly infamous amongst the Orks.

Daemons (barring possibly GK) - no

Same as Tyranids and Necrons. Why do you even bring these up?

Dark Eldar don't fear them. They capture them to use as pit slaves They respect them as being decent fighters, but they don't run screaming from them on sight.

And you have the gall to say the SM fanclub is ridiculous...

Read "Tales of Heresy", specifically Mike Lee's 'Wolf at the Door' short story. A small force of Space Wolves countered a Dark Eldar force that had been raiding and harvesting a human world for centuries.

Vect used marines because they would be unlikely to say 'c'est la vie' about losing a battlebarge, and would be dumb/ballsy enough to come into into Commorragh to get it back.

Bahahaha.
It's also because the Dark Eldar are well aware of what an Astartes force on the warpath can do.

The story doesn't seem to mention too many DE fleeing in terror or even being terribly apprehensive Perhaps i'm missing it?

Or maybe you don't understand the idea behind terror tactics. That's what I'm starting to believe...
Terror tactics, in general, are terrible when done subtly. The point of terror tactics is the threat of or use of violence, and ensuring that the fact you have done these things is quite well-known.

The Marines pulling back to regroup is mentioned, but i'm not seeing anything about the DE considering them to be anything other than an interesting way to spend an otherwise dull sunday afternoon, after the initial startlement of a fleet dropping by unannounced passed.

You mean other than the absurd amount of security they put into holding a single ship? Quite, that's just an "interesting way to spend an otherwise dull Sunday afternoon".

Eldar think Marines are dumb, xenocidal asshats. They aren't terrified by the very thought of them

You mean other than avoiding Astartes home and recruiting worlds, avoiding major concentrations of Astartes forces, and Craftworlds remaining constantly on the move so the Imperium can't use the Astartes to bring them down.

Quite clearly--the Eldar think they're dumb brutes. That's why they've devoted so much time and energy to staying the hell out of their way...

That's the major xeno races, barring the Tau, who are jumpy about most everyone, and for good reason.

No, the Tau really aren't jumpy about most everyone. See how they react to the Necrons and Dark Eldar both.

In general the marines are seen as capable warriors/worthy enemies, not as scary boogeymen.

Wrong.

"In general" the Astartes are seen as heralding the end of a world. When an engagement escalation sees the Astartes being deployed en masse--it's time for the enemy to get the hell out of Dodge.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Necrons -no
Tyranids -no

These aren't afraid of anything, so it's pointless to even bring them up. So why did you?

Orks in general don't fear marines. Shrike may be a special case (link to fluff?). Even if they are jumping at shadows around him they aren't exactly doing so around every Marine they run across. Ork Warbosses like wearing SM helmet bannerpoles, because they are nice and colorful.

The Raven Guard, period, are causing this reaction in Orks. Read the SM Codex or IA8. Both detail the fact that Shrike has made a point of having his men(and Guardsmen serving alongside them) pull Ork Teef, etc.

Ork Warbosses "like wearing SM helmet bannerpoles" not because they are nice and colorful--but because Astartes are considered "Dead 'Ard" by the Orks. But the "boyz in black"(Templars and Raven Guard both) are particularly infamous amongst the Orks.

Daemons (barring possibly GK) - no

Same as Tyranids and Necrons. Why do you even bring these up?

Dark Eldar don't fear them. They capture them to use as pit slaves They respect them as being decent fighters, but they don't run screaming from them on sight.

And you have the gall to say the SM fanclub is ridiculous...

Read "Tales of Heresy", specifically Mike Lee's 'Wolf at the Door' short story. A small force of Space Wolves countered a Dark Eldar force that had been raiding and harvesting a human world for centuries.

Vect used marines because they would be unlikely to say 'c'est la vie' about losing a battlebarge, and would be dumb/ballsy enough to come into into Commorragh to get it back.

Bahahaha.
It's also because the Dark Eldar are well aware of what an Astartes force on the warpath can do.

The story doesn't seem to mention too many DE fleeing in terror or even being terribly apprehensive Perhaps i'm missing it?

Or maybe you don't understand the idea behind terror tactics. That's what I'm starting to believe...
Terror tactics, in general, are terrible when done subtly. The point of terror tactics is the threat of or use of violence, and ensuring that the fact you have done these things is quite well-known.

The Marines pulling back to regroup is mentioned, but i'm not seeing anything about the DE considering them to be anything other than an interesting way to spend an otherwise dull sunday afternoon, after the initial startlement of a fleet dropping by unannounced passed.

You mean other than the absurd amount of security they put into holding a single ship? Quite, that's just an "interesting way to spend an otherwise dull Sunday afternoon".

Eldar think Marines are dumb, xenocidal asshats. They aren't terrified by the very thought of them

You mean other than avoiding Astartes home and recruiting worlds, avoiding major concentrations of Astartes forces, and Craftworlds remaining constantly on the move so the Imperium can't use the Astartes to bring them down.

Quite clearly--the Eldar think they're dumb brutes. That's why they've devoted so much time and energy to staying the hell out of their way...

That's the major xeno races, barring the Tau, who are jumpy about most everyone, and for good reason.

No, the Tau really aren't jumpy about most everyone. See how they react to the Necrons and Dark Eldar both.

In general the marines are seen as capable warriors/worthy enemies, not as scary boogeymen.

Wrong.

"In general" the Astartes are seen as heralding the end of a world. When an engagement escalation sees the Astartes being deployed en masse--it's time for the enemy to get the hell out of Dodge.

I didn't, you did

I included them out of completeness. They are Xenos that aren't scared by SM. They add to the fact that, as i stated, most xenos aren't scared of SM. They are xenos that aren't scared

The Raven Giuard are still not all SM In general orks think of SM as a good 'ard fight, not something to be scared of. You seem to be confusing them respecting SM as a tough fight and being scared of them. They are hard to kill, and dead killy, so theres a cachet in wearing trophies of them.

'Dark Eldar don't fear them. They capture them to use as pit slaves They respect them as being decent fighters, but they don't run screaming from them on sight.

Ascalam wrote:
I didn't, you did

Not really, but whatever.

I included them out of completeness. They are Xenos that aren't scared by SM. They add to the fact that, as i stated, most xenos aren't scared of SM. They are xenos that aren't scared

They're Xenos that have no emotions, period.
You're also forgetting that Daemons are not Xenos, so you're wrong on that account too.

The Raven Guard are still not all SM In general orks think of SM as a good 'ard fight, not something to be scared of. You seem to be confusing them respecting SM as a tough fight and being scared of them. They are hard to kill, and dead killy, so there's a cachet in wearing trophies of them.

And you seem to be confusing the fact that Orks of an entire sector are being terrorized by Space Marines as not being Marines using terror tactics.

'Dark Eldar don't fear them. They capture them to use as pit slaves They respect them as being decent fighters, but they don't run screaming from them on sight.

And you have the gall to say the SM fanclub is ridiculous...'

- Find me a quote where they do then, and read the DE codex while you are at it. They value SM as pit slaves.

I Think i'll leave this here, as the posts are geting eye-hurtingly long, and you also are operating under the assumption you are right despite proofs to the contrary.

It'll just devolve into namecalling and mudslinging from here.

Point of note on the above strawman. I didn't say DE are immune to fear. I said they aren't scared by SM. They react to an invasion of their home plane with all nearby forces in much the same way a SM chapter-planet would if a big-ass planar gate opened up in the sky and aliens started dropping through. Unless you are saying the SM would be overreacting due to fear

You've provided no proof actually. You just say that "X is immune to fear", when the statement you were replying to was saying that Space Marines do utilize terror tactics--since you insisted that everything they do is "honorable" combat.

If you'll actually READ other poples posts once in a while it might help.

I said that SM in general prefer to fight directly, as a rule.

I didn't say the ALL do ALL the time. I've conceded to other posts that SM can be subtler than usual on occasion, if you'll care to actually check instead of being your usual knee jerk jerk.

I've not said that anything bar Necrons, Daemons and Nids is immune to fear. You confirmed these yourself

I've provided a reference to the ork codex, with a story showing the usual ork attitude towards fighting SM. I can provide plenty of others if you wanted them.

I';ve provided a reference to a dark eldar fleet sitting right inside a SM controlled sysytem, blthely ignoring them as they went about their business. Not exactly in terror are they..

I've said that they aren't as a race scared of SM in general, just by looking at them. there may be specific cases of an area where they are, but not as a race-wide pehnonenon.

You're strawmanning again, and i'm done with that BS.

And a guardsmen does't fear a daemon until he is staring one in the face, at that point he promptly craps himself/tears his eyes out/runs in horror.

Space marines on the battlefield cause fear in all enemies that can feel it... how that fear manifests itself is another matter entirely. To say for instance that a space marine is without fear is nonsense, however he is not going to run in horror of the giant ork boss in front of him, he is going to grasp his boltgun a little tighter and show that vile xenos why it should fear him instead.

Ascalam wrote:If you'll actually READ other poples posts once in a while it might help.

I said that SM in general prefer to fight directly, as a rule.

Which is not true. Astartes are pragmatists, by and large. They have no problems with stand up fights, but it's not necessary all the time.

Read "Tales of Heresy", specifically Mike Lee's 'Wolf at the Door' short story. A small force of Space Wolves countered a Dark Eldar force that had been raiding and harvesting a human world for centuries.

Is that the one where 10 Spess Wolves slaughter their way through a good 1000 DE...because of their awesome Spess Wolf Wolviness?

You mean other than avoiding Astartes home and recruiting worlds, avoiding major concentrations of Astartes forces, and Craftworlds remaining constantly on the move so the Imperium can't use the Astartes to bring them down.

Except when Eldar forces face Space Marines completely head-on...and even wipe them out on their homeworlds

Retribution wrote:

Read "Tales of Heresy", specifically Mike Lee's 'Wolf at the Door' short story. A small force of Space Wolves countered a Dark Eldar force that had been raiding and harvesting a human world for centuries.

Is that the one where 10 Spess Wolves slaughter their way through a good 1000 DE...because of their awesome Spess Wolf Wolviness?

Over the course of months of guerilla warfare, and training a militia to fight alongside them.

Yeah, clearly it was "because of their awesome Spess Wolf Wolviness".

You mean other than avoiding Astartes home and recruiting worlds, avoiding major concentrations of Astartes forces, and Craftworlds remaining constantly on the move so the Imperium can't use the Astartes to bring them down.

Except when Eldar forces face Space Marines completely head-on...and even wipe them out on their homeworlds

So never.

So basically Sternguard or Legion of the Damned i could use to show a squad that is meant specifically to hit hard and scare the hell out of their enemies? I will be doing this lots of modeling opportunities just have to find alot of skulls and alot of markings that aren't daemonic.

Kanluwen wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Read "Tales of Heresy", specifically Mike Lee's 'Wolf at the Door' short story. A small force of Space Wolves countered a Dark Eldar force that had been raiding and harvesting a human world for centuries.

Is that the one where 10 Spess Wolves slaughter their way through a good 1000 DE...because of their awesome Spess Wolf Wolviness?

Over the course of months of guerilla warfare, and training a militia to fight alongside them.

Yeah, clearly it was "because of their awesome Spess Wolf Wolviness".

You mean other than avoiding Astartes home and recruiting worlds, avoiding major concentrations of Astartes forces, and Craftworlds remaining constantly on the move so the Imperium can't use the Astartes to bring them down.

Except when Eldar forces face Space Marines completely head-on...and even wipe them out on their homeworlds

So never.

Wolves beating DE at guerrilla warfare and hit and run tactics? Yea, that sounds like Space Wolf wankery to me, oh well; I suppose it's better than unleashing the inner wolf-wulfen-woof to defeat some mustached Dark Eldar in a climatic final battle

And I totally forgot that The Invaders were only reduced to 300 marines instead of being entirely wiped out, because we can't let those dirty xenos beat spess mehreens

I would just like to point out that the eldar don't fly about on their ships because they're afraid of marines.... that's a little general.
They fly about to avoid a lot of enemies. They are a dying race, so it's a smarter move on their behalf.

I also have no knowledge of them invading a marine training/ arming planet, because a) what would the eldar get out of it? and b) As a dwindling race it'd be a waste of lives, also c) it probably never happened

Eldar warriors aren't afraid of much on the battlefield(save for guardians ie.Civillians with a gun) when they get overtaken by their lust for war. They just avoid fighting unless it's necessary.

MikZor wrote:I would just like to point out that the eldar don't fly about on their ships because they're afraid of marines.... that's a little general.
They fly about to avoid a lot of enemies. They are a dying race, so it's a smarter move on their behalf.

I also have no knowledge of them invading a marine training/ arming planet, because a) what would the eldar get out of it? and b) As a dwindling race it'd be a waste of lives, also c) it probably never happened

Eldar warriors aren't afraid of much on the battlefield(save for guardians ie.Civillians with a gun) when they get overtaken by their lust for war. They just avoid fighting unless it's necessary.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invaders